D-Backs trying to trade Scherzer

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It's amazing how these "experts", such as Keith Law, are willing to flip-flop at the drop of a hat.

Not so long ago, Keith Law called Jackson the third best pitcher available this off-season, slightly behind Lackey and Halladay.

Now, the Diamondbacks add him to a rotation that already includes a Cy Young winner (who if healthy, is one of the best pitchers in baseball), and another in Dan Haren who would be a clear cut ace on about 90 percent of the teams in baseball.

Granted, I wasn't nuts about the idea of giving up two of their top pitching prospects for Jackson and Kennedy. I will say, Jackson is a very good #3 starter for this team, and if the last two seasons are any indication of what he's capable of doing, the Diamondbacks as a whole will benefit as a result.

Also, since the Diamondbacks are the "losers" of this deal, ask Detroit fans their views on it. They were as unhappy about losing Jackson as they were Granderson.

Just because he's the 3rd best pitcher available doesn't mean this was a smart move. Had we not given up Max I'd have been all for it but that's not the case. And based on the other forums I post at, a lot of Yankees and Tigers fans aren't happy with the deal either. Also, Edwin Jackson posted a 4.42 ERA two seasons ago, so I hope the first half of last year is foreshadowing how he will pitch or else we just got shafted.
 

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I never was enamored with Schlereth - thought he was a wasted draft pick with ZERO potential to be anything other than a middle-innings reliever.

I like Max, but for me, the trade is Max for Jackson and Kennedy, so I think that Dbacks came out ahead.
 

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This from Keith Law at ESPN Insider:

I have no idea what Arizona's motivation for this deal is. Even with my longstanding concerns over Scherzer's delivery and on-and-off shoulder problems, I would rather have five years of his services than two years of Jackson's, since Jackson, despite the hot 2009 start and All-Star appearance, remains a back-end pitcher with No. 1 starter stuff -- but No. 5 starter command. He will light up the gun -- I saw him hit 99 twice in the 7th inning of a start in September of 2008 -- and he looks the part of a dominating staff ace, but he doesn't miss anywhere near enough bats with the fastball, which is pretty straight and which he tries to throw up in the zone too often. His 2009 first half was the anomaly, as his slider got worse as the season went on, and his second-half fade (.290/.356/.500 line for opponents, yielding a 5.07 ERA) was much more in line with his career norms and. He's also a flyball pitcher moving to a pretty good home run park, as is Ian Kennedy, a fringe 5th starter whose command is above-average but has to be plus (or better) for his fringe-fastball/average-changeup combination to work in the big leagues. (I liked Kennedy coming into 2008, but overrated his command.) Giving up five years of Scherzer and six of Schlereth is too much given what's coming back, especially for a club that's more in building mode than immediate contention.


Just came to post this but you beat me to it...

I agree with Law 100% and basically said the same stuff in previous posts. We are not built to win now so giving up on 5 years of Scherzer is stupid. It's a lateral move IMO and I don't see Kennedy bringinng anything to the table in the near future.

There has to be something going on that we don't know about as this trade is unlike Byrnes. Makes no sense
 

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Also, since the Diamondbacks are the "losers" of this deal, ask Detroit fans their views on it. They were as unhappy about losing Jackson as they were Granderson.

A friend of mine who follows the Tigers religiously thought the complete opposite. He was upset to lose Granderson but was happy to get Scherzer. He grew tired of watching Jackson crap the bed down the stretch while they were in contention.

Detroit's FO has been trying to trade Jackson to anyone and everyone. Not exactly a vote of confidence.
 

Arizona's Finest

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Just came to post this but you beat me to it...

I agree with Law 100% and basically said the same stuff in previous posts. We are not built to win now so giving up on 5 years of Scherzer is stupid. It's a lateral move IMO and I don't see Kennedy bringinng anything to the table in the near future.

There has to be something going on that we don't know about as this trade is unlike Byrnes. Makes no sense

It just kills me how people look at last season and think we are years away from contention. This is the same team that went to the NLCS and 2007 guys. We lost our best pitcher and perennial Cy Young guy and arguably at the time our best hitter for nearly all of the season. In the mean time we had a tough season but some young guys we were waiting on really stepped up.

So yeah, of course Keith Law thinks this is a bad deal. He deals on a national perspective and doesn't know the Dbacks as closely as even the people on this MB. He thinks we are rebuilding. I am of the opinion that if we maintain 2007 health, which is the premise the FO is working on as well, that we should take back the division. We have the best starting rotation and I feel, the most potential line up wise, especially with Manny getting older and worse, not better.

So if we suck next year, then yeah absolutely this deal sucks. But we are NOT in REBUILD mode. We really aren't. We were a young up and coming team in 2007 that had huge injury problems last year.

Anyone who looks at things from a macro-perspective, I just don't see how you don't feel we should roll the dice and go for it next year. Personally as long as we get a couple bully arms and a bat I consider us the favorite in the West. Upton, Haren, and Reynolds gave me a ALOT of faith that we should be even better then 2007, again assuming Webb is back to nearly what he was.
 

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What is tough to quantify at this point is the switch from AL to NL for Jackson (and vice-versa for Scherzer). Jackson has played in the AL Central and AL East for the past two seasons, so one could argue that his numbers stand to improve dramatically by switching to the NL.

In reality we won't be able to determine the winners and losers until two years from now.

One other thing to think about is the fact that Byrnes may not be around for another 5 years. He and the organization need to win now to get fans back in the seats. Additionally, I think it shows that inspite of Tommy John, they feel good about Parker long term to potentially fill Jackson's spot if/when he leaves via FA.
 
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devilfan02

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Jackson is better than Scherzer now and JB needs to get fans interested now not in 5 years.

Now Byrnes can get a couple of bats ( I like Adam Kennedy at 2B and either Xavier Nady or Hank Blalock at 1B on the cheap) with the rest of the dough an maybe a guy like Biemel to replace Schlereth as the lefty specialist.

Dback fans, in general, are some of the most uneducated baseball fans in all of MLB. Most are not not like us on this board who follow what's going on around the league or actually understand what's going on. The entire city wanted to keep Gonzo a couple years back when anyone w/ a baseball IQ knew he had to be shown the door. It's sad but most fans going to games use it as a time to take a power nap as opposed to actually watch the game. If anything, I think this trade might alienate the fan base a little because I don't think most Dbacks fans will even know who Edwin Jackson is. My Dad's a season ticket holder and follows baseball when he can but had to call me to see who Edwin Jackson is and why we would trade Scherzer for him. That's the way most Dbacks fans are IMO

Jackson will eat up at least half of our available money for this offseason. We only have around $5 million left to spend after this trade so you can kiss all the names you mentioned goodbye.

The Diamondbacks are not interested in signing free agent infielder Adam Kennedy, reports Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic.

Ken Rosenthal earlier reported that the club had an interest in the free agent second baseman, but the Diamondbacks quickly refuted the report. With many holes and not enough cash to fill them all, Arizona is focusing its attention elsewhere at this point. Stay tuned.

There's no chance of landing guys like Nady, Blalock, or Nick Johnson unless we don't want to address other areas of need.

Unless the Dbacks ship off some salary currently on the books (Snyder/Young/Byrnes), they'll be signing a handful of vets or unproven players to league minimum deals. Not good considering this FO can't find a veteran reliever(s) to save their lives.
 
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Lefty

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Like I said, I'm going to wait and see regarding this deal. I really hope it works out. Kennedy could be the wild card. He was a very good pitcher at USC.

I think this team can compete this year in the NL West but I hope Brynes gets some arms for the bullpen. The bullpen was atrocious last year and if they want to compete, they need some new guys, especially someone who can get outs in the 8th inning.
 

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Dback fans, in general, are some of the most uneducated baseball fans in all of MLB. Most are not not like us on this board who follow what's going on around the league or actually understand what's going on. The entire city wanted to keep Gonzo a couple years back when anyone w/ a baseball IQ knew he had to be shown the door. It's sad but most fans going to games use it as a time to take a power nap as opposed to actually watch the game. If anything, I think this trade might alienate the fan base a little because I don't think most Dbacks fans will even know who Edwin Jackson is. My Dad's a season ticket holder and follows baseball when he can but had to call me to see who Edwin Jackson is and why we would trade Scherzer for him. That's the way most Dbacks fans are IMO

Jackson will eat up at least half of our available money for this offseason. We only have around $5 million left to spend after this trade so you can kiss all the names you mentioned goodbye.



There's no chance of landing guys like Nady, Blalock, or Nick Johnson unless we don't want to address other areas of need.

Unless the Dbacks ship off some salary currently on the books (Snyder/Young/Byrnes), they'll be signing a handful of vets or unproven players to league minimum deals. Not good considering this FO can't find a veteran reliever(s) to save their lives.

Man are you sour.... Regarding people being unaware of Edwin Jackson - do you really think that is only the case for D-Back fans?? Get real dude...
Secondly, D-Back fans will come to know Jackson well once he performs and produces like I believe he will. He is also reported to be a tremendous clubhouse guy who also gets very involved in the local community. I have little doubt that Edwin Jackson will not be an unkown for very long here in the Valley.

Not sure how you get to the notion that Jackson will "eat up half" of our available funds?? It was said that the D-Backs were willing to spend approximately $15million. Jackson will most likely command a $5million salary in arbitration. By my math, that leaves $10million... of course, I have no idea what Kennedy will be paid and/or how the elimination of Scherzer and Schlereth will factor in.

Your point on Snyder/Young/Byrnes is appropriate however... those contracts KILL us. Just not sure there are any valid options for these three...And as I have always contended, the worst of the three is CY. $6million a year on him is sooooo pathetically wrong. And worse, we can't unload him as there isn't a team in baseball who would ever be so hugely STUPID as to pay him that type of money. He alone will continue to kill this team more than any other single player. Uggghhhhh....
 

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It just kills me how people look at last season and think we are years away from contention. This is the same team that went to the NLCS and 2007 guys. We lost our best pitcher and perennial Cy Young guy and arguably at the time our best hitter for nearly all of the season. In the mean time we had a tough season but some young guys we were waiting on really stepped up.

So yeah, of course Keith Law thinks this is a bad deal. He deals on a national perspective and doesn't know the Dbacks as closely as even the people on this MB. He thinks we are rebuilding. I am of the opinion that if we maintain 2007 health, which is the premise the FO is working on as well, that we should take back the division. We have the best starting rotation and I feel, the most potential line up wise, especially with Manny getting older and worse, not better.

So if we suck next year, then yeah absolutely this deal sucks. But we are NOT in REBUILD mode. We really aren't. We were a young up and coming team in 2007 that had huge injury problems last year.

Anyone who looks at things from a macro-perspective, I just don't see how you don't feel we should roll the dice and go for it next year. Personally as long as we get a couple bully arms and a bat I consider us the favorite in the West. Upton, Haren, and Reynolds gave me a ALOT of faith that we should be even better then 2007, again assuming Webb is back to nearly what he was.


And it kills me that people fail to point out that the 2007 Dbacks had the worst offense in baseball that relied heavily on their starting pitching AND bullpen. That team was one of the only teams in the history of baseball to make the playoffs while being outscored during the regular season. If you want to hang your hat on that season then so be it but seasons like that happen once in a lifetime.

The 2010 Dbacks won't stand a chance without a strong bullpen and that's especially true considering Webb and Kennedy are both wildcards at this point. Our bullpen is currently a joke and there's now no money to address the glaring holes in this area.

I wouldn't dismiss Keith Laws opinion either. He broke down the trade very well and is dead on. 2007 was an aberration and our offense has been bad now for years -

2007 - 26th in runs scored (14/17 in NL), 29th in batting average (last in NL), and 29th in OBP (last in NL).

2008 - 20th in runs scored (10/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (14/16 in NL), and 19th in OBP (8/16 in NL).

2009 - 20th in runs scored (13/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (13/16 in NL), and 22nd in OBP (11/16 in NL).

Therefore, over the last 3 seasons we've consisitently been ranked in the 20's when it comes to runs scored, batting average, and OBP. We also have not finished in the top half of any of those categories in the NL over the past 3 seasons. Overall, not an offense that can be depended on.

I do agree with you on one thing - The FO isn't in rebuild mode. However, they should also realize that we're not a contender either. They are taking a huge gamble on Webb being healthy which all odds are against. They are gambling with Kennedy by believing that A) he can stay healthy and B) he can contribute at the MLB level. He has proven neither. They're also taking a huge gamble by not taking our bullpen problem seriously (still can be addressed but with limited money available it appears they're comfortable with the crappy pen that's in place).

I am of the opinion that we're not necessarily in rebuild mode becuase we have a lot of good pieces in-place. However, Edwin Jackson was unnecesarry at the expense of Scherzer to supposedly make us a "contender." There are too many holes with far too limited resources
 

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And it kills me that people fail to point out that the 2007 Dbacks had the worst offense in baseball that relied heavily on their starting pitching AND bullpen. That team was one of the only teams in the history of baseball to make the playoffs while being outscored during the regular season. If you want to hang your hat on that season then so be it but seasons like that happen once in a lifetime.

The 2010 Dbacks won't stand a chance without a strong bullpen and that's especially true considering Webb and Kennedy are both wildcards at this point. Our bullpen is currently a joke and there's now no money to address the glaring holes in this area.

I wouldn't dismiss Keith Laws opinion either. He broke down the trade very well and is dead on. 2007 was an aberration and our offense has been bad now for years -

2007 - 26th in runs scored (14/17 in NL), 29th in batting average (last in NL), and 29th in OBP (last in NL).

2008 - 20th in runs scored (10/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (14/16 in NL), and 19th in OBP (8/16 in NL).

2009 - 20th in runs scored (13/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (13/16 in NL), and 22nd in OBP (11/16 in NL).

Therefore, over the last 3 seasons we've consisitently been ranked in the 20's when it comes to runs scored, batting average, and OBP. We also have not finished in the top half of any of those categories in the NL over the past 3 seasons. Overall, not an offense that can be depended on.

I do agree with you on one thing - The FO isn't in rebuild mode. However, they should also realize that we're not a contender either. They are taking a huge gamble on Webb being healthy which all odds are against. They are gambling with Kennedy by believing that A) he can stay healthy and B) he can contribute at the MLB level. He has proven neither. They're also taking a huge gamble by not taking our bullpen problem seriously (still can be addressed but with limited money available it appears they're comfortable with the crappy pen that's in place).

I am of the opinion that we're not necessarily in rebuild mode becuase we have a lot of good pieces in-place. However, Edwin Jackson was unnecesarry at the expense of Scherzer to supposedly make us a "contender." There are too many holes with far too limited resources


1.) Webb - I suppose you would have been ok had the D-Backs allowed him to walk? Sure...

2.) Edwin Jackson is an upgrade over Scherzer, regardless of your reluctance to admit to that reality...

3.) The D-Backs offense has been BRUTAL. Nobody could ever argue otherwise. However, unless you know of a way to unload CY/Snyder and Byrnes, there isn't much left for the D-Backs to do here... We can only hope (and hope is a crappy strategy) that Upton, Drew, Brandon Allen, CoJack, Montero, Roberts, etc.. can all continue to develop and produce at better than average levels. I think we know what to expect out of Reynolds. But until we can also realize a consistent source of power somewhere else (Upton is close), such as First Base or Catcher, we will continue to face serious challenges offensively...

4.) You continue to exaggerate the condition of the bullpen. Qualls is more than adequate as a closer. Gutierrez is way more than adequate as a set-up man. Yes, long relief is iffy - but try listing all of the teams that can say their long/middle relief isn't iffy? The fact is this element of the pen is an issue for the vast majority of teams in MLB!

C'mon man... You seriously need to lighten up!!
 

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And it kills me that people fail to point out that the 2007 Dbacks had the worst offense in baseball that relied heavily on their starting pitching AND bullpen. That team was one of the only teams in the history of baseball to make the playoffs while being outscored during the regular season. If you want to hang your hat on that season then so be it but seasons like that happen once in a lifetime.

The 2010 Dbacks won't stand a chance without a strong bullpen and that's especially true considering Webb and Kennedy are both wildcards at this point. Our bullpen is currently a joke and there's now no money to address the glaring holes in this area.

I wouldn't dismiss Keith Laws opinion either. He broke down the trade very well and is dead on. 2007 was an aberration and our offense has been bad now for years -

2007 - 26th in runs scored (14/17 in NL), 29th in batting average (last in NL), and 29th in OBP (last in NL).

2008 - 20th in runs scored (10/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (14/16 in NL), and 19th in OBP (8/16 in NL).

2009 - 20th in runs scored (13/16 in NL), 27th in batting average (13/16 in NL), and 22nd in OBP (11/16 in NL).

Therefore, over the last 3 seasons we've consisitently been ranked in the 20's when it comes to runs scored, batting average, and OBP. We also have not finished in the top half of any of those categories in the NL over the past 3 seasons. Overall, not an offense that can be depended on.

I do agree with you on one thing - The FO isn't in rebuild mode. However, they should also realize that we're not a contender either. They are taking a huge gamble on Webb being healthy which all odds are against. They are gambling with Kennedy by believing that A) he can stay healthy and B) he can contribute at the MLB level. He has proven neither. They're also taking a huge gamble by not taking our bullpen problem seriously (still can be addressed but with limited money available it appears they're comfortable with the crappy pen that's in place).

I am of the opinion that we're not necessarily in rebuild mode becuase we have a lot of good pieces in-place. However, Edwin Jackson was unnecesarry at the expense of Scherzer to supposedly make us a "contender." There are too many holes with far too limited resources

So wait a minute. You are a Diamondback fan but you are going to concede to the national public common thought that the Dbacks were never that good because of ......freaking run differential? What don't people get about what it takes in baseball to be successful? Unless you can spend Yankee type money your not going to have a Murder's Row in your lineup. Your buying into that crap that we were an anomaly and shouldn't have been there? That team was built for pitching and defense and we whupped a more talented Cubs team and only lost to a white hot Rockies team. As a purported fan it incenses me that you are buying into that crap. If you watched that team day in and day out you knew that wasn't lucky in the least. They just got bombed on days their top three pitchers didn't start.

And in case you weren't watching last year Mark Reynolds and Justin Upton turned into All Stars. So adding those two bast to a more median BA for the rest of the team (like 2007) equals much better team.

Why do you think everyone was so shocked and disappointed last year? Its because this team was designed to keep growing and getting better and last year was an anamoly with regards to the injuries I listed previously. How are you so ready to scrap everything when the FO and 95% of the fan base think we have the stuff to win? Why keep building for this mythical 2013 season?

Granted we need more. But this trade to me signifies that we picked up 2 starters (one with two good years to build from) for around 6 million so we are getting better production AND reasonable cost. Maybe we should have gotten Yankees to take on a salary like Snyder or Byrnes but otherwise I am okay with this deal.

So I agree we need more bullpen help and another bat. but now we have 10 million to work with and the legit 1-2-3 in the majors. I like our odds.
 

Dback Jon

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Hey 82 - so is a .249 hitter (.327 OBP) good for a center fielder?
 

DWKB

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Last year the Yankees won the WS with a CF production line of .273/.338/.400/.739 (.228/.267/.246/.512 in the postseason to boot) so somehow I don't think Granderson is going to damage the team.

Of course it does damage one of the "guaranteed ways to build a WS contender" of a certain poster on here :D
 

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Last year the Yankees won the WS with a CF production line of .273/.338/.400/.739 (.228/.267/.246/.512 in the postseason to boot) so somehow I don't think Granderson is going to damage the team.

Of course it does damage one of the "guaranteed ways to build a WS contender" of a certain poster on here :D

You can't make these statements without completely discounting the impact of Hall of Famers such as Jeter and A-Rod. Now, if you want to put that type of talent on the D-Backs, I will GLADLY settle for CY in centerfield!!!
;)
 

Dback Jon

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You're a crack up! Try this:

Career Stats:

Player A:
Batting Average: .272
OBP: .344
SLG %: .484
OPS: .828

Player B:
.235
.307
.438
.745

And Player A is on a three year skid - looks like he hit his peak in 2007. Now he is swinging for the fences :)
 

82CardsGrad

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And Player A is on a three year skid - looks like he hit his peak in 2007. Now he is swinging for the fences :)

Dude is 28 years old and runs like the wind... I'll take his skid any day over Player B! Particularly on that team and in the ballpark, where the short right field fence will be an extreme advantage for this 28 year old who hit his "peak" in '07!!!! LOL!

:p
 

Dback Jon

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Dude is 28 years old and runs like the wind... I'll take his skid any day over Player B! Particularly on that team and in the ballpark, where the short right field fence will be an extreme advantage for this 28 year old who hit his "peak" in '07!!!! LOL!

:p

The Jeffrey Mayer Porch will be of advantage to Granderson.
 

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I find ot hillarious, and ONLY IN BASEBALL where a team in a 3way trade gives up the two best players of the deal and some "experts" believe they actually won the deal....

I am of the opinion that this success of this trade relies on a two-folded future..

A. The Dbacks find a way to resign Jackson (and for all those naysaysers, you are probably the ones wo thought there was no chance of us resigning Haren, but we did, I have to believe the Dbacks made this trade with the belief that they can resign Jackson)

B. HOw Kennedy performs.... Kennedy is apparently look highly upon those who have watched him pitch in person this offseason... If the Dback scouts say he looks solid, I will give him the benefit of the doubt, that maybe he is fully recovered, and if so, could swing the winner of this trade squarely in the Dbacks favor...

We will see how this trade is looked at 3 years from now, but it definently was made for the here and now, and I think it will pay dividends...
 

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