Cowherd, Rosen, Murray

[RON_IN_OC]

The Chiefs gave up that much because they were WAY back in the 1st rd, the Cards would NOT have had to give up that much to move up a couple of spots.

Well, if you are the team trading down, you are taking the larger haul of picks, all day long. So yes, the Cards would have had to sell the farm to move up 2 spots.



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[Ronin]

In case you were wondering.....this is what it cost the Bears to move up one spot in the 2017 Draft. If you want to take a guess at what it would cost to move up in the draft.

Chicago dealt the No. 3 pick, their third round pick (No. 67), one of their fourth round picks (No. 111) and a 2018 third-round pick to move up and take Trubisky, considered one of the draft’s top quarterbacks.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/04/27/chicago-bears-draft-trade-number-two-pick-mitchell-trubisky

 

[Solar7]

The Chiefs gave up that much because they were WAY back in the 1st rd, the Cards would NOT have had to give up that much to move up a couple of spots.

This is what people don't seem to get about it... the Chiefs deal was that much better. What do you think the Cardinals would have offered at best? A third round pick? Maybe their 2nd pick? Yes, the Bills had to move back 17 spots, but what would you rather do? Slide back 17 spots and add another 1st and a 3rd, or one measly pick?

The Cardinals couldn't just "give less," when there was an awesome offer on the table.

Edit: Plus we're glossing over the PR disaster the team would have had on their hands if we did hand over a boatload of picks for Mahomes at the time. A team still presumably in contention, with a few glaring holes, with a draft coming up where the QBs were supposed to be better the following year? We probably never would have heard of the Chiefs offer, and would wonder what the Cardinals were thinking.

 

[GuernseyCard]

NFL Trade Chart:

http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php

 

[Solar7]

NFL Trade Chart:

http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php

Unfortunately this chart doesn't assign point values to next year's picks (which are also impossible to valuate with a chart on account of not knowing what pick you're getting - the Cardinals first last year would be worth more than the Chiefs, even though I know that's not the year we're talking about).

It's not a hard and fast rule anyways.

 

[HGC]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ardinals-didnt-want-to-force-quarterback-pick

His own words but keep making excuses boys.

 

[Solar7]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ardinals-didnt-want-to-force-quarterback-pick

His own words but keep making excuses boys.

Nowhere in that article does he say "we didn't try to trade up."

What the eff is he supposed to say to the media? We really wanted a QB but other teams outbid us so we ended up with a consolation prize?

Hasaan Reddick was the top player on their board... a board that could have easily included Mahomes and Watson until they were picked. Here's an article with Arians saying they were looking at drafting one of Mahomes or Watson.

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2018...rick-mahomes-or-deshaun-watson-in-2017-draft/

 

[HGC]

Nowhere in that article does he say "we didn't try to trade up."

What the eff is he supposed to say to the media? We really wanted a QB but other teams outbid us so we ended up with a consolation prize?

Hasaan Reddick was the top player on their board... a board that could have easily included Mahomes and Watson until they were picked. Here's an article with Arians saying they were looking at drafting one of Mahomes or Watson.

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2018...rick-mahomes-or-deshaun-watson-in-2017-draft/

You’re giving Keim credit for sitting on his hands even if Arians is being truthful. Nowhere in that interview does it state the Cardinals tried to move up for a QB.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Mahomes would have failed here under Wilks.

Not true. Arians already went on record saying he wouldn’t have left if we had gotten Mahomes or Watson.

 

[Solar7]

You’re giving Keim credit for sitting on his hands even if Arians is being truthful. Nowhere in that interview does it state the Cardinals tried to move up for a QB.

No, but it's never going to come out because there's nothing good to be said to your fans or the player you drafted with "this guy wasn't who we actually wanted, we tried to get a much better player."

That's just going to make the player feel like crap, and the fans will think he sucks.

I have no doubt in my mind that Keim was on the phone discussing the possibilities and ultimately just couldn't pay the price of a first round pick, which was involved in both trades for Mahomes and Watson.

 

[Cardinal]

No, but it's never going to come out because there's nothing good to be said to your fans or the player you drafted with "this guy wasn't who we actually wanted, we tried to get a much better player."

That's just going to make the player feel like crap, and the fans will think he sucks.

I have no doubt in my mind that Keim was on the phone discussing the possibilities and ultimately just couldn't pay the price of a first round pick, which was involved in both trades for Mahomes and Watson.

I remember when it came out on All or Nothing that we really wanted Ameer Abdullah instead of David Johnson. Of course, that came out after the season when we already knew David Johnson was going to be good. Wasn’t a good look for Keim though.

 

[POISON]

Herd is at it again claiming there are some in the cardinal camp that is not sold on Rosen.ugh!

I'm not in the camp, and I'm not sold on him either. I got a feeling he gets traded....

 

[Solar7]

I remember when it came out on All or Nothing that we really wanted Ameer Abdullah instead of David Johnson. Of course, that came out after the season when we already knew David Johnson was going to be good. Wasn’t a good look for Keim though.

Yep. Luckily that's an example of things working out in our favor, but there's no reason a GM would want to lambast his player or how the moves he wanted to make didn't work out.

 

[POISON]

If you do a search on this forum, you will see that I was advocating taking Mahomes.

I have never been more sure about a player. The haters weren't actually WATCHING the throws he was making. I watched him slice and dice ASU, throwing accurate deep throws.

People we're stuck on the system he played in and not on his unique talents.

I was wanting him as well. Everyone on here was crowing that he was going against bad Big 12 defenses and blah, blah, blah....I knew he had a big time arm and was very athletic and mobile

 

[GuernseyCard]

I'm not in the camp, and I'm not sold on him either. I got a feeling he gets traded....

Right. Cards trade him and take a $8m CAP hit

 

[HGC]

No, but it's never going to come out because there's nothing good to be said to your fans or the player you drafted with "this guy wasn't who we actually wanted, we tried to get a much better player."

That's just going to make the player feel like crap, and the fans will think he sucks.

I have no doubt in my mind that Keim was on the phone discussing the possibilities and ultimately just couldn't pay the price of a first round pick, which was involved in both trades for Mahomes and Watson.

Why do you keep saying it would have cost a 1st round pick? It cost a Keim a 3rd and 5th to move up 5 spots for Rosen.

 

[Solar7]

Why do you keep saying it would have cost a 1st round pick? It cost a Keim a 3rd and 5th to move up 5 spots for Rosen.

Because both the Bills and Browns and the Browns had offers with first round picks on the table - that's how both teams ended up with Mahomes and Watson, respectively. That's an incredible offer, one that especially worked out for the Browns, yielding a top 5 pick.

We would have had to offer something enticing enough to overlook that first round pick - and a 3rd & 5th it wasn't. Those teams weren't going to go "well... you're closer, so we guess we'll take less." They would have needed much more.

 

[HGC]

Because both the Bills and Browns and the Browns had offers with first round picks on the table - that's how both teams ended up with Mahomes and Watson, respectively. That's an incredible offer, one that especially worked out for the Browns, yielding a top 5 pick.

We would have had to offer something enticing enough to overlook that first round pick - and a 3rd & 5th it wasn't. Those teams weren't going to go "well... you're closer, so we guess we'll take less." They would have needed much more.

Lots of speculation on your part Solar but I’ll play along. Cincinnati drafted John Ross at #9. You don’t think they would have entertained an offer to move down to #13 to add a couple picks and in all probability gotten their guy? Anyway I’m done we’ve hijacked this thread.


No on Murray.

 

[Solar7]

Lots of speculation on your part Solar but I’ll play along. Cincinnati drafted John Ross at #9. You don’t think they would have entertained an offer to move down to #13 to add a couple picks and in all probability gotten their guy? Anyway I’m done we’ve hijacked this thread.


No on Murray.

I don't think it's a lot of speculation to say "first rounders have more value than 3rd rounders." No, it's not impossible to fathom that Cincy would have moved back, but we'll never know. I don't think anyone expected the Chiefs to leapfrog from 27 to 10. The Cardinals were looking pretty good to get one of their two guys until that happened, and then they were out of luck. I never would have thought the Bills or Browns would move back with all of their needs at the time.

 

[ARZCardinals]

If Murray drops Miami will move up to snag him

 

[HGC]

I don't think it's a lot of speculation to say "first rounders have more value than 3rd rounders." No, it's not impossible to fathom that Cincy would have moved back, but we'll never know. I don't think anyone expected the Chiefs to leapfrog from 27 to 10. The Cardinals were looking pretty good to get one of their two guys until that happened, and then they were out of luck. I never would have thought the Bills or Browns would move back with all of their needs at the time.

14 spots in round 1 is rather significant and you’re not taking that into consideration.

 

[DRM08]

This is what people don't seem to get about it... the Chiefs deal was that much better. What do you think the Cardinals would have offered at best? A third round pick? Maybe their 2nd pick? Yes, the Bills had to move back 17 spots, but what would you rather do? Slide back 17 spots and add another 1st and a 3rd, or one measly pick?

The Cardinals couldn't just "give less," when there was an awesome offer on the table.

Edit: Plus we're glossing over the PR disaster the team would have had on their hands if we did hand over a boatload of picks for Mahomes at the time. A team still presumably in contention, with a few glaring holes, with a draft coming up where the QBs were supposed to be better the following year? We probably never would have heard of the Chiefs offer, and would wonder what the Cardinals were thinking.

While you guys are debating whether the Cardinals needed to be more aggressive, Buffalo is the one that should really be kicking themselves. They could have picked Mahomes #10 and a year later they ended up with a worse version of him named Josh Allen.

 

[HGC]

While you guys are debating whether the Cardinals needed to be more aggressive, Buffalo is the one that should really be kicking themselves. They could have picked Mahomes #10 themselves and a year later they ended up with a worse version of him named Josh Allen.

And gave up quite a bit to get him. Glenn and 2 second round picks. Beane’s a dip****

I’m just pissed because Mahomes and Watson were there for the taking.

 

[Solar7]

14 spots in round 1 is rather significant and you’re not taking that into consideration.

I mean, I get it, that's a significant move. But it's not the difference between a first round pick and a 3rd round pick move. Especially when you're rolling the dice on that pick being incredibly great (like the Browns received).

The only point here is that the Cardinals would have had to offer up a LOT to make up this difference. A lot for an organization that believed they were still prepared for a rebound year, an organization that would have been run through the mud if they gave up that much for a few spots of a jump and ended up with a QB that didn't pan out.

Hindsight is 20/20, and we now know they're pretty damn good, but all the talk at the time then was "wait until next year."

 

[Cardinal]

And if only we didn’t win BA’s last game in Seattle, we would’ve been able to draft Mahomes or Watson instead of Reddick.

I wonder if the players would’ve played as hard for BA if they knew he was going to coach Tampa Bay two years later.