Concerns about state of the NBBA

Toner2u

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I have been a Suns fan for almost 30 years and while I feel slighted by what has happened during this series and by the suspension fiasco, I also feel so proud of the efforts this team has put forth.

While the issue about the suspensions is being made that Amare and Boris left the vicinity of the bench area, I don't feel that is the issue. The crux comes down to whether they left 'during' the altercation. Everyone seems to be focusing on what the definitions of altercation and vicinity are and how this should be applied.

However, while I would contend that they obviously left the bench area, I think the video clearly shows they left when the foul occurred before the altercation actually occurred. If, as Commissioner Stern and Stu Jackson contend, they left during the altercation, then the question must be asked if the foul constituted the beginning of the altercation or if the altercation began when the players came together including Bell and others. Nash hadn't gotten up and proceeded towards Horry until after Amare and Boris had already left the bench area.

Therefore, if the hard foul constituted the beginning of the altercation, then in order to set a true precedent then the NBBA (National BasketBRAWL Association) would have to review all previous games to make sure that the rule has been enforced consistently. Stern, who sadly acted as a petulant child during his interview with Dan Patrick, contends that Amare and Boris ran to the altercation 'during' the altercation. However, my contention is that they left the bench area after the foul and 'BEFORE' the altercation had actually occurred. At that point the only thing to have occurred would have been the foul. There is NO proof that they left after the altercation had commenced. Once the altercation began they actually backed off and stayed away from the situation. If the NBBA wishes to enforce a suspension for a player leaving the bench area for normal action on the court, whether a foul or some appearance of a foul or concern, then not only should Duncan and Bowen be suspended, but again the NBBA would have to go back and review any time a player has left the bench area, in all games since the rule was enacted, when a ‘foul’ or ‘hard foul’ was committed. Even if they were to say that Horry's foul was out of the normal and constituted the beginning of the altercation, then they would again be required to go back and make sure that this precedent has been consistently enforced.

In fact the NBBA should be commending them for their actions in that they left to access the condition of their comrade at which point no altercation had yet began. Once they recognized that an altercation was in fact occurring then they backed away in order for the incident not to escalate. The sad situation is that by allowing the rough conditions of the playoff season to continue and escalate the real abhorrent characters are in fact Stern, Jackson and the officials who allow this situation to have occurred by not cracking down on the playing conditions during this and other playoff series. In fact this created the environment that escalated in the abhorrent behavior by Horry. How sad that Horry would have committed this foul and not checked to make sure his victim was okay, which is what Nash did when he saw Parker go down in game one. Further the travesty is compounded by his claim of being a victim and biased against. While Horry was suspended for two games, Stern should have further validated how despicable Horry’s behavior was and not have put the blame on Amare and Boris.

Additionally, what is so ironic is that in saying that Stern and Jackson had no choice but to abide by the ‘letter’ of the law, in fact the ironic thing is that they have proven their bias in that by the letter of the law, the suns players never left the bench ‘during’ but rather ‘before’ the altercation occurred. Therefore, he could have and should have used this as a reason not to suspend them. If he truly wanted to send a message he would have suspended Duncan and Bowen and then no one would EVER leave the bench area for any reason. Consequently, they have sent message that is not at all consistent and further confusing.

The suns have shown so much class during this series I would like to express my appreciation for watching their efforts and hope that the class they have shown will set an example of how the game should be played and how beautiful the game can still be. I truly feel confident that they will put forth an amazing effort and all the trials and tribulations of this series will be well worth the rings they will slip on their fingers when they finally win the championship that their classy efforts so duly deserve. I wish to commend their efforts and will continue to back and support them. Go Suns!

Loyal fan, Toner2u
 

azirish

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A few people have brought it up, but it is extremely hard to get the exact timeline on a second by second basis. The fact that neither Stern nor Stu Jackson gave a detailed analysis makes me think that that all they looked at was what the Suns players did rather than when.
 

D-Dogg

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I'm 99% sure it doesn't matter WHEN they got up, but that they were on the court during an altercation. They shouldn't be on the court to begin with, but if they are on the court, not in the game, and an altercation breaks out they are in violation of the rule.

Add to it that Amare took a step towards the shovefest before being pulled back and they really didn't have a choice on him. I thought they'd be lenient on Diaw though, who went back immediately when the shoving broke out, but I guess technically he was still away from the bench then.
 

azirish

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I'm 99% sure it doesn't matter WHEN they got up, but that they were on the court during an altercation. They shouldn't be on the court to begin with, but if they are on the court, not in the game, and an altercation breaks out they are in violation of the rule.

Add to it that Amare took a step towards the shovefest before being pulled back and they really didn't have a choice on him. I thought they'd be lenient on Diaw though, who went back immediately when the shoving broke out, but I guess technically he was still away from the bench then.

If it wrong to go onto court BEFORE an altercation, then the action of going onto the court when an altercation is possible is a punishable crime and Duncan should have been suspended. Duncan had no way of knowing if there was going to be an altercation or not.

It is simply a weird reading of the rule to say that being on the court is punishable for something that happened later without requiring a player to be psychic.

If it is as you say that Amare made a move toward the altercations and that (and only that) action is what should be penalized, then why was Diaw penalized since he pulled back as soon as he could see there was an altercation.
 
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Toner2u

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Problem with this rule

And so wee see the problem with this nebulous rule. It is entirely left up to speculation and not a 'letter of the law'. The rule was written lacking any real definition. It says that 'during' an 'altercation' and does not even address what should happen if a player was already on the court.

Further there is not proof that they left during or before and can't validate either. Consequently if this was a true court case there would be no letter of the law that would provide sufficient criteria that would convict them.

THis is why it's such a joke. Love to get a real lawyers view on if they would be convicted in a court of law.
 

D-Dogg

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If it wrong to go onto court BEFORE an altercation, then the action of going onto the court when an altercation is possible is a punishable crime and Duncan should have been suspended. Duncan had no way of knowing if there was going to be an altercation or not.

This has been said so many times, and I don't know why. If there is no altercation, there is no violation. However, Duncan should have got a tech for going on the court during play. But the rule in question never took place because there was no altercation.

It is simply a weird reading of the rule to say that being on the court is punishable for something that happened later without requiring a player to be psychic.

Not really, when they aren't supposed to be there anyway. Put it this way, you can drive around all day with your seat belt off, but if you get pulled over for speeding, that seat belt violation will be added to your ticket. You can't get pulled over for it alone.

If it is as you say that Amare made a move toward the altercations and that (and only that) action is what should be penalized, then why was Diaw penalized since he pulled back as soon as he could see there was an altercation.

Amare was sure to get penalized because he stayed on the court during hte altercation, and even made a slight move toward it. I though Diaw would get off though because he was headed back on his own, but since he was technically away from the bench area during the altercation, Stern kept to his hardline precedent on the rule...several players have been popped for just putting a foot on the court. It's a dumb rule.
 

D-Dogg

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So you agree there was not logic at all in hitting Diaw?

No, I even said as much. Technically he was in violation of the rule. Even though he beat tail back to the bench right away, he was still away from the bench when the altercation was happening. The rule is meant to keep bench players in their seat and not to escalate anything. Strictly enforced, he would be suspended. Logically, he would be suspended.

I thought Stern might have taken into account his quick retreat and let him slide but instead he was more concerned with the fact that he left the bench in the first place.

Logical? Yes. Intelligent? No.
 

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