Darnold to the Panthers

[overseascardfan]

Unless NYJ acquire some receivers and OL help there going to be in this position again with Zach Wilson. Wilson is a huge gamble seeing how he really didn't take off until his JR year and only played against 2 Top 25 teams this year and looked mediocre against Coastal Carolina.

 

[Chopper0080]

For the umpteenth time, like we discussed in the other thread, I'm only saying RB in round 1 because the right guys won't be there in the 2nd. It's go in the first or accept Edmonds as the unquestioned #1 RB for a 17 game season.

and, once again, reaches like this are the reasons bad teams are bad and good teams take RBs in round 2 or 3 vs round 1. All these examples show that teams who use your rationale fail to make the playoffs and compete for a title. Your taking draft tips out of the pages of franchises like the Giants, Panthers, Raiders, and Jaguars has to suddenly work.

 

[Solar7]

and, once again, reaches like this are the reasons bad teams are bad and good teams take RBs in round 2 or 3 vs round 1. All these examples show that teams who use your rationale fail to make the playoffs and compete for a title. Your taking draft tips out of the pages of franchises like the Giants, Panthers, Raiders, and Jaguars has to suddenly work.

Good teams also don't rely on a guy like Chase Edmonds and two 7th round/undrafted guys to back him up for the league's first 17 game season.

It's like you're being purposely obtuse - I know teams do well drafting in the 2nd and 3rd round, and I'd love to draft in the 2nd round if I felt like someone was going to be around, and I'd love to draft in the 3rd if we had a pick. Unfortunately we don't, so we have to make due, because our RB room sucks.

Good teams don't enter the season with this level of underinvestment at the RB position. We haven't been a good team in 5 years though.

 

[Stout]

and, once again, reaches like this are the reasons bad teams are bad and good teams take RBs in round 2 or 3 vs round 1. All these examples show that teams who use your rationale fail to make the playoffs and compete for a title. Your taking draft tips out of the pages of franchises like the Giants, Panthers, Raiders, and Jaguars has to suddenly work.

I think these 2 back-to-back posts say it all. You're not wrong, Chopper, in the abstract. It's not normally a good idea. I get that, and I think Solar gets that, too. The problem is, Keim has put us in a no-win position. We are so bad at the position that we have to work just to get an average RB room. And the depth might not be there in the draft to get that room to average.

Good teams also don't rely on a guy like Chase Edmonds and two 7th round/undrafted guys to back him up for the league's first 17 game season.

It's like you're being purposely obtuse - I know teams do well drafting in the 2nd and 3rd round, and I'd love to draft in the 2nd round if I felt like someone was going to be around, and I'd love to draft in the 3rd if we had a pick. Unfortunately we don't, so we have to make due, because our RB room sucks.

Good teams don't enter the season with this level of underinvestment at the RB position. We haven't been a good team in 5 years though.

Your first line is bang on, Solar. I think our saving grace is that RBs tend to slide a bit, so we may be able to wait until the 2nd. We sure in the hell can't wait until later, or we're criminally neglecting the position. I REALLY didn't want us to take a RB with one of our top picks, but...I mean, what else do you do? Keim has screwed us again.

 

[QuebecCard]

I think these 2 back-to-back posts say it all. You're not wrong, Chopper, in the abstract. It's not normally a good idea. I get that, and I think Solar gets that, too. The problem is, Keim has put us in a no-win position. We are so bad at the position that we have to work just to get an average RB room. And the depth might not be there in the draft to get that room to average.



Your first line is bang on, Solar. I think our saving grace is that RBs tend to slide a bit, so we may be able to wait until the 2nd. We sure in the hell can't wait until later, or we're criminally neglecting the position. I REALLY didn't want us to take a RB with one of our top picks, but...I mean, what else do you do? Keim has screwed us again.

How about chapter and verse on how Keim screwed us on the RB front?

 

[Chopper0080]

I think these 2 back-to-back posts say it all. You're not wrong, Chopper, in the abstract. It's not normally a good idea. I get that, and I think Solar gets that, too. The problem is, Keim has put us in a no-win position. We are so bad at the position that we have to work just to get an average RB room. And the depth might not be there in the draft to get that room to average.



Your first line is bang on, Solar. I think our saving grace is that RBs tend to slide a bit, so we may be able to wait until the 2nd. We sure in the hell can't wait until later, or we're criminally neglecting the position. I REALLY didn't want us to take a RB with one of our top picks, but...I mean, what else do you do? Keim has screwed us again.

I don't disagree about counting on Edmonds or wanting more from our alternative RB. My point is that the rationale of having to take a RB in round 1 because one of the best RBs may not be available when we pick in round 2 is a losing franchise mentality. Last years playoffs show that the drop off between the top 2 or 3 backs and the top next 2 or 3 is not that huge. Also, using the lack of a 3rd rnd pick to reach with our 1st round pick instead of our 2nd is also flawed thinking.

The debate to be had by those who want more from our RB room and those who are less concerned is what is the gap between the talent available in round 2 and round 5 of the draft vs what is currently available in free agency.

The other area that I am getting annoyed with is this belief that our roster has to have depth everywhere. It doesn't. It needs to have depth at key positions which leads to the debate is it better to draft Joseph Ossai in round 2 or Javonte Williams/TreySermon/Kenneth Gainwell?

 

[Solar7]

I think these 2 back-to-back posts say it all. You're not wrong, Chopper, in the abstract. It's not normally a good idea. I get that, and I think Solar gets that, too. The problem is, Keim has put us in a no-win position. We are so bad at the position that we have to work just to get an average RB room. And the depth might not be there in the draft to get that room to average.



Your first line is bang on, Solar. I think our saving grace is that RBs tend to slide a bit, so we may be able to wait until the 2nd. We sure in the hell can't wait until later, or we're criminally neglecting the position. I REALLY didn't want us to take a RB with one of our top picks, but...I mean, what else do you do? Keim has screwed us again.

Yeah, I'm trying to convince myself every time I read a mock that none of the top 3 go in the first round, and teams don't gobble them up in the 17 picks before we pick in the second. I count about 9 picks between us drafting in the 1st and the second where teams have a big hole at RB and would gladly take one of those RBs. The Dolphins twice, Jets twice, Jaguars thrice, Steelers, Falcons, and then there's teams that could make a reasonable argument for the move, or teams that just outright surprise you. But especially those multi-pick teams I could see filling a need spot and then getting impact players at RB.

 

[Solar7]

I don't disagree about counting on Edmonds or wanting more from our alternative RB. My point is that the rationale of having to take a RB in round 1 because one of the best RBs may not be available when we pick in round 2 is a losing franchise mentality. Last years playoffs show that the drop off between the top 2 or 3 backs and the top next 2 or 3 is not that huge. Also, using the lack of a 3rd rnd pick to reach with our 1st round pick instead of our 2nd is also flawed thinking.

The debate to be had by those who want more from our RB room and those who are less concerned is what is the gap between the talent available in round 2 and round 5 of the draft vs what is currently available in free agency.

The other area that I am getting annoyed with is this belief that our roster has to have depth everywhere. It doesn't. It needs to have depth at key positions which leads to the debate is it better to draft Joseph Ossai in round 2 or Javonte Williams/TreySermon/Kenneth Gainwell?

The point about not reaching in the 2nd is the huge talent disparity. There isn't anyone who is not grading the top 3 as a potential 1st or 2nd round pick. Once they go, it's all over the board. Talk to some people and they think Trey Sermon and Kenneth Gainwell will be around in the 4th round or further. If you want my personal opinion, Sermon will get picked somewhere in the 3rd and likely be overdrafted as a pure short yardage specialist, and Gainwell would be a poor complement to the rest of our room at his size. I also have to repeat, we're not talking the difference between the top three backs and the top next three, we're talking the difference between the top 3 and top 13th or so back if recent history is to be an indicator of how many go by the time we pick in the 5th.

Yeah, I think free agency is full of absolutely cooked or never had it backs that will leave us ripping our hair out when the entire RB room can't get a single thing going and every play is on Kyler. I don't see how anyone can have faith in any of those guys if they watched them play last year.

Lastly, this conversation has nothing to do with "depth everywhere." It is "the position lacks a starter." I firmly feel, and at least a few others do, that Edmonds is not a starting caliber RB in the NFL. He has been given 4 career opportunities to be the guy and has put up 4 poor performances. He has also dealt with recurring hamstring injuries and is undersized. Depth at OLB isn't going to win us games when the RBs are putting up a sub-4.0 YPC. We simply lack talent at the starting spot, AND depth. Worst of both worlds.

 

[Stout]

How about chapter and verse on how Keim screwed us on the RB front?

He left the cupboard bare at the position. If we want to talk about how week the FA class is, then why isn't he anticipating that? If we want to talk about not having a pick to draft one high enough, or having enough draft talent at the position to wait, then that's another failure. If we go into the season with a sub-par RB with nothing else at the position, we are certainly not just not putting ourselves in a position to succeed, but actively putting the team in a position to fail. That's on SK.

 

[QuebecCard]

He left the cupboard bare at the position. If we want to talk about how week the FA class is, then why isn't he anticipating that? If we want to talk about not having a pick to draft one high enough, or having enough draft talent at the position to wait, then that's another failure. If we go into the season with a sub-par RB with nothing else at the position, we are certainly not just not putting ourselves in a position to succeed, but actively putting the team in a position to fail. That's on SK.

We have three RB's under contract, not bare.

What precisely would you have him do if, as you say, the FA class is weak? Overpay the guy we had last season?

As to draft capital: would you rather have a third-round pick that could go to a RB or a starting centre?

So far, this is what he's done with a lower cap.

Trades, FA signings, Contracts adjusted, etc. for 2021 season

Rodney Hudson (C) (from LV for 3rd. rd pick)

Mason Cole (to Minny for 6th rd pick)

JJ Watt (DE)

AJ Green (WO)

Malcolm Butler (CB)

Robert Alford (CB)

Markus Golden (OLB)

Kelvin Beachum (T)

Brian Winters (G)

Max Garcia (G/C)

Dennis Gardeck (LB)

Ezekiel Turner (LB)

Tanner Vallejo (LB)

Kylie Fitts (LB)

David Parry (DT)

Charles Washington (S)

Shawn Williams (S)

Chris Banjo (S)

Matt Prater (K)

Andy Lee (P)

Colt McCoy (QB)

Darrel Daniels (TE)

Justin Pugh (contract adjusted)

Jordan Hicks (contract adjusted)

 

[Stout]

We have three RB's under contract, not bare.

What precisely would you have him do if, as you say, the FA class is weak? Overpay the guy we had last season?

As to draft capital: would you rather have a third-round pick that could go to a RB or a starting centre?

LOL Steve, is that you? So, instead of discussing our RB deficiencies, I should be perfectly happy and recline to consume tea and crumpets? "Having RBs under contract" /= "Cupboard isn't bare." You know that; you're just being purposefully obtuse and argumentative. Won't blame you for being argumentative, as I know the feeling. But, yeah, nobody's swallowing that the cupboard isn't bare right now. I don't think even Steve Keim would argue that, if you held his feet to the fire.

Trading for Hudson is irrelevant, because we needed to upgrade both positions. If anything, it shows out Keim as a worse GM, because he had to take a pick we could've used on a RB to solve a different problem. It's not an either/or scenario. Screw up as a GM and leave too many holes with too little draft capital, with FA thin in those key positions, and it gets you...well, here. With too many holes to fill and not enough picks/quality FAs to fill them adequately.

Forget wanting to fill all the holes with top-of-the-line-starters; we need to be at least AVERAGE at the position. And average is floating about twenty feet above us in a life raft.

 

[QuebecCard]

LOL Steve, is that you? So, instead of discussing our RB deficiencies, I should be perfectly happy and recline to consume tea and crumpets? "Having RBs under contract" /= "Cupboard isn't bare." You know that; you're just being purposefully obtuse and argumentative. Won't blame you for being argumentative, as I know the feeling. But, yeah, nobody's swallowing that the cupboard isn't bare right now. I don't think even Steve Keim would argue that, if you held his feet to the fire.

Trading for Hudson is irrelevant, because we needed to upgrade both positions. If anything, it shows out Keim as a worse GM, because he had to take a pick we could've used on a RB to solve a different problem. It's not an either/or scenario. Screw up as a GM and leave too many holes with too little draft capital, with FA thin in those key positions, and it gets you...well, here. With too many holes to fill and not enough picks/quality FAs to fill them adequately.

Forget wanting to fill all the holes with top-of-the-line-starters; we need to be at least AVERAGE at the position. And average is floating about twenty feet above us in a life raft.

Ok - won't go here again.

You'd be bloviating over a third-string QB if that was all that was left to you.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We have three RB's under contract, not bare.

What precisely would you have him do if, as you say, the FA class is weak? Overpay the guy we had last season?

As to draft capital: would you rather have a third-round pick that could go to a RB or a starting centre?

So far, this is what he's done with a lower cap.

Trades, FA signings, Contracts adjusted, etc. for 2021 season

Rodney Hudson (C) (from LV for 3rd. rd pick)

Mason Cole (to Minny for 6th rd pick)

JJ Watt (DE)

AJ Green (WO)

Malcolm Butler (CB)

Robert Alford (CB)

Markus Golden (OLB)

Kelvin Beachum (T)

Brian Winters (G)

Max Garcia (G/C)

Dennis Gardeck (LB)

Ezekiel Turner (LB)

Tanner Vallejo (LB)

Kylie Fitts (LB)

David Parry (DT)

Charles Washington (S)

Shawn Williams (S)

Chris Banjo (S)

Matt Prater (K)

Andy Lee (P)

Colt McCoy (QB)

Darrel Daniels (TE)

Justin Pugh (contract adjusted)

Jordan Hicks (contract adjusted)

All of which may be great or okay or subpar or suck. None of which solves:

chase
Eno (couldn’t get on field)
A dude with a single catch at the nfl level

call it “not bare” but you’re deluded if that’s not an issue. Not a single nfl coach would be confident entering the season with that “stable” of nags.

 

[QuebecCard]

All of which may be great or okay or subpar or suck. None of which solves:

chase
Eno (couldn’t get on field)
A dude with a single catch at the nfl level

call it “not bare” but you’re deluded if that’s not an issue. Not a single nfl coach would be confident entering the season with that “stable” of nags.

Did I say it wasn't an issue?

I'm hoping for Javonte Williams in the second round.

 

[cardncubfan]

The team is definitely deficient at RB. In my opinion Keim has had a pretty good off season so far considering the circumstances. I feel we've improved as a team overall with the additions & a subtraction.

 

[Stout]

Ok - won't go here again.

You'd be bloviating over a third-string QB if that was all that was left to you.

Right. Provoke with a ridiculously dumb comment about the RBs, then accuse me of bloviating for reacting to it. Mm hm. Doubt you'll stick to the "won't go here again" promise. But, hey, it's all good. Which one of us hasn't done stupid things on a message board before?

 

[QuebecCard]

Right. Provoke with a ridiculously dumb comment about the RBs, then accuse me of bloviating for reacting to it. Mm hm. Doubt you'll stick to the "won't go here again" promise. But, hey, it's all good. Which one of us hasn't done stupid things on a message board before?

Answer: me.

 

[Stout]

Answer: me.

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