Valid points Lars some of the first I have heard. With the exception of VY he will be the best QB to come out of this draft I am telling you. He may not look the best right now I will give you that, but the guy is a natural born leader and just wins period. My wife is from Texas and I get to watch all the games and watching him over his career he in just a few years has came light years very quick learner and loves the game. To me he is flat out the best LEADER to enter the nfl since Elway, and I'm telling you Young is gonna be a superstar! And I am sorry your hardly an innaccurate passer when you lead the country in comp% not like he had the freakish receivers USC has had all these past few years.
Cutler didn't win in college
- Thread starter Krangodnzr
- Start date
Lars the Red
aka Thor, God of Thunder
golfcardfan said:
If you watched the 'Horns, then you know they had extremely talented receievers, and no one can argue he threw a very large percentage of short, safe passes.
I'm a Big 12 guy so I've seen way more of VY than I ever cared to. I will admit to cheering my nuts off for the guy in the Rose bowl, and his performance was as impressive as that of Tommy Frazier against the Gators in the Fiesta.
You talk about leadership? I'm confused by your notion that Vince is this great leader. He's a nice guy, very layed back and his team mates love him. Not real surprising when your the guy that makes 90% of the big plays for a team. What do you supposed would happen if TX had been a 7-5 team, and Vince would have been Mr. Layed back on a marginal team? Do you still think he'd be this great leader? I don't. Frazier was an incredible leader, but ask most of his team mates if they liked him, and most would say no. They respected the heck out of him and counted on him to pull them through the tough times, but he wasn't Mr. cool, jokin' around with everyone. Bart Starr wasn't Mr. Popular. Neither was Marino, Unitas, Staubach, Dawson, Theisman, Simms, Manning, etc. Being everyone's buddy isn't the sign of a great leader.
Renz
An Army of One
Troy Aikman and Steve Young wouldn't have won at Vanderbilt either.
golfcardfan said:
Texas has had some of the finest talent in College football for years. Vince Young did not carry that team. Mack Brown may have done the worst coaching job possible with all of those future NFL ers on those teams. The knock on Brown was how didn't he win MNCs before this year. Texas wins with talent. Vince Young was not alone.
Captain Matt
Registered
Kind of like Bowden and the all-star teams he fields. How many 1st day players have they produced in 3 years? Fortunately TX played a pretty weak schedule and ran away from the pack. And fortunatley USC's defense wasn't enough to slow 'em down in the bowl game. I like Young and would advocate taking him at #10, but I think it's impossible at this point to say who will be the better pro. We'll know in 3 years or so.
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
wallyburger said:
So how do you explain away all that talent on Texas when Chriss Simms or Major Applewhite where the QB's?
Seems if they were so talent laden (which they of course a very talented team I am not arguing that) but why couldnt these teams go anywhere with Simms and Applewhite?
Furthermore, I know you arent so naive to thgink that coaching college football is more about coaching then it is recruiting...hell even a U of M fan knows that!
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
Lars the Red said:
Let me get this staright...
1. Forget that VY had a 66% completion percentage
2. Forget that he is athletic
3. Wont make it in the NFL coz he is "all about the legs" and compare him to Vick who is very succssful at winning in the NFL (but VY somehow wont be)
4. Believe VY is bad because of a made-for-TV reality show about NCAA QB's?
Laughable!
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I agree that college success doesn't guarantee NFL success. Look no further than John Navarre, who won a ton of games at Michigan but was still a 7th round prospect.
I don't think that Krang is hating on Jay Cutler, but I do think that no one's really taking him up on his challenge to name someone else that has been this pimped after doing NOTHING at the college level to get his team to win games. Even Tim Couch found a way to get Kentucky to win games--another SEC guy from a small program that found his way into the Top 10--how'd that turn out?
Last season, Cutler beat maybe the worst Tenneesee team in a decade, a horrible Arkansas squad, and a Mississippi team that was just able to sneak past Memphis. C'mon, this is who you want to entrust this franchise with?
I don't think that Krang is hating on Jay Cutler, but I do think that no one's really taking him up on his challenge to name someone else that has been this pimped after doing NOTHING at the college level to get his team to win games. Even Tim Couch found a way to get Kentucky to win games--another SEC guy from a small program that found his way into the Top 10--how'd that turn out?
Last season, Cutler beat maybe the worst Tenneesee team in a decade, a horrible Arkansas squad, and a Mississippi team that was just able to sneak past Memphis. C'mon, this is who you want to entrust this franchise with?
Lars the Red
aka Thor, God of Thunder
LVCARDFREAK said:Let me get this staright...
1. Forget that VY had a 66% completion percentage
2. Forget that he is athletic
3. Wont make it in the NFL coz he is "all about the legs" and compare him to Vick who is very succssful at winning in the NFL (but VY somehow wont be)
4. Believe VY is bad because of a made-for-TV reality show about NCAA QB's?
Laughable!
I don't think you have it staright.
Know what your looking at with the completion percentage. Not many in the down field mode. Lots of really short, low risk passes to guys who simply overmatched many of the defensive players in the Big 12. Lots of YAC.
I never argued he wasn't an athlete, I just fail to see how that makes him a 'can't miss' QB in the NFL.
Gee, could you remind me again how many Super Bowls Vick has won? How many playoff games? Let me help you....one. And on that glorious day, Vick completed 12 whole passes, while Atlanta's defense ate St Louis alive. He's played 58 out of 87 possible games. He's got a completion percentage in the 54% range. His teams records since he came on board is 40-39. I'm not sure where your getting your 'very successful' stat, but these are the numbers.
One other little piece I might remind you of.....Vick is much, much faster than Young. Vick also has one of the strongest arms in the league, not accurate, but strong and natural in motion.
Falling in love with Young because of his Rose Bowl performance is going to be disasterous for someone.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Lars the Red said:
Wow. To accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty and the post this dribble about Michael Vick should be pretty embarrassing for you. First, Vick's won two playoff games. He was the first visiting quarterback to win at Lambeau Field in the playoffs in only his first season as a starter. He's lead the Falcons to the playoffs in two of the three seasons where he's starter a majority of the games. His winning percentage as a starter is over .600, but it's really clever of you to count the season that he sat on the bench behind Chris Chandler and the season where he was injured for 3/4 of the season and then came back to lead the Dirty Birds to wins in three of their last four games. Those are the real numbers.
He's also the most marketable player the NFL and has lead to three consecutive seasons of sellouts at the GeorgiaDome in a market that traditionally has been indifferent to the club. He's been voted to the Pro Bowl three times. The Panthers used their first-round draft pick on Thomas Davis purely so that they can have a player to "spy" Vick during games. The Packers drafted Nick Barnett after Vick killed them in the Wild Card round of the 2001 playoffs.
Are you seriously saying that the Cardinals couldn't use a player like this?
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
Lars the Red said:
First off, I watched VY on 4 different occasions last year including the Rose Bowl, The game against OSU in the horseshoe, the Oklahoma game, and the Okey State game where, once again, he single handidly brought them back from a 28 point deficiet to win the game . Watched him 3 times the year before including his great performance in the Rose Bowl vs Michigan.
He completed many short passes yes. But he also completed as many medium range passes as well. Did he throw the long ball a lot? No, but to simplify it as he threw lots of 5 yard outs and the receivers were the ones that got him his yards is assinine. Why arent those receivers earning the same accolades as VY?
As far as Mike Vick goes, know what you're looking at! Vick is a winner. Plain and simple. You are wrong on his win-loss percentage cowboy, and you left out a playoff win as well. How many SuperBowls Vick has won? How many did Marino win? Jim Kelly? Wouldnt want those guys either I suppose? I argued for a long time about Vick and how he wasnt an NFL QB , but the bottom line is he is a winner and when all is said and done I want a guy that will lead my team to the SuperBowl regardless of his stats. Be that Vince Young, Trent Dilfer, Phil Simms etc
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
What worries me about Vince Young is what Merrill Hodge (or someone) broke down yesterday on the ESPN draft special and that I've heard multiple times: Texas' offense told VY what one WR to look at before the snap, and if that guy didn't spring open, VY was supposed to basically run. VY's success came when he just stopped looking for the second guy. That's frightening.
Frightening enough to pass on him at #10? Not really. At least, not for me. But frightening enough that I wouldn't trade up for him.
Frightening enough to pass on him at #10? Not really. At least, not for me. But frightening enough that I wouldn't trade up for him.
LVCARDFREAK
In the league 20 years!
kerouac9 said:
I understand that point. But he ran no simpler an offense at UT then Vick did at VaTech or McNabb's options offense at Syracuse. I cant say for certain he was told not to go through his progressions but frankly if it came from Hodge then I wouldnt be too concerned. He seems to not like QB's at all-regardless of who they are.
Anyway, I understand all the concerns on the guy but the potential he has is as great as any other player to come out of college before him. How can anyone suggest passing on a player who completes 66% of his passes, leads the nation in effeciency, has a 2-1 td to int ratio, rushes for 1000 yards, and leads his team to the national championship? It is baffling to me.
I dont care if his delivery is not picture perfect or his footwork is suspect. Those can be taught. And from all indications he can certainly learn. From his freshman to junior year, the leap in his ability has been just south of amazing.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
True 'nuff. That anyone can say that he's not a better prospect than some guy that lost 8 games a season at Vanderbilt just blows my mind. Vince Young has more potential than any player in this draft that isn't Reggie Bush.
If I got VY, I'd hire a coach that's 30 years old, hand Vince over to him, and tell them to build an offense around the guy's skills. That's been the problem with how Atlanta is handling Vick and partially what happened with McNabb, who hasn't been the playmaker he's been in the past the last couple seasons with Philly. With special talents, you need to make special committments. Offenses need to be designed around these kinds of players.
The question is whether or not there's a visionary enough General Manager to make that kind of committment. Who wants to be the next Jon Gruden?
If I got VY, I'd hire a coach that's 30 years old, hand Vince over to him, and tell them to build an offense around the guy's skills. That's been the problem with how Atlanta is handling Vick and partially what happened with McNabb, who hasn't been the playmaker he's been in the past the last couple seasons with Philly. With special talents, you need to make special committments. Offenses need to be designed around these kinds of players.
The question is whether or not there's a visionary enough General Manager to make that kind of committment. Who wants to be the next Jon Gruden?
Redrage
Hall of Famer
Ok, if the Cards draft Cutler I'll say pass the Koolaid.
Still, he scares me. A few years ago I had a friend who had played some college ball talk about how he thought the Cards had no heart. He said that he'd see certain players, out after a loss, partying and having a good time.
The player he sited was another Vandy alumnus, Chavous.
That's what I don't want to see, another player who can laugh it up and have a good time after they've had their asses kicked. I don't want someone accustomed to losing. Give me guys who can't fathom a loss, who can't stand the taste of defeat.
Still, he scares me. A few years ago I had a friend who had played some college ball talk about how he thought the Cards had no heart. He said that he'd see certain players, out after a loss, partying and having a good time.
The player he sited was another Vandy alumnus, Chavous.
That's what I don't want to see, another player who can laugh it up and have a good time after they've had their asses kicked. I don't want someone accustomed to losing. Give me guys who can't fathom a loss, who can't stand the taste of defeat.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Wow. That's a really, really good point, redrage. Although I think that Chavous was a competitor.
OP
OP
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Redrage said:
Anquan Boldin is that guy.
Definitely bro, we need that attitude here. And when I've heard Cutler on the tube, he hasn't exactly made me feel that he is firey. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm just scared that we'll take him and he'll be so accustomed to losing that he won't take us to the next level.
And Kerouac is right when he has said that no one has refuted my original point: QBs that aren't winners at the college level aren't winners at the pro level the vast majority of the time.
Bring up your Navarres, your Dorseys. Those guys won primarily due to the fact that they had really talented teams around them. But there are numerous instances of QBs who raised the play above and beyond the talent level at their school to win games. And Cutler never proved that.
bump
Interesting comments about Leinarts arm-strength from wallyburger. Anybody else know anything about a lack of arm-strength? If he does have a noodle arm, does that really affect our passing game?
Interesting comments about Leinarts arm-strength from wallyburger. Anybody else know anything about a lack of arm-strength? If he does have a noodle arm, does that really affect our passing game?
Arizona's Finest
Your My Favorite Mistake
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wallyburger said:
Wally I think you know your stuff and acknowledge your knowledge for SEC football. But you are definitly a Pac -10 doubter and i can tell of your assessment of those players from that conference. Leinert will make all the throws just like Tom Brady and Joe Montana and their "rag arms" did, right?
Arm is important but pocket presence, height, leadership skills, woinning mentality, high completion percentage, superior analytical skills and being basically the face and leader of the once of the most successful runs in college football history. ANd Ken Dorsey is not a good comparison. He lacked the pocket presence and had a much inferior arm than Leinert. After his pro day, all the scouts acknowledged he could make all the throws. I only worry about his shoulder but theres another way to look at it. It seemed he had a bigger arm his sophmore year before he began having trouble. So if is still getting better its good for two reasons. He still won 95% of his games with this liability and theres a possibility that he still has strength to gain back.
Who knows? I could'nt be happier. And I'm willing to bet there will nbever be a point where anyone really says, even if he is struggling, thats it because of his arm. Like the ESPN montauge before the draft said...He's the "Chosen One"...
OP
OP
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
DRVNFAST said:
(not at you, at Wally)Leinart doesn't have a noodle arm, he just doesn't have a cannon. Mike Williams caught plenty of deep passes from Leinart
Evil Ash
Henchman Supreme
Krangthebrain said:
Leinart doesn't have a noodle arm, he just doesn't have a cannon. Mike Williams caught plenty of deep passes from Leinart
His arm strength is the same as Warner's
Montana was drafted in the 3rd round and Brady was drafted in the 6th round. I wish him and the Cards the best with their choice. Just not my favorite. Time will tell. Leinart throws floaters.
