Coach's Film Breakdown: 8 Sacks and a Negative Run

Russ Smith

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Hey, guys, do you think having Fitz line up in the backfield and motioning out is effective?

I do, if for no other reason than to make the defender run through traffic.

It's also supposed to make it easier to identify what coverage they're in.
 

Mulli

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I do, if for no other reason than to make the defender run through traffic.

It's also supposed to make it easier to identify what coverage they're in.
Thanks, I know it is a question for a fifth grader, I was just wondering... :)
 

Chopper0080

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Thanks for confirming so things that I thought I saw with Kolb in protection. I really hope with more games he can develop a better sense of the pocket because he is making things harder on both himself and an already overmatched line at times.
 

Duckjake

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CardsSunsDbacks

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I would at least like to see WiPo against a run defense that isn't 1st in the NFL before proclaiming him "a total waste of space". For that matter part of the reason this team has had very little success running the football is because they have faced a good run defense in every game to this point. The next 2 games will be a good opportunity for out run game to show that it can be at least respectable considering the Rams and Bills are among the worst run defenses to this point in the season.
 

Darkside

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Hey, guys, do you think having Fitz line up in the backfield and motioning out is effective?

I think it's effective. I think it's already hard enough figuring out where Fitz is going to be and he's the only guy on offense that gets game-planned for, so I think lining him up there just creates another area of confusion.
 

crisper57

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I think it's effective. I think it's already hard enough figuring out where Fitz is going to be and he's the only guy on offense that gets game-planned for, so I think lining him up there just creates another area of confusion.

And it probably helps Kolb ID their coverage scheme (man/zone) because Fitz is the offensive player the Defense is keying.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I think it's effective. I think it's already hard enough figuring out where Fitz is going to be and he's the only guy on offense that gets game-planned for, so I think lining him up there just creates another area of confusion.
Also when he lines up in the back field he can motion either direction to either the slot or the outside. It makes the defense have to play him more honest and we all know what happens when he isn't effectively double covered.
 
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kerouac9

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I'm re-watching the first series now, and Rob Housler is a brutal run blocker. They're running a lot of 2TE sets in this opening series. No one's been near Kolb until the first sack that ends the drive.

Second series no one gets near Kolb on the deep attempt that Floyd drops. Kolb has time to throw on 3rd down and just misses the strike zone on a pass to Fitz. Actually does a good job of bouncing up into the pocket to buy a moment but has to alter his release point to throw around a safety on a six-man rush.

Third series opens with what I guess is a screen pass, but WiPo ends up in front of Snyder when he gets the ball (WTF??). What I'm seeing is run formations on first and second down and then the spread look on third and medium. Second down is a five-man blitz and Kolb stands up through it--good blocking. 2nd and 6 and Kolb runs backward again even though there's a pocket to step up into, dump off to Williams.

4th drive begins in Max Protect because it's a deep pass with both WRs and a TE running verticals. 1st down Kolb's clean.

2-minute drive begins with a clean attempt. 2nd pass to Floyd ends up with Kolb getting creamed, but he had time to throw. 3rd pass to Floyd there's no one within 8 feet of Kolb. Pass to Roberts Kolb stands tall and delivers the ball and gets a little jostled afterward. On the pick there's no one within 6 feet of Kolb and he still delivers a dumb pick. It's possible there was a miscommunication on the route, and Kolb was expecting a comeback or something.

You can see below that he had an ideal pocket to pass from.

Look, believe what the idiot #4 broadcast team on CBS thinks, or what a bunch of guys in the game thread who are going to blame the OL anyway thinks. I was at the game, and never in the first half did I think, "Man, Kolb's getting killed out there." Watching the tape, it's difficult to argue he's under duress when he's getting protecting from five-man rushes. Yes, the two times he was pressured in the first half he ended up getting sacked. But he wasn't under duress the entire first half.
 

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Russ Smith

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Look, believe what the idiot #4 broadcast team on CBS thinks, or what a bunch of guys in the game thread who are going to blame the OL anyway thinks. I was at the game, and never in the first half did I think, "Man, Kolb's getting killed out there." Watching the tape, it's difficult to argue he's under duress when he's getting protecting from five-man rushes. Yes, the two times he was pressured in the first half he ended up getting sacked. But he wasn't under duress the entire first half.

So your opinion is of the 20 pass attempts in the first half there was 2 where they had any pressure?

Ok no point continuing we're never going to agree.

You say people hate the OL, I say you blame Kolb for it, we're not going to agree. you told me Monday that he was responsible for at least half the sacks and you hadn't seen a second of coaches film when you said that.

We both have biases, and btw I agree on housler, he can't run block it's annoying because I am tired of watching heap and lately King catch the ball and fall down, I want to see a TE who can stretch the defense. But he is such a hit and miss blocker(more miss) that he's making it very hard to play him more.

the OL isn't good enough to carry a mediocre run blocker.
 

Duckjake

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I'm re-watching the first series now, and Rob Housler is a brutal run blocker. They're running a lot of 2TE sets in this opening series. No one's been near Kolb until the first sack that ends the drive.

:confused:
 
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kerouac9

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So your opinion is of the 20 pass attempts in the first half there was 2 where they had any pressure?

Ok no point continuing we're never going to agree.

You say people hate the OL, I say you blame Kolb for it, we're not going to agree. you told me Monday that he was responsible for at least half the sacks and you hadn't seen a second of coaches film when you said that.

We both have biases, and btw I agree on housler, he can't run block it's annoying because I am tired of watching heap and lately King catch the ball and fall down, I want to see a TE who can stretch the defense. But he is such a hit and miss blocker(more miss) that he's making it very hard to play him more.

the OL isn't good enough to carry a mediocre run blocker.

It's not my opinion, it's the fact of what is on the screen in front of me. Maybe three times, because once he ran backward when there was room to step up. Four times if you count the throw that was influenced by a blitzing safety that was blocked well. Don't know what to tell you.

Look: My opinion is what it is. But when I look at the film I see what's there. Your statement is that everyone said on the game thread that he was under duress the entire first half. I'm telling you what is actually on the tape, and giving you the shots from the film itself.

I can't make you see what's there or believe what's there. What's there in the run game is that it was relatively productive, but we went away from it because we got down two scores and because we didn't have the personnel to keep running it with Heap out and Housler being a liability.

Do you think I'm seeing max protection and just not telling you? Really?
 

Russ Smith

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It's not my opinion, it's the fact of what is on the screen in front of me. Maybe three times, because once he ran backward when there was room to step up. Four times if you count the throw that was influenced by a blitzing safety that was blocked well. Don't know what to tell you.

Look: My opinion is what it is. But when I look at the film I see what's there. Your statement is that everyone said on the game thread that he was under duress the entire first half. I'm telling you what is actually on the tape, and giving you the shots from the film itself.

I can't make you see what's there or believe what's there. What's there in the run game is that it was relatively productive, but we went away from it because we got down two scores and because we didn't have the personnel to keep running it with Heap out and Housler being a liability.

Do you think I'm seeing max protection and just not telling you? Really?

again, we're not going to agree, and it appears neither do some members of the Cards agree since from what they're telling Urban, Massie was overwhelmed and Massie himself seemed to agree with it.

maybe he's just taking one for the team, didn't want to throw Kolb under the bus so he just agreed that wake destroyed him, seems unlikely though.

Urban talks to the coaches, he pointed out how in the first half Massie was blocking Wake by himself most of the time, and that he got better in the 2nd half. If he was actually playing well the whole time and it was just Kolb's fault, i kind of doubt massie would have made the comments he did.

We don't agree, if you can't accept that I don't know what to tell you.
 
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kerouac9

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Second half possessions:

Kolb gets first pass away clean. Second pass has a blitzing corner who creams Kolb after he gets the ball away. Third attempt (completion to Housler for 13 yards) he runs away from a blitz up the middle that gets picked up, but Snyder can't sit there all day. Really good throw on the run across his body. Very cool looking throwing window (pic 1).

No pressure on the next attempt. No pressure on the 25 yard pass to Roberts (pic 2). No pressure on the incomplete attempt to Fitz at the 3; poor ball placement. No pressure on the following completion to Fitz to the 3. No pressure on the TD catch to Fitz (Massie did a great job leveling the linebacker or safety on that play.

Next series (starts at the 2): Kolb isn't under pressure on the first incompletion to Fitz, and has a good pocket on the 9 yard completion to Doucet on 3rd down.

Kolb has good pockets through three quarters. Almost all of the time. During the game I was annoyed that Kolb was looking so flat-footed. He gets pressured and rolls right on the 11 yard completion to Fitz. No pressure on the following 13-yard completion to Fitz.

Pic 3 is the pocket at the release moment on Kolb's incomplete pass to Floyd at 1:53 in the 3rd quarter. It's what the pocket more or less looks like for 70% of Kolb's attempts or better. Don't know when this heap of pressure starts coming and overwhelming Kolb, but it doesn't show up through three quarters. :shrug:
 

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kerouac9

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again, we're not going to agree, and it appears neither do some members of the Cards agree since from what they're telling Urban, Massie was overwhelmed and Massie himself seemed to agree with it.

maybe he's just taking one for the team, didn't want to throw Kolb under the bus so he just agreed that wake destroyed him, seems unlikely though.

Urban talks to the coaches, he pointed out how in the first half Massie was blocking Wake by himself most of the time, and that he got better in the 2nd half. If he was actually playing well the whole time and it was just Kolb's fault, i kind of doubt massie would have made the comments he did.

We don't agree, if you can't accept that I don't know what to tell you.

Massie was beaten twice for sacks in the first quarter. He lost one-on-one battles with Wake in the first half that didn't result in pressures or sacks.

I don't know how many coaches you expect for Urban to have talked to in the two hours between the final gun and this quote:

Now, Kolb can’t get sacked eight times. Some of that was him holding the ball, and some was the offensive line. Rookie right tackle Bobby Massie was overwhelmed by Cam Wake in the first half, although he did better in the second half (Wake still had 4½ sacks.) Mostly, though, when there is time, I still think Kolb looks pretty good in the pocket.

Some of that is editorial. Sportswriters' job is only in part to tell us what's true; the other part is to create a narrative. Urban suffers from recency bias as much as anyone else. The Cards gave up 4 sacks in the 4th quarter; maybe that and the "OUR OL SUCKS" tweets he gets all game long has an effect on what he says immediately after the game is over.
 

Russ Smith

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Massie was beaten twice for sacks in the first quarter. He lost one-on-one battles with Wake in the first half that didn't result in pressures or sacks.

I don't know how many coaches you expect for Urban to have talked to in the two hours between the final gun and this quote:



Some of that is editorial. Sportswriters' job is only in part to tell us what's true; the other part is to create a narrative. Urban suffers from recency bias as much as anyone else. The Cards gave up 4 sacks in the 4th quarter; maybe that and the "OUR OL SUCKS" tweets he gets all game long has an effect on what he says immediately after the game is over.

So to summarize, the board hates the OL, I'm biased towards Kolb, Urban has recency bias and the only unbiased person on the board is you. Massie lied about having a bad game to protect kolb.

Got it.
 
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kerouac9

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So to summarize, the board hates the OL, I'm biased towards Kolb, Urban has recency bias and the only unbiased person on the board is you. Massie lied about having a bad game to protect kolb.

Got it.

Yes, the board will always think that the OL is bad, and most fans of every NFL team thinks their OL is bad.

Yes, you're biased toward Kolb.

Everyone has a recency bias and gets colored by what they hear over and over. Urban probably knows less about football than many of the fans on the board (and I like Darren).

Haven't seen a quote from Massie saying that he had a bad game in protecting Kolb, but I'd guess that if you give up three or four sacks, you're going to feel like you had a bad game. The ideal number of sacks you want to give up in a game is zero.

I'm not unbiased. But I'm being objective about what I see when the film is right in front of me. I'm not hearing other voices from idiot announcers; I'm telling you what's right in front of my eyes. No fogginess of memory, no remembrance of what happened last. Just what's actually there.

You KNOW that the OL gave up 3 sacks in the first half. You THINK YOU REMEMBER Kolb being harrassed the entire time. That part you THINK doesn't have any basis in reality.
 

conraddobler

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It seems to me that Kolb does not step up in the pocket as well as he should, I've seen many times the pocket is there and he's about to get squished by an edge rusher and all he has to do to buy a little more time is step up and he'll run backwards.
 

Russ Smith

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Yes, the board will always think that the OL is bad, and most fans of every NFL team thinks their OL is bad.

Yes, you're biased toward Kolb.

Everyone has a recency bias and gets colored by what they hear over and over. Urban probably knows less about football than many of the fans on the board (and I like Darren).

Haven't seen a quote from Massie saying that he had a bad game in protecting Kolb, but I'd guess that if you give up three or four sacks, you're going to feel like you had a bad game. The ideal number of sacks you want to give up in a game is zero.

I'm not unbiased. But I'm being objective about what I see when the film is right in front of me. I'm not hearing other voices from idiot announcers; I'm telling you what's right in front of my eyes. No fogginess of memory, no remembrance of what happened last. Just what's actually there.

You KNOW that the OL gave up 3 sacks in the first half. You THINK YOU REMEMBER Kolb being harrassed the entire time. That part you THINK doesn't have any basis in reality.

Like when you said with total confidence Sherman didn't suit up right?
 
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kerouac9

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Like when you said with total confidence Sherman didn't suit up right?

Kind of. And then I was given evidence that I was mistaken, checked my facts, and then admitted I was wrong.

Funny how that works, right?
 

Darkside

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You know what's funny? Claiming they didn't get much pressure on Kolb when they had 8 sacks. That's pretty funny.
 
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kerouac9

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You know what's funny? Claiming they didn't get much pressure on Kolb when they had 8 sacks. That's pretty funny.

3 sacks in the first half, 5 in the 4th quarter. They're all charted in the initial post on this thread. :mulli:
 

Darkside

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3 sacks in the first half, 5 in the 4th quarter. They're all charted in the initial post on this thread. :mulli:

I'm not sure your point. My point is with 8 sacks, there's tons of blame to go around, from the Oline to Kolb. Giving up 8 sacks indicates a serious problem in more than just one area. Massie gave up 4 by himself to Wake. Wake was his responsibility--not Kolb's, not Housler's, it was Massie's. He got blown up all day. Said as much. Couple them sacks you can probably pin on Kolb making errors or not getting the ball out fast enough. Couple were probably coverage sacks. Point is, it isn't any one thing. Not with 8 freaking sacks.
 
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kerouac9

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I'm not sure your point. My point is with 8 sacks, there's tons of blame to go around, from the Oline to Kolb. Giving up 8 sacks indicates a serious problem in more than just one area. Massie gave up 4 by himself to Wake. Wake was his responsibility--not Kolb's, not Housler's, it was Massie's. He got blown up all day. Said as much. Couple them sacks you can probably pin on Kolb making errors or not getting the ball out fast enough. Couple were probably coverage sacks. Point is, it isn't any one thing. Not with 8 freaking sacks.

And... that's exactly why I wanted to look at the eight sacks in detail, and then I did that.

Did you just come in here to lob some bombs? He didn't "get blown up all day". On the vast majority of plays he did pretty well for himself. He's not going to say that in public, of course.
 

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