Could the All-Star game mean something?

unc84steve

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Originally posted by schillingfan
According to Merriam Webster:
Etymology: Middle French absurde, from Latin absurdus, from ab- + surdus deaf, stupid
Date: 1557
1 : ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous
2 : having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : MEANINGLESS; also : lacking order or value

Increased complexity doesn't necessarily bring clarity.
You are right. The etymology & precise definition have value & brings clarity to my life. :)

Originally posted by BC867
I was a ten year old Dodger fan, living in New Jersey, when my father (a Giants fan) took me to Game 1 at Ebbetts Field. I was devistated when Jim Hearn of the Giants beat the Dodgers at home, giving the Giants a solid home field advantage.

But there are other factors. Dressen's Dodgers lost to the Giants by one game, just as they had lost to the Phillies the previous year on the last day of the season, to finish one game behind them for the NL Pennant.
Wow, that must have been something--exactly 50 years before our special season.

Baseball was 2 games away (1950 & 1951) from 5 straight Brooklyn-New York World Series from 1949 to 1953 during baseball's "Golden Age." As it was, the biggest market, NYC, had a WS team each year from 1949 to 1958 until the "small market" LA Dodgers & Chicago White Sox broke that streak in 1959. :thumbup:
 

unc84steve

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I'll grant the "inconsistency"

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
But I'll try one last question. Just for arguments sake, I'll buy into yours and Steve's contention that HFA doesn't matter in the World Series. If it doesn't matter in determining the winner of the Series, then what is the motivation to win the game?
Derek, you correctly raise the logical inconsistency (or paradox) that is involved in the All Star Game, World Series home-field advantage issues or non-issues. There a assumptions--spoken & not--on both sides that seem inconsistent. There are levels to the issue & argument that make this fascinating.

One key, I think is that we agree & disagree on various sub-issues including how much we know various "facts". Nobody has the same opinion on these issues (I'll give my answers in a separate post, but I think you'll find the questions "leading" ;) :

1) Is the ASG "in trouble"?

2) Can the ASG "be fixed"?

3) Is "get everyone in the ASG" a problem?

4) How best to solve "get everyone in the ASG" "problem"?

5) Should the ASG "just be an exhibition"?

6) Can the ASG mean more than an exhibition?

7) How important is WS home field advantage?

8 ) Has WS HFA really increased recently?

9) Should WS HFA be random, rotated, or "awarded"?

10) Should WS HFA be awarded to the league or the team?

11) What's the best way to award WS HFA?

12) Are the leagues basically equal?

13) Is the ASG game a good way to measure league strength?

14) Is there a better way to measure league strength?

15) Would interleague record be a better way to determine the stronger league?

16) Is a Tampa Bay vs Milwaukee interleague game a better way to determine WS HFA than the ASG?

17) If overall individual team record is the way to determine HFA,
how best to handle unbalanced divisional schedules?

18 ) Is a September game of Yankees vs Tampa Bay AAA callups a better way to determine HFA than the ASG?

19) Do changes tend to work as intended or backfire and make things worse?

20) If things get worse, are they easily fixed?

21) Have previous Bud Selig proposals (3-divsions, wild card, interleague play) helped or hurt baseball?

22) How much should Bud Selig's past record affect our opinion of this decision?

23) What parts of Selig's past record (owner, Milwaukee Braves fan protest leader, car dealer) should be evaluated?

24) Is it good for baseball to try changes?

25) Is it good for baseball to try this change?
 

BC867

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Originally posted by unc84steve

Baseball was 2 games away (1950 & 1951) from 5 straight Brooklyn-New York World Series from 1949 to 1953 during baseball's "Golden Age." As it was, the biggest market, NYC, had a WS team each year from 1949 to 1958 until the "small market" LA Dodgers & Chicago White Sox broke that streak in 1959. :thumbup:
That's right, Steve! In '57 and '58, the Yankees and Milwaukee Braves (just out of Boston) fought in the Series, each taking one.

And by finishing second to the Giants in '54 (5 games out), the Dodgers were a total of 7 games away from NL Championships in 8 straight years -- '49 thru '56.

I used to run into Joe Black, shopping at the Bashas at Shea and 32nd St., before he died, and we'd talk baseball. (He was raised in New Jersey also.)

Boy, was he pissed that the Dodgers traded him to Cincinnati mid-way through the '55 season -- the "Bums" only World Championship in Brooklyn.

That's why, when Don Newcombe and Roy Campanella worked in Public Relations for the L.A. Dodgers, Joe worked for the NL . . . until the D'backs came to be!
 

Derek in Tucson

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1) Is the ASG "in trouble"?

I don't think so, outside of last year's tie game. I don't think having the All Star game decide HFA is going to fix that either.

2) Can the ASG "be fixed"?

Well if the "fix" involves the players buying into the game being important, it will be hard to do.

3) Is "get everyone in the ASG" a problem?

It is when the game ends up being a tie after the managers run out of players. Really this is the biggest problem. There wasn't any real groundswell of support for changing the All Star game before last year.

4) How best to solve "get everyone in the ASG" "problem"?

Well unless it's the individual player's home field the All Star game is being played at, I don't see how it can be a problem not to play those substandard "All Stars" from teams like the DRays. Players who wouldn't be there otherwise.

5) Should the ASG "just be an exhibition"?

I think it should. To me it's just some fantasy game, where the best players come together to show off their stuff. Baseball also has a history of deciding things over the course of a long season. It has the fewest playoff teams out of the professional sports in this country, which I think is a good thing. To decide HFA on the basis of one exhibition game goes against the grain of the 162 game season and having only 8 out of 30 teams in the playoffs.

6) Can the ASG mean more than an exhibition?

Again, only if the players buy into it. You can't really force them to make the game something it's not. With the dilution of the rivalry between the leagues because of interleague play, and other things like the elimination of the league offices of President for both leagues, the AL vs NL fervor just isn't what it once was.

7) How important is WS home field advantage?

Recent history says it's very important.

8 ) Has WS HFA really increased recently?

15 out of the last 17 winners with HFA seems to indicate that it has.

9) Should WS HFA be random, rotated, or "awarded"?

Rotated is the fairest method given the current way schedules are made out.

10) Should WS HFA be awarded to the league or the team?

Well ideally, I think the fairest way is to eliminate HFA altogether and have it at a neutral site, but that's not going to happen.

11) What's the best way to award WS HFA?

Best? Have everybody play the exact same schedule, both AL and NL across leagues, then award it to the team with the best regular season record.

12) Are the leagues basically equal?

No easy answer with a question worded this way. I think you could make a case though that the AL has more teams that are currently worse. Looking at the projected pitching rotations for Detroit, Cleveland, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay, I don't see a lot of hope foir those teams having a good year. Milwaukee is the only team in the NL with that kind of poor quality pitching in their rotation. San Diego, who lost 96 games last season, at least has some promising pitching prospects in their system. The Cubs should be better than last year and have at least made some moves to better their team.

13) Is the ASG game a good way to measure league strength?

One game isn't a good way to measure any strength.

14) Is there a better way to measure league strength?

Interleague play, but even that is streak driven since teach team only plays about 12(?) interleague games each season.

15) Would interleague record be a better way to determine the stronger league?

Better than a 1 game exhibition, but it still has it's faults.

16) Is a Tampa Bay vs Milwaukee interleague game a better way to determine WS HFA than the ASG?

No, but it isn't just about one interleague game if you use that method, right?

17) If overall individual team record is the way to determine HFA,
how best to handle unbalanced divisional schedules?

That's the trouble, you can't and be reasonably fair. The only way would be to use some kind of Sagarin rating where strength of schedule figures into the mix.

18 ) Is a September game of Yankees vs Tampa Bay AAA callups a better way to determine HFA than the ASG?

Nope

19) Do changes tend to work as intended or backfire and make things worse?

Well it depends on how you look at which changes. Some would say a change like moving in the fences is good because it attracts more poeple to high scoring games. Others think this new era of easy home runs is destructive when players constantly swing for the fences and strikeout a lot.

20) If things get worse, are they easily fixed?

Nope, in general the worse things get, the more effort you have to put out to exact change.

21) Have previous Bud Selig proposals (3-divsions, wild card, interleague play) helped or hurt baseball?

They've generally helped when it comes to increasing revenues. Interleague games have a higher average attendance than your average AL or NL games.

22) How much should Bud Selig's past record affect our opinion of this decision?

I'm always skeptical when it comes to Selig's decisions.

23) What parts of Selig's past record (owner, Milwaukee Braves fan protest leader, car dealer) should be evaluated?

All of it really.

24) Is it good for baseball to try changes?

Yes, as long as they try those changes in exhibition games. One item recently that was a "change" was the promotion of going back to the strike zone as it's written in the rule book. Also known as "bringing back the high strike", I think that was a good change as you rarely saw anything above the belt being called a strike. Anything that can get the umps to be more consistent with their strike zone is a good thing.

Another positive change IMO was to eliminate the body armour that players wore. That's another rule that could use more inforcement....a player must make an attempt to avoid being hit by a pitched ball.

25) Is it good for baseball to try this change?

I don't think so. Most fans are perfectly content with the All Star game being an exhibition, and the players certainly want it that way. Already other changes are underway for the All Star game. In this USA Today column it looks as though the managers won't be able to pick the reserves.
 

schillingfan

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The only real exception I would take to what you said Derek is that I think the Tampa Bay fans should be able to watch their poor non-star play in the all-star game. Man their seasons are bleak enough as it is, give them a little something to cheer about. Trust me I've been there where it was really exciting to me to see Curt Schilling at the all-star game wearing the Phillies red and white.
 

Bob Chebat

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Was Curt there because he earned it, or because he was just the most deserving of a bunch of bums? I'm pretty sure there were not any more deserving players that sat out as a result.

I have no problem with it if a team has an actual star player having a great year. But to send someone to the all star game because you are obligated to do so only means that some other, more deserving player elsewhere won't get to go.

That is a very, very weak argument for your case schillingfan, and if you were a man, I'd still think so.
 

unc84steve

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Re: I'll grant the "inconsistency"

Thanks for answering Derek. I think your answers show that we disagree about some basic assumptions. I'll answer these in groups as briefly as possible. :rolleyes:

1) Is the ASG "in trouble"?
2) Can the ASG "be fixed"?
3) Is "get everyone in the ASG" a problem?
4) How best to solve "get everyone in the ASG" "problem"?
5) Should the ASG "just be an exhibition"?
6) Can the ASG mean more than an exhibition?

1) Yes (for me), 2) Yes, 3) Definitely, 4) Make it mean something, 5) Maybe 6) Why not?

I understand many casual fans enjoy the "fun" and the break of the ASG; since I was a kid, I thought the AS break was the worst three days of the season--no "real games." I saw the 2002 ASG and admit it was fun, (including seeing my views vindicated).

The "little League parade" is no more "baseball" than WWE is wrestling. Conversely, every "game" including pro wrestling, little league, and WS Game 7 has both an "exhibition" and "real" component to them. It's all a matter of balance & semantics.

There's no inherent reason why future ASG can't "mean something". I hope & expect the fun will remain.

7) How important is WS home field advantage?
8 ) Has WS HFA really increased recently?

There's more randomness & coincidence in baseball & life than people think. WS HFA is over-estimated but probably has increased with more fan-intensity as witnessed in 2001 & 2002

9) Should WS HFA be random, rotated, or "awarded"?
10) Should WS HFA be awarded to the league or the team?
11) What's the best way to award WS HFA?

9) Rotated better than random, and random is better than awarded :eek:
10) "Awarding" to league is better than "awarding" to team
11) Rotate leagues is best, randomly assign to leagues is 2nd best, "awarding" to leagues is 3rd best,

I admit it. This shows the "abusdity" of my "logic" but this is what I believe. I'll answer this now:

12) Are the leagues basically equal? I think so.

But suppose they weren't. Say in 2003 the NL as a whole and the NL West especially were clearly superior to the AL, especially the AL East.

So like the '02 Angels, the Dbacks are one of three 93+ win teams, maybe even the wildcard at 99 wins, slated to face the 101-win Yankees who got to fatten up on Tampa Bay & Baltimore the same way Atlanta got to 101 wins via the Mets & Expos.

Who should get WS HFA? I dunno. As Derek describes it well, "fairness" gets really complicated.

That's why I think taking turns would be best, and a random process like "flipping a coin" (as the BP Gary Huckaby article notes was done before the 1920's), or even letting some exhibition game decide it has more appeal than pretending to do it "fairly".

I prefer to decide it at the "league level" rather than the "team level" because often I think the difference between the 2 teams is random.

(Admittedly biased stat: in the last 11 WS, the difference in games won between the 2 teams was 5 or fewer 7 times and only greater than 7 games twice--in the 8 WS before those 11, one team had at least a 7-game margin over their opponent each time thus showing finding the deserving WS HFA team would be "harder than it ever was before."

13) Is the ASG game a good way to measure league strength?
14) Is there a better way to measure league strength?
15) Would interleague record be a better way to determine the stronger league?
16) Is a Tampa Bay vs Milwaukee interleague game a better way to determine WS HFA than the ASG?

13) Probably not
14) I liked Derek's allusion to Sagarin rating's but BCS isn't too popular :eek:
15) Theoretically but,
16) Of course not.

Still if one accepts that WS HFA should be "awarded", and believes it should be to the league rather than to the team, then the question is, how to evaluate league strength?

Sagarin power ratings (USA Today) relies on interleague games in some way. So whether one determined WS HFA by interleague record or by using a power rating, it could come down to the TB @ Mil "Miller Thriller".

I think that "fairness" is way overrated. We might as well have fun, and for me fun includes making the ASG a little more meaningful. I think it's as good a way as any to determine the "better league" if there is one. If there isn't, it's like flipping a coin.

17) If overall individual team record is the way to determine HFA, how best to handle unbalanced divisional schedules?
18 ) Is a September game of Yankees vs Tampa Bay AAA callups a better way to determine HFA than the ASG?

17) That's a hard one. Live with it, like with the wild-card.
18 ) I don't think so at all.

19) Do changes tend to work as intended or backfire and make things worse?
20) If things get worse, are they easily fixed?

19) Backfire
20) Nope

I believe reforms backfire because of "the law of unintended consequences." I still think this is worth pursuing.

21) Have previous Bud Selig proposals (3-divsions, wild card, interleague play) helped or hurt baseball?
22) How much should Bud Selig's past record affect our opinion of this decision?
23) What parts of Selig's past record (owner, Milwaukee Braves fan protest leader, car dealer) should be evaluated?

21) Hurt
22) Not much for this decision
23) Not much here, but Derek's right we should look at his "entire" past record to evaluate him as a man. The baseball decisions of #21 seem more appropriate.

I'm usually a baseball purist, seeing these as greedy moves squandering long-term value. It's funny that many of Selig's changes criticized at the time have been generally accepted as "successes", perhaps needing some modification (e.g. focus the interleague play on the city rivalries).

I still think this proposal should be separated from Selig's other personal record. I find that his "baseball reforn" record is considered rather successful.

24) Is it good for baseball to try changes?
25) Is it good for baseball to try this change?

24) Yes (despite #19 & #20--or especially because of #20)
25) Yes

Bill James has described how baseball's diffuse power structure (including player agents, networks, owner groups, and all their lawyers to name a few) makes it impossible to make any "common sense" changes like reforming how wins are awarded to pitchers.

People have mistaken the baseball's beauty and appeal to think that nothing should be changed. Derek says exhibition games are a good time to try changes, so we agree MLB can be improved because, as in the case with body armor, rules may be needed when the game strays from its essential nature. This happens, usually because people seek a competitive edge with in the rules.

I often cite Rule 1.02 to remind others about focus on the runs column. 1.02 "The objective of each team is to win by scoring more runs than the opponent."

I know that laying out my thinking & "logic" shows contradictions. However, I believe getting absolute fairness, entertainment, safety, and even balance are impossible. Pursuit of those goals/desires is worthwhile as long as one recognizes that.
 

unc84steve

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Originally posted by Bob Chebat
Was Curt there because he earned it, or because he was just the most deserving of a bunch of bums? I'm pretty sure there were not any more deserving players that sat out as a result.

I have no problem with it if a team has an actual star player having a great year. But to send someone to the all star game because you are obligated to do so only means that some other, more deserving player elsewhere won't get to go.

That is a very, very weak argument for your case schillingfan, and if you were a man, I'd still think so.
LOL,

Hey I'm a man! Think what you will and tell me about this one! :p

I'd have no problem with the Selig reform (League that wins the All Star Game gets World Series home-field advantage), with a written rule that says each team must have an representative, plus an "unwritten rule" that said each team had to get a player from each team into the game.

I think the ASG can serve multiple purposes including fans of the TB Devil Rays & Pittsburgh Pirates happy. Hey when I was 14, I was bummed that 1976 Cubs "All Star" catcher Steve Swisher was kept in the bullpen to warm up pitchers. :mad:

Link to "All Star" Steve Swisher page on Baseball-reference.com

I think the managers would have a complicated task. They'd have to pick reserves to satisfy the written rules & anticipate how the game would unfold to satisy the "unwritten" custom to satisfy the future MLB fans in Tampa. They'd have to keep enough reserves on the bench in case the game went 16 innings.

A manager would almost would hate to get into the World Series. :eek:

DWKB asked me how I'd feel if the sole Pirate AS rep was Mike Williams and Byung-Hyun Kim had the better numbers, but the manager had to bring in Williams to close the game to satisfy Western PA fans. (Assuming BK wasn't the only D'back--and had to be kept in reserve if/when Williams blew the save).

Didn't this violate 1.02 about trying "to win by outscoring its opponent"?

Did I already quote Robin Yount asking "Is the All Star Game supposed to be for the fans or the players?" when asked his opinion on who should determine the players? That speaks to the multiple considerations already in play.

So I think that the teams are still trying to win--just under more constraints.

That would be, subtly, but fundamentally different than the current situation where the object has been: get everyone in the game.

Anyone who thinks the ASG honors the best 30 players in each league--or ever would come closer to doing so--probably also thinks that the best players are enshrined in the Cooperstown, NY Hall of Fame. They also may believe that Abner Doubleday invented baseball near Cooperstown 100 years before its opening in 1939.
 

schillingfan

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Steve, don't you think that most of the disagreement stems from disagreements as to the ends and goals of the all-star game?

Ask people how they feel first about what the All-Star game should represent and then you'll have a better feel for how they will answer your questions. DWKB is more of a purist and thus sees the game as a contest between the best (statistically of course :) ) of the game. Me, I see it as an extravaganza for the benefit of the fans, hopefully fun for the players as well.

Bob, I'm not trying to win an argument, but express a point of view about how I, as a fan, feel about the all-star game. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to feel. We feel what we feel.

As a fan of a really crappy team it was a great thrill for me to see Curt Schilling there representing the guys in red pinstripes, as it was for him as well. I wanted to see him play and I wanted other people to see what a great pitcher he was. Trust me, back in 1997-1999 nobody really heard much about Curt Schilling because of how bad the Phillies were. So I picture baseball fans from Detroit, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Kansas City. Milwaukee and I have empathy with them. When you are a fan of a team like that, there isn't a lot related to baseball to feel good about.

Are we sacrificing the good of the many for the good of the few? (watched Star Trek II-IV this weekend). Yes. But is that necessarily bad - no. Having empathy and sympathy for our lesser brethren and sisters of baseball fans is a good thing to me.

 

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Here's an idea.

Instead of alternating leagues that get an all-star game let the league that wins, gets to host the all-star game in a following year.
 

unc84steve

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Originally posted by schillingfan
Steve, don't you think that most of the disagreement stems from disagreements as to the ends and goals of the all-star game?

Ask people how they feel first about what the All-Star game should represent and then you'll have a better feel for how they will answer your questions. DWKB is more of a purist and thus sees the game as a contest between the best (statistically of course :) ) of the game. Me, I see it as an extravaganza for the benefit of the fans, hopefully fun for the players as well.
Yes.

I think most every disagreement stems from differences about the underlying assumptions. :)

In an AIM chat with DWKB, his view of the ASG game problems was slightly different than your characterization.

I said that if a SABERMETRIC All Star game was needed, statistical "purists" should hold it in Lawrence, Kansas in November, if they generated the money/prestige to attract the players.

DWKB said his main concern was that viewership would be higher with meaningful competition. I agree with him.

I also agree with schillingfan that the ASG can primarily be a fan-focused, fun-focused marketing tool for MLB. Adding meaningful competition may become a competing goal, or it may be synergistic.

The underlying rationale for one player per team was reasonable: to show off all the teams' stars & minimize fan disappointment--especially of kids--mainly following the local team.

This rule was implemented in an era when there were many fewer teams and one "game of the week" on national TV. The novelty of seeing a Tampa Bay Devil Ray isn't impossible as it was for someone to see a Washington Senator in 1970.

IMO a sensible kid in Clearwater shouldn't be rooting for the D'Rays--I wouldn't. The typical kid is probably a Braves fan with the Superstation--or if she's starting this year--going to be a Phillies phan.

They'll have some All Stars :)
 

DWKB

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Originally posted by unc84steve
In an AIM chat with DWKB, his view of the ASG game problems was slightly different than your characterization. DWKB said his main concern was that viewership would be higher with meaningful competition. I agree with him.


Yes, this is the basis of my opinions. Numbers have nothing to do with it and I'm too cynical to believe that it will always be played by "the best" ( just like Cooperstown and Doubleday ).


Originally posted by unc84steve
I said that if a SABERMETRIC All Star game was needed, statistical "purists" should hold it in Lawrence, Kansas in November, if they generated the money/prestige to attract the players.

Can't, Nov. would get in the way of Jayhawks Basketball. Now you know how us in the sabermetric community love our Jayhawks Basketball :thumbup:
 

Derek in Tucson

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Can't, Nov. would get in the way of Jayhawks Basketball. Now you know how us in the sabermetric community love our Jayhawks Basketball

Well they could've had it last weekend. I'm sure most Jayhawks fans would've rather been elsewhere when Arizona pummeled them after being down 20 in the first half. :)
 

DWKB

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Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
Well they could've had it last weekend. I'm sure most Jayhawks fans would've rather been elsewhere when Arizona pummeled them after being down 20 in the first half. :)

Hey, a #6 isn't supposed to beat a #1


However Dec 1st 2001 I think a #8 KU beat a #3 UofA 105-97. How did that one feel?
 

schillingfan

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Originally posted by unc84steve
DWKB said his main concern was that viewership would be higher with meaningful competition. I agree with him.

I also agree with schillingfan that the ASG can primarily be a fan-focused, fun-focused marketing tool for MLB. Adding meaningful competition may become a competing goal, or it may be synergistic.
I don't think that many more fans will watch if "meaningful competition" is defined to mean who gets home series. But OTOH who knows? I'm not generally a stick in the mud, so we'll see what happens. My suspicion is that most fans are fans of their team mostly, and fans of "the game" are rarer. As a case in point, viewership of the Superbowl was way down in Philly, mostly because so many people were bummed that the Eagles lost that they just couldn't get excited about the Superbowl. I barely watched it because my emotions were so flat, too.

Then again, that's me. I can't speak for how other people feel. The first all-star game that I remember really watching was 1983. I had gotten into baseball and the San Francisco Giants when I lived in Sacramento. First time I had my own baseball team. My favorite Giant was Atlee Hammaker and he was named to the all-star team. I was so excited for him and had moved to Pennsylvania just prior to the all-star break. When he came in to pitch I told my husband-to-be that he had to watch him and he was really good. He promptly gave up 8 runs in an inning which is still an all-star record. I was totally bummed.

The point of my story is I can still vividly recall that all-star game. I can't remember who won, though I suspect the AL did after Atlee gave up all those runs. Maybe other people are different, but when I talk about the all-star game, what I relate to are all those memories of the performances from guys on my team. (including John Kruk bailing out on Randy Johnson).
 

Derek in Tucson

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Hey, a #6 isn't supposed to beat a #1

Not when they're up by 20 on their home court. Didn't Kansas have something like a 25 game winning streak at home?

However Dec 1st 2001 I think a #8 KU beat a #3 UofA 105-97. How did that one feel?

Didn't hurt that much. You want painful? How about 1997 when #5 seed Arizona knocked off #1 seed Kansas in the tourney when the Jayhawks were heavily favored and had a record of something like 32-1. Ouch!
 

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Originally posted by DWKB

However Dec 1st 2001 I think a #8 KU beat a #3 UofA 105-97. How did that one feel?

I can't remember...I'm too giddy from outscoring you by 30 in the second half in your own gym where you had won 25 in a row.

Rock Choke Jayhoax strike again. I still say your KU ties are the reason you don't believe in clutch performances. ;)

And now back to your regularily scheduled D-Back babble.
 

DWKB

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Back to the subject at hand and ignoring the immature blurbs from those fans of a shcool whos basketball program's success is hardly older than I am while they contemplate their teams juvanile voilations of a vending machine. :thumbup:

I thought this link could add some more discussion to the thread.
 

Stallion

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Originally posted by DWKB
I thought this link could add some more discussion to the thread.

Like I said, I'm going back to talking about baseball (especially since I jinxed my hoops team and made them tank a home game :rolleyes: )...

I've never liked the managers picking the reserves, for all the reasons Rob mentions. It's just too much responsibility for one guy, and from all of Brenly's comments last year, it's not a lot of fun. So I'm definitely glad to see it move elsewhere.
 

Derek in Tucson

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I thought this link could add some more discussion to the thread.

Of course if Alderson, the former jarhead now hatchet man for Selig(doesn't it seem like he gets all the thankless tasks? ie; umpires and the strike zone), and MLB were interested in getting the absolute best players on the field, they'd chose all the players and not just the bench. And they'd also do away with the rule that every team had to be represented.But they took the easy way out, because I don't think any of the All Star managers has admitted to actually enjoying the process of filling out the team. In fact, most of them seem to hate that part of the job so Selig and Alderson are just doing them a favor.

edit: btw, the accuser for the vending machine incident is now in Chicago and isn't talking to anybody. That should give you an idea about the validity of the story. Nobody in Tucson is taking this too seriously and the local press is usually chomping at the bit to print disparaging articles about Arizona athletes.
 
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DWKB

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Now that we've had a year to observe the outcomes and seen the drastic destruction this abomination has plagued us with. I thought it would be fun to look back on. Everyone still have their same opinions?
 

moviegeekjn

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Not sure that this has caused "drastic destruction"... but still don't feel that the All Star game is appropriate venue to decide home field advantage for the World Series... It's still essentially an exhibition game that has no relation with what team "should" be granted the so called advantage.

Main effect seems to be in how the managers manage the All Star game itself with a bit more at stake.

The stakes are false tho... They should either stay with the objective alternating every year method, or if they're serious about making it based on competition... devise a way to use the interleague games for the advantage to make THOSE games slightly more meaningful.
 

unc84steve

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I liked the move then & I like it more now.

The ASG certainly had more drama in it because it was a game who's object was to win as opposed to get EVERYONE in the game. The big honor was to be named (see Barry Zito v. Roger Clemens). It still was an exhibition game: only one pickoff throw with appropriate joke, no hard sliding on DP.

However, Dusty Baker got out-managed in Chicago (big surprise) and this would have had consequences for a Dusty Baker managed Cubs team in October.

I'm not sure this issue was raised here, but I raised it in another forum. The benefit of letting the ASG determine HFA over the best record would have helped me plan a theoretical trip back to Chicago (if I had the $$$). Not knowing whether the Cubs were getting the 4 weekend games if the wildcard Red Sox won or the 3 mid-week games if the Yankees won could make a big difference in travel plans for me and others.

I know that may sound bogus, but it was important to me.
 

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