DCU: Justice League

[NJCardFan]

these aren't easy fixes. First this is no established Dick Grayson or Nightwing in this universe and if anything, the previous movies established if there was, he's dead (that bronze statue Batman stared at that the Joker defaced was a Robyn/Nightwing suit in Bats V. Supes). And they sure as hell ain't bringing back Routh, the guy who's only Superman movie was a close to a bomb over a decade ago.

That was Jason Todd and not Dick Grayson.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That was Jason Todd and not Dick Grayson.

So says the director... after the movie, but never mentioned anywhere in the actual movie, which means the general public outside die hard comic fans have no clue that it was Jason Todd... or even who Jason Todd is. So, that's problem number one.

Second, those movies are made for EVERYONE, not just comic book fans, so, if you try to retcon and bring Todd's name up, you're going to confuse them right off the bat bringing up Jason Todd as Robyn and not Dick Grayson.

Third, even if you went that angle, it still doesn't change the more important fact that Dick Grayson/Nightwing has in no way shape or form been established in that DC universe.

Fourth, even if you DID somehow establish Dick Grayson... without Batman... and he somehow went on to become Nightwing anyway, he isn't nearly as big of a draw as Batman.

 

[NJCardFan]

Third, even if you went that angle, it still doesn't change the more important fact that Dick Grayson/Nightwing has in no way shape or form been established in that DC universe.

Fourth, even if you DID somehow establish Dick Grayson... without Batman... and he somehow went on to become Nightwing anyway, he isn't nearly as big of a draw as Batman.

Neither was Aquaman, Flash, or Cyborg until BvS. These movies are ripe with deus ex machinas and they could make it work. JL also mentioned exploding penguins so we know the Penguin is in this universe even though we didn't see him. They can do what they want and make it work. Hell, Marvel has had 3 different Bruce Banners for crying out loud.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Neither was Aquaman, Flash, or Cyborg until BvS. These movies are ripe with deus ex machinas and they could make it work. JL also mentioned exploding penguins so we know the Penguin is in this universe even though we didn't see him. They can do what they want and make it work. Hell, Marvel has had 3 different Bruce Banners for crying out loud.

You're right. I'm sure they're going to perfectly fine continuing to throw massive amounts of money at the JL without Batman, an over decade old Superman that not many people liked or even remember, all after that last Justice League movie was a MASSIVE bomb.

Just saying... what you advocate is problematic and extremely unlikely for a host of reasons.

 

[Stout]

Neither was Aquaman, Flash, or Cyborg until BvS. These movies are ripe with deus ex machinas and they could make it work. JL also mentioned exploding penguins so we know the Penguin is in this universe even though we didn't see him. They can do what they want and make it work. Hell, Marvel has had 3 different Bruce Banners for crying out loud.

And Aquaman and Cyborg still aren't, even though they're getting their own movies. Flash already had a fan base because of the show.

 

[NJCardFan]

And Aquaman and Cyborg still aren't, even though they're getting their own movies. Flash already had a fan base because of the show.

But they didn't use the same actor. They even changed his back story which is my point. They'll deus ex machina the changes. Superman might make way for Supergirl, they can replace Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson(who they can easily write in). They can even write Batman out and replace him with Green Lantern. Marvel has already replaced the Hulk 3 times and Spiderman 3 times.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But they didn't use the same actor. They even changed his back story which is my point. They'll deus ex machina the changes. Superman might make way for Supergirl, they can replace Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson(who they can easily write in). They can even write Batman out and replace him with Green Lantern. Marvel has already replaced the Hulk 3 times and Spiderman 3 times.

Again, what you're suggesting is they keep doing the deus ex machina... even though IT HASN'T WORKED for DC as Justice League was a massive bomb with one of the main reasons being because of the backlash against that practice in Bats V. Supes where it all felt so rushed.

That's not just bad from a creative perspective, it's terrible from a business perspective. It's basically saying "well, this is what we tried in the past and we fell flat on our face with Justice League. Let's do it AGAIN and hope this time it works?" That don't track.

And you can't compare Marvel to DC. Once Marvel actually got up on it's feet and started producing their own movies with Iron Man, they took their time building their brand with individual movies about individual heroes most of which were either box office success AND great casting. They built a massive amount of goodwill with phase 1 and then got the golden ticket to do whatever they wanted moving forward with a 1.5 billion bonanza with The Avengers. That massive box office success PLUS critical raves enabled them to make a couple changes on the fly, whereas DC has made a bunch of movies that have been generally reviled and some of it is BECAUSE they keep making changes on the fly before establishing a world that the audience has bought into.

Not only that, but SONY made the first two Spiderman movies and when Marvel finally got the rights, AGAIN everyone accepted it because a) they'd built up the goodwill to do so and b) because they NAILED the character.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And Aquaman and Cyborg still aren't, even though they're getting their own movies. Flash already had a fan base because of the show.

Cyborg ain't getting a movie.

 

[GatorAZ]

I liked Cyborg’s character more than Flash in the JL movie. I thought the actor playing Flash was cringeworthy. Then again Cyborg’s CGI was equally cringeworthy. What a mess.

 

[Stout]

I liked Cyborg’s character more than Flash in the JL movie. I thought the actor playing Flash was cringeworthy. Then again Cyborg’s CGI was equally cringeworthy. What a mess.

As was Cyborg's godlike abilities. "It's an eight (guessing) hour flight!"--"Not how I fly!" What, you got a time machine in your pocket or something, Cyborg?

 

[GatorAZ]

As was Cyborg's godlike abilities. "It's an eight (guessing) hour flight!"--"Not how I fly!" What, you got a time machine in your pocket or something, Cyborg?

So much fail. They should’ve just given Zack all the time he needed with his family and waited for him to come back. Whedon’s reshoots were so bad.

 

[Chaplin]

So much fail. They should’ve just given Zack all the time he needed with his family and waited for him to come back. Whedon’s reshoots were so bad.

Now THIS is something I never thought I’d read. Most people I talk to say Whedon didn’t do ENOUGH reshooting to save the movie from Zach Snyder.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So much fail. They should’ve just given Zack all the time he needed with his family and waited for him to come back. Whedon’s reshoots were so bad.

all reports were his film was an even bigger train wreck than Bats v. Supes.

 

[GatorAZ]

all reports were his film was an even bigger train wreck than Bats v. Supes.

JL was going to be complete wreck regardless but I thought the reshoots were visible and pretty bad. Warner Bros thought it was too dark and added all those lame jokes plus the CGI lip disaster because they would’ve been sued had they not met their original release date. You can see some Snyder cuts on YouTube that weren’t in the movie.

 

[GatorAZ]

Now THIS is something I never thought I’d read. Most people I talk to say Whedon didn’t do ENOUGH reshooting to save the movie from Zach Snyder.

They tried to make JL more fun based on BvS being over-the-top dark. Especially Batman who was a complete joke in JL compared to BvS. That seemed studio driven moreso than Snyder.

 

[Cheesebeef]

JL was going to be complete wreck regardless but I thought the reshoots were visible and pretty bad. Warner Bros thought it was too dark and added all those lame jokes plus the CGI lip disaster because they would’ve been sued had they not met their original release date. You can see some Snyder cuts on YouTube that weren’t in the movie.

don't disagree all that much. I think they were just throwing good money after bad, hoping, praying that a little Whedon magic could go a long way. Instead they just got this mismatched pile of crap that was uglier than Jeff Goldblum halfway through The Fly.

 

[GatorAZ]

Haha I forgot how good these were.

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[oaken1]

As was Cyborg's godlike abilities. "It's an eight (guessing) hour flight!"--"Not how I fly!" What, you got a time machine in your pocket or something, Cyborg?

I took that to mean that his alien interface technology would optimize the engine efficiency thereby dramatically increasing speed.
cyborg was badass,... though they used him more as a team nerd than for firepower.
I dont recall too much about him from the comics... does his tech always continue to evolve or did it stop at some point??...and the auto defend...did it always act on its own?

 

[Stout]

I took that to mean that his alien interface technology would optimize the engine efficiency thereby dramatically increasing speed.
cyborg was badass,... though they used him more as a team nerd than for firepower.
I dont recall too much about him from the comics... does his tech always continue to evolve or did it stop at some point??...and the auto defend...did it always act on its own?

Except that's not how it works...that's not how PHYSICS works! You're talking about "magic" tech, not sci-fi (in that world) tech. Just really, really lame writing.

 

[oaken1]

Except that's not how it works...that's not how PHYSICS works! You're talking about "magic" tech, not sci-fi (in that world) tech. Just really, really lame writing.

I dunno man. I had this little ford with a 1.2L engine in it. changed the plugs and added a cold air induction kit and suddenly that little thing was quick as all hell.
didnt change the engine, just optimized the fire and airflow..
maybe cyborg could fine tune that bird to levels wayne tech just never thought of.

and physics aint a good fall back in a show where you have a dude powered by the sun who flies and another who runs faster than cameras can catch.... I mean come on, the kinetic energy would vaporize Barry,..but instead it only shreds his clothes, lol.

 

[Stout]

I dunno man. I had this little ford with a 1.2L engine in it. changed the plugs and added a cold air induction kit and suddenly that little thing was quick as all hell.
didnt change the engine, just optimized the fire and airflow..
maybe cyborg could fine tune that bird to levels wayne tech just never thought of.

and physics aint a good fall back in a show where you have a dude powered by the sun who flies and another who runs faster than cameras can catch.... I mean come on, the kinetic energy would vaporize Barry,..but instead it only shreds his clothes, lol.

No. The assumptions here insult my writer brain so much Physics ABSOLUTELY is the ONLY fall back available, in a world without actual magic. Even super hero movies need to be internally consistent. You just aren't shaving 5 or 10 hours off by fiddling with the tech. It's a stupid, gaping plot hole that miraculously made it through edits. I'm guessing it fell through the cracks between the different directors.

Edit: No, it was more like shaving 20 or so hours off. They had, IIRC, 5 hours to get halfway around the world.

 

[oaken1]

No. The assumptions here insult my writer brain so much Physics ABSOLUTELY is the ONLY fall back available, in a world without actual magic. Even super hero movies need to be internally consistent. You just aren't shaving 5 or 10 hours off by fiddling with the tech. It's a stupid, gaping plot hole that miraculously made it through edits. I'm guessing it fell through the cracks between the different directors.

Edit: No, it was more like shaving 20 or so hours off. They had, IIRC, 5 hours to get halfway around the world.

Altitude? Doesnt the SR71 make that trip by elevating into orbit? Not sure on the exact time but it can go transcontinental in about 90 minutes right?
Just so ya know...aint really arguing the points... Just maybe playing devils advocate a bit.

There are tons of mistakes in JL... The worst one IMO is that after the excitement of it wore off it was actually quite dull on rewatching.... Then you have a movie like Ragnarock who many hated...and i have watched it five times and found it fun and exciting every time

 

[Covert Rain]

So much fail. They should’ve just given Zack all the time he needed with his family and waited for him to come back. Whedon’s reshoots were so bad.

By all accounts the movie was much worse before Whedon came aboard. This was not a Whedon film. He typically has a huge hand in writing, story arc that is besides the direction. There was only so much he could do but this was very much Zack's film. Very little of the overall film was Whedon. As I understand it much of his stuff was to lighten a really really dark film by Snyder. I can't imagine that movie being any darker.

I don't see how giving a guy that has probably provided the audience with maybe 40 minutes of good film out of all of his movies so far (the rest was crap) in this verse would somehow have been better had the studio given him all the time he needs.

Seriously? The studio needs to get as far away as possible from Zack Snyder. Move on. This guy was a disaster for the DCCU.

 

[GatorAZ]

By all accounts the movie was much worse before Whedon came aboard. This was not a Whedon film. He typically has a huge hand in writing, story arc that is besides the direction. There was only so much he could do but this was very much Zack's film. Very little of the overall film was Whedon. As I understand it much of his stuff was to lighten a really really dark film by Snyder. I can't imagine that movie being any darker.

I don't see how giving a guy that has probably provided the audience with maybe 40 minutes of good film out of all of his movies so far (the rest was crap) in this verse would somehow have been better had the studio given him all the time he needs.

Seriously? The studio needs to get as far away as possible from Zack Snyder. Move on. This guy was a disaster for the DCCU.

I disagree with 40 min of quality film. I loved Man of Steel but I understand why people don’t like Snyder’s style. Too many things happened over the course of his three movies that makes me think the DCU’s problems run much higher than just Zack Snyder.

 

[Chaplin]

I disagree with 40 min of quality film. I loved Man of Steel but I understand why people don’t like Snyder’s style. Too many things happened over the course of his three movies that makes me think the DCU’s problems run much higher than just Zack Snyder.

In my opinion, it’s not his style that is the problem. It’s the fact that he can’t put together a cohesive story.