Could the All-Star game mean something?

[DWKB]

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
1. Oh, I thought we were talking about home field advantage in the World Series and not some numbers that doesn't directly realte to home field advantage like you have. Again, 15 out of the last 17 teams with home field advantage have won the World Series. That's a fact tied directly to the discussion at hand and jot some outlier like teams having nobody who hit more than 36 HRs during the regular season. Of course if you had any proof that home field advantage was meaningless, I might reconsider my position, but all I see out fo you is meaningless minutae.

My numbers seem to prove what wins a WS better than your's do, but honestly they are all worthless. They are all worthless because they don't have any proof of causation. Until you can prove that you have no stance that home field advantage matters. Again, how does a team like the 1990 Reds benifit from home field advantage? That team is in you list, so how do they benifit?

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson

2. Hot streaks and luck do decide serious matters like titles, I just don't think an exhibition game should decide things. In the examples you cite, the deciding factor was that the teams directly involved were on the field of play at the time and not some ballot stuffed All Star team that's filled out with biased manager's picks and all inclusive moves that get Ron Coomer on the roster.
4. Nice to see you didn't have any comments about the ballot stuffing. So you don't think it'll happen, oir that it won't have any effect?

Since these are basically the same post repeated for some reason. It is extremely inconsistant IMO to believe in luck and hot streaks ( which you denied in the previous post ) yet want to put so much emphasis on a single game that again is affected by those same principles. What exactly are you afraid of? That the FLA Marlin's ( a WC team no doubt ) doesn't get that HFA they so desperately deserve against the CLE Indians? No I don't think that the anti-ballot stuffer will be anything but noise. Seems to me people get their panties in a wad about the strangest things.

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson

3. Who said I didn't think the All Star game could use some changes? I already offfered up my solution, go back to the way it was when everybody didn't HAVE to get in the game. I just think that MLB is making a big mistake by attaching actual meaning to a game the players don't take all that seriously.

Well how do you propose we do that? How do we make the players take it a little more seriously?

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson

How about this scenario...a Boston Red Sox pitcher is on the mound in the bottom of the 9th inning of a tied All Star game. The Sox are 15 games behind the first place Yankees in the standings. So the Red Sox pitcher "looks" like he grooves a fastball to some bad Brewers rep, and the NL wins the game. So what happens the next day when it's suggested in the press, and by the fans, that the Red Sox pitcher just grooved one in so the Yankees would get home field advantage in the playoffs? Even if that Sox pitcher didn't do it, don't you see where the integrity of the game would be questioned? Would that scenario have a worse effect on the game than last year's tie?

I personally think it's a <explative> scenario because I would hope and strongly believe that professionalism and pride would keep them from doing that. But then again I guess I'm naive enought to think that Park didn't "groove on to Ripken".

I can just see Park's thought process now:

"Hmmmm...I'm the first Korean player to ever play in a Major League All-Star game. My entire country is watching me, hoping and expecting for me to do well. But you know, I think I'll just serve one up for Cal Ripken. I mean, I don't know the guy, we're not even in the same league, but it's his last year and he certainly seems like a good guy. Yeah, that's what I'll do."

Is that what you picture Derek?

The press have issues with everything because they have to write their story. If you're main arguement is to use the press than it appears you're grasping for straws.

 

[Derek in Tucson]

Yes, anything can happen in one game, but there's a difference between one single event, and 17 years worth of home field advantage winners. You think it's just a coincidence that 15 out of the last 17 with home field advantage have won the series? I don't. It sure mattered for the Twins and it definitely made a difference for the Diamondbacks. So you don't think having the home field advantage can be a psychological advantage for a team before they even start the series? If not, then obviously you know nothing about sports. Show me a quote from any player who says: "Damn, we would've won this thing if we didn't have home field advantage." I guess you wouldn't though in your world where everything is chance, luck, and a roll of the dice.

I didn't say that the players should take the All Star game more seriously, only that the managers shouldn't be so determined to get everybody in the game. None of the other pro sports leagues take the game seriously so why should MLB? You don't see the NHL players throwing checks in their All Star game. The NBA has little defense, and the Pro Bowl is just a vacation in Hawaii.

We can't roll back the clock to some nostalgic dreamland to get the players to injure each other with a body block into home plate, nor should we. The players sure don't seem to want this. It's just another Selig move to try and deflect criticism from himself and direct it at the players and managers.

As for Chan Ho. It wasn't just the media that was thinking he grooved that pitch to Cal Ripken. The thought came across my mind as soon as ithe ball left Ripken's bat.

But it's obvious to me that nothing I say is going to get you to see my point of view and vice versa so we should just let it go. Get in your last shot if you wish, but I'm done.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
If not, then obviously you know nothing about sports.

But it's obvious to me that nothing I say is going to get you to see my point of view and vice versa so we should just let it go. Get in your last shot if you wish, but I'm done.

I'd get in a last shot but I honestly don't think I could get any lower than this so why try.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Re: Bud's Dud Plan

Originally posted by FORKTUNG
Just wait until a wild card team gets home field advantage due to Bud's stupid idea.

That can happen by the old rules.... This argument is irrelevant.

It may make the game a bit more competitive, return to flavor of the older days when starters stayed in a few more innings.

I don't see reason for MLB to panic because of the tie--the game really is and always has been an exhibition--one that most fans could care less about the winning/losing. Can hardly remember who wins from year to year--it's far more about memorable moments.

But it in the "old" days, it did seem to have a bit more intensity than it has in recent years. Whether the idea is silly or not doesn't really matter--it won't destroy the integrity of the game, and may actually spark a bit more competition in the All Star game.

 

[DWKB]

Re: Re: Bud's Dud Plan

Originally posted by moviegeekjn
That can happen by the old rules.... This argument is irrelevant.

Actually is already has happened. 1997 FLA Marlins 1st WC team to win a WS and all.

 

[Dback Jon]

Why not cash rewards for the winning team - an extra $50,000 or $100,000 would motivate many players.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
Why not cash rewards for the winning team - an extra $50,000 or $100,000 would motivate many players.

Now THERE'S an idea the Player's Union would love! Definitely motivating too!

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
Why not cash rewards for the winning team - an extra $50,000 or $100,000 would motivate many players.

psst....it already exists too.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
So you don't think having the home field advantage can be a psychological advantage for a team before they even start the series? If not, then obviously you know nothing about sports.

Hey, the Eagles are milking every drop of their home field advantage against the Bucs this weekend. Rowdy rabid fans, turf and the 5 degree weather we are having right now doesn't hurt either.

Home field meant everything in the 2001 world series.

 

[Stan C]

DWKB
Why didn't you ever post the numbers of home field advantage when the series went 7 games. I believe it's 6 of 7 and that would not hold well for your argument. I may be one off, but I'm damn close. Need the all all WS stats site.

 

[BC867]

On the lighter side

While flipping the radio dial (OK, pushing buttons) on the way to work, I caught Al McCoy's sports report on KTAR.

He reported that the owners voted to let the All Start Game determine who had home court advantage in the World Series.

It's been decades since Al did play-by-play for the ol' Phoenix Giants at Municipal Stadium, but I don't think they called it a baseball court.

Shazam, Al!

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by Stan C
DWKB
Why didn't you ever post the numbers of home field advantage when the series went 7 games. I believe it's 6 of 7 and that would not hold well for your argument. I may be one off, but I'm damn close. Need the all all WS stats site.

It's actually the last 7 have been won by the home team but 7 out of 8 before that were won by the visiting teamI don't think an 8-7 record for the hom team in the past 15 game 7's is that much out of line.

 

[schillingfan]

More home field advantage stories

.....from Philly.

Tampa Bay arrived in Philly yesterday to temperature in the teens. Man was it cold here yesterday. Down to about 2 degrees when I went to bed.

Anyway, several Eagles fans braved the cold outside the Bucs hotel to give them a good Philly greeting when the bus brought them from the airport. There in the crowd the reporters spotted two Eagles players ND Kalu and Ike Reese. It was their way to show fan appreciation.

Tampa Bay says Philly isn't in their heads but you have to wonder.

I still say 2001 World Series was all about home field advantage.

 

[Bob Chebat]

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I think Arizona baseball fans could give a rats ass about the advantage that the Philadelphia Eagles have going into Sunday's game against Tampa Bay.

Not only that, but there is a HUGE difference between home field advantage in football and baseball. I do not see how you could convince yourself to even make such a comparison. You are talking about 1 game for everything versus a 7 game series.

It like comparing the brightness of a light bulb to the sun. The 2001 World Series was not "about" home field advantage, but considering all that had happened in September and then the Yankees being in the WS, it sure had impact.

Anyway, if I want to read about the Eagles and Phillies, I will browse an Eagles or Phillies board. I hate to be a *ick about it, but one of the reasons I have had little interest in utilizing this board is because of references to the Phillies. I hope they finish last. I respect the passion for your team and you being a fan of Curt, but please keep the Philly talk where it belongs, IN PHILLY!

 

[schillingfan]

Hey Bob, there is so much exciting to talk about around here, isn't there? I guess silence is golden to you. How dull. You never could stand an assertive female anyway. Otherwise why make a separate board for males???

Please show me all the Phillies talk that I started. Hey I'm excited about the Eagles. It's not like the D-Backs are making lots of great moves to talk about.

 

[Bob Chebat]

I could never stand an assertive female? Schillingfan, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I married one of the most assertive females I have ever met, and that is one of the reasons why I love her so much.

Every time someone doesn't like what you post or calls you to task, you play the "female card." Sounds to me like someone has a serious inferiority complex.

I guess you don't like the fact that someone actually doesn't want to read about the Phillies or Eagles, and they are bringing it up.

The Diamondbacks signed three players last week and filled out the coaching staff, but you're right, the Eagles are the only thing to talk about.

Until tomorrow when Tampa breaks the hex and breaks all the Philly hearts again. I'll be praying for that to happen.

 

[BC867]

Home field advantage

As dominating as Randy Johnson has been, particularly the last four seasons . . . there is no question in my mind that he gets calls at home (the inside pitch vs. right-handed batters) that he doesn't get to the same degree on the road.

I believe that is one of the reasons that Bob Brenly had him start Game 2 in the 2001 World Series (in Phoenix), then Game 6 (back in Phoenix) . . . and pitch in relief in Game 7 (also in Phoenix).

I have little doubt that if Randy had started Game 1 in Phoenix, then Game 5 in NY, we would not have won the Series.

Although Curt has played a large role in helping Randy keep his cool during games, it was not getting the inside strike that set him off his first two years here.
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On the other hand, a team that does not have the home field advantage isn't necessarily in a bad situation. If they're good enough to be in the World Series, they should be able to split the first two on the road, take two out of three at home, then just need to win one more on the road to win it all!

 

[Stan C]

to DWKB
Good point
Guess I didn't dig hard enough
I didn't watch a lot of baseball in the late 70', 80's or early 90's so I'm asking, not saying
But I don't ever remember seeing people so worked up as they get now at sporting events, the amount of noise in the last 2 world series was deafening, and I only watched the last one on TV.
Are people today more apt to make noise to root their team on. My only experience with a championship was the Univ. of Alabama in which I went to several games when they won national titles(70's). I've heard a lot more noise at the BOB in championship baseball than I did as a kid, so have things changed?


On somewhat the same line I don't like some of what is going on in football with fans this week,
No offense Shill fan
But I'm sick of hearing about what a bunch of thugs the Philly and Oakland fans are. I don't see it as anything to be proud of. I choose not to take my daughter to a pro football games here in pitiful Cardinal AZ because of fights, foul language, and other activities. I'm no goodie goodie, raised a lot of hell in my time, but never knowingly exposed kids and families to it. I don't think we need to encourage lighting yourself on fire to prove you are a loyal fan as the "torch man" did in Philly. Too much booze I guess. Glad I finally retired from drinking with a few brain cells left.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by Stan C
On somewhat the same line I don't like some of what is going on in football with fans this week,
No offense Shill fan
But I'm sick of hearing about what a bunch of thugs the Philly and Oakland fans are. I don't see it as anything to be proud of. I choose not to take my daughter to a pro football games here in pitiful Cardinal AZ because of fights, foul language, and other activities. I'm no goodie goodie, raised a lot of hell in my time, but never knowingly exposed kids and families to it. I don't think we need to encourage lighting yourself on fire to prove you are a loyal fan as the "torch man" did in Philly. Too much booze I guess. Glad I finally retired from drinking with a few brain cells left.

Stan, thanks for responding to the issue which I was trying to raise. Home field can really be used to your advantage if it's played right. I agree with you on one level there is something disturbing about playing the homefield card as the rabid out of control fans. There is something about the violence of football that plays to it. Even I became a big crazed when I'm watching the Eagles. The last game against the Giants I was yelling at them to hurt Jeremy Shockey, and I'm not really that way. So its disturbing to some extent

But on the other hand I love being the bully here. Inhospitable Vet, cold weather, crazed fans. It's part of the football culture. There was an article in the paper about how Tampa Bay travel agency wasn't booking people for the championship game here because they were afraid of the fans at the Vet.

IMO it's all harmless hype. Feel good stuff without actually harming anyone and getting aggression out. Maybe it harms society as a hell to glorify violence. I dunno. I'm an anti-war pacifist but a violent football fan.

Stuff to chew on.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by Bob Chebat

Not only that, but there is a HUGE difference between home field advantage in football and baseball. I do not see how you could convince yourself to even make such a comparison. You are talking about 1 game for everything versus a 7 game series.

It like comparing the brightness of a light bulb to the sun. The 2001 World Series was not "about" home field advantage, but considering all that had happened in September and then the Yankees being in the WS, it sure had impact.

To pile on....

Not only are we talking 1 game vs. many but we're talking actual crowd influence. In football you, as a fan, know when to be loud and know when to be quiet.

Loud when your team is on defense ( for obvious reasons of the offense not hearing the QB calling audibles and snaps ).

Quiet when your team is on offense so they can hear the QB.

When is it an effective cheer in baseball? Baseball fans cheer when their team is pitching "to disturb the batter" and they cheer when their team is batting "to disturb the pitcher". These two statements don't make any logical sense but I've heard many baseball fans say them one after the other.

I believe HFA comes almost entirely from the uniqueness of your ballpark ( Metrodome's white ceiling , Astrodome cavernous outfield, Fenway's LF, etc.. ) but that even at these extremely unique ballparks it's only been measured through record at 25% tops. But in one game ( 4 vs. 3 ) you really don't see any effect.

 

[Moose Lady]

DWKB. I don't know if HFA actually exsists or not. But in Game 7 of our World Series, I don't know if you were there or not but, there was an incredible roar from the fans and especially when it started blowing and then the rain came and from then on it really did seem like the crowd was generating energy, giving our guys that little extra to believe that they could do it and I think it did help them. Especially when NY got the lead, they could have given up, feeling like there was no way they were going to come back, but with the crows behind them and all of us sending them our energy and will, they did come back, they never gave up.

Sorry for being so dramatic in what I write but I have so much feeling for this team that there's no way I could be anything else.

 

[Bob Chebat]

I would say the only time HFA matters in baseball is in a game 7. Of course as an athlete, in that situation you will want to play that game in front of your own fans.

On another note, congrats to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for an impressive win in the final game at Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia. Good thing the Eagles had HFA in that one.

What a beautiful game that was.

 

[Derek in Tucson]

Yeah I know, I said I was going to quit beating this dead horse, but I couldn't resist posting this article from the esteemed Doug Pappas over at Baseball Prospectus who lays out much the same argument I said.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030122pappas.shtml

The only thing I don't agree with is having the Series home field advantage determined by record. There's just to much difference with the unbalanced schedule and which teams are in which divisions for it to be fair. A team like the Diamondbacks or Angels, with two other good teams in their division, are at a disadvantage with their schedules compared to a divsion like the AL East or AL central where there are only 1 or 2 good teams. I guess you could go to a BCS type system where you could get factor in strength of schedule, but I don't think baseball fans would want to go anywhere near that kind of a system.

 

[unc84steve]

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson

MLB has more imprtant problems to solve that affects the sport's popularity than trying to "fix" an exhibition game(pun directed at Chan Ho Park for the pitch he groooved to Cal Ripken). If Selig spent as much time on those problems as he does on minutae like this, then maybe baseball wouldn't be called the dying sport.

I agree with DWKB, Dekek must be a smart guy because that was funny.

I didn't see that All Star Game, and I haven't heard any confessions from CHP--maybe it will be part of a Pete Rose like deal to get into Cooperstown if & when....

But honestly, how easy is it to "groove" a HR pitch to living legend in an ASG? Wasn't a HR-hitting contest on of the seriously proposed solutions to the 7-7 tie that Bud was supposed to create on the spot?

In such HR derbies where the "winning" BP pitcher gets a bonus for "grooving" fat pitches, I see popups & grounders galore. I saw A-Rod whiff knowing Curt was only throwing #1's.

Was Mariano Rivera's 11/4/2001 "performance", just that? An uncharacteristic fix?

(I won't ask about the allegedly "grooved" pitches of another Korean pitcher a few nights earlier.)

So I'm lost. How does increasing the stakes of the ASG hurt baseball?

 

[Dback Jon]

So I'm lost. How does increasing the stakes of the ASG hurt baseball?


Very simple - it hinges the outcome of the most important part of the baseball season (the World Series) on the least important (All-Star Game). To do so would be a travesty.