Deandre Ayton facing 25 game suspension

[elindholm]

lol... you STILL won't admit you're wrong even when the words are staring you right in the face? Yes... when you tell me I said Pierce was less athletic than Doncic even tho I clearly said they were equal athletes, there is a CLEAR difference between the two.

But you didn't. You said Doncic is "just as good of an athlete" as Pierce, which means equal or better, and then went on to list specific ways in which Doncic is better, including "rebounding ability," which most people would say correlates with athleticism.

Now apparently you want to split a hair and say that, no, you weren't actually placing Doncic above Pierce, you were saying they were precisely equal. Or maybe you were putting Doncic a little above, but in ways that don't have to do specifically with athleticism. Frankly, I'm still not sure what you mean, and I doubt anyone else is either. But because I didn't immediately grasp your vague nuance, you're denting your keyboard with rage.

But I'm done here... you've already posted facts that have been proven factually wrong, then once shown those, completely projected an argument on to me that I never made and once i showed proof of that, you just start gas lighting.

Not even close. You corrected me on the Mavericks' record, and obviously I was wrong there -- maybe you missed it when I said that before. You want to make a big deal out of the Mavericks picking up a few wins last year, but I really don't think much of that. Sure, Doncic helped the Mavericks more than Ayton did the Suns, and if a team trying to win the 2019 title had to pick either Rookie Ayton or Rookie Doncic to help in their quest, they'd take Rookie Doncic. A year ago, I would have taken Rookie Ayton. So I was wrong there too. I don't have a problem with that.

congrats on once again proving my point the lengths to which people will go to because they absolutely loathe admitting they're wrong.

You don't need my help to prove that, but oh how I wish I could help you with reading comprehension.

the irony is that you don't see that you are acting just like them.

Remind me which one of us can't keep his finger off of the caps lock key?

it really won't kill you to just admit you were wrong about something. I did it and didn't melt into a puddle.

I was wrong about the Mavericks' current record and wrong about Doncic's start in the NBA, which I thought would be an embarrassment. Of course, I've already said that, but you'd rather focus on things I didn't say, like quoting Paul Pierce's lifetime statistics, as if that has anything to do with anything.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But you didn't. You said Doncic is "just as good of an athlete" as Pierce, which means equal or better, and then went on to list specific ways in which Doncic is better, including "rebounding ability," which most people would say correlates with athleticism.

actually, I said that because... wait for it... he REBOUNDS BETTER. Luka has averaged 8 rebounds per game to Pierce's 6.4.

Again, this is a FACT. And i write in CAPS because you seem to NEED them to get them into your head. If anything, the FACT that Doncic actually rebounds better speaks to him being on the same level as Pierce. I mean, do you realize that Doncic has actually rebounded better than Pierce?

I know you'll probably completely ignore this FACT, but I'll put it in there anyway. Maybe at some points, facts will matter to you.

But even there, you are PROJECTING an argument on to me that because I said Luka rebounds better that must mean I'm saying he's a better athlete... which... again... CAPS SO YOU UNDERSTAND... I NEVER SAID. Rebounding isn't all about athleticism. It's about feel for the game and fundamentals... you know the NATURAL INSTINCTS that I believe Luka has which will elevate his overall game over Pierce.

Now apparently you want to split a hair and say that, no, you weren't actually placing Doncic above Pierce, you were saying they were precisely equal.

jesus. this isn't even close to what I said,

Or maybe you were putting Doncic a little above, but in ways that don't have to do specifically with athleticism. Frankly, I'm still not sure what you mean, and I doubt anyone else is either.

are you serious? It means that I think Luka's passing skills, basketball IQ, natural instincts that have nothing to do with athleticism are above Pierce's. This isn't hard to understand nor is it some never heard of concept.

But because I didn't immediately grasp your vague nuance, you're denting your keyboard with rage.

lol... more gas lighting. "vague nuance"? I couldn't have been more clear that I thought they were of equal athleticism... and that Doncic has better natural instincts, which is why he's a better passer and probably rebounder because he knows the game better.

but you decided to completely ignore that and then decided to gaslight the conversation by saying that Pierce was less athletic.

I mean... this is pathetic dude.

Not even close. You corrected me on the Mavericks' record, and obviously I was wrong there -- maybe you missed it when I said that before. You want to make a big deal out of the Mavericks picking up a few wins last year, but I really don't think much of that.

of course you wouldn't. I mean... that would cause you to admit... GASP... you were wrong. But one player pretty much being the sole reason a team goes from 24 wins to 33 wins is considered an impact by any reasonable measure.

Sure, Doncic helped the Mavericks more than Ayton did the Suns, and if a team trying to win the 2019 title had to pick either Rookie Ayton or Rookie Doncic to help in their quest, they'd take Rookie Doncic. A year ago, I would have taken Rookie Ayton. So I was wrong there too. I don't have a problem with that.

You don't need my help to prove that, but oh how I wish I could help you with reading comprehension.

Remind me which one of us can't keep his finger off of the caps lock key?

when people lie or completely ignore previous points, I have to assume it's because they're too stupid to understand so it has to be SHOUTED at them. That obviously isn't working either.

I was wrong about the Mavericks' current record and wrong about Doncic's start in the NBA, which I thought would be an embarrassment. Of course, I've already said that, but you'd rather focus on things I didn't say, like quoting Paul Pierce's lifetime statistics, as if that has anything to do with anything.

it had to do with my belief that NBA defenses won't catch up to him (remember... YOU SAID THIS... USING CAPS BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY FORGOT) because his ability to score reminds me of Pierce, who had similar athleticism but couldn't be shut down. And he's a better passer and rebounder than Pierce. Thus, if Pierce ends up a HOFer, which he very likely will, I could easily see Luka doing the same, as opposed to you saying you would bet heavily against that.

again, this isn't that tough to understand if you could actually just remember what YOU said in a previous post, much less what I say.

 

[SirStefan32]

You know I have a lot of respect for you, Eric. You have always been one of my favorite posters here, but you are flat-out wrong about Doncic. I am going to guess you haven't really watched many Mavs games. While you are correct that he has athletic limitations, he is incredibly smart, and deceivingly strong. He overpowers smaller players, outruns the bigger players, and outsmarts all of them. He looks like a bizarre power forward version of Steve Nash, albeit not as good of a shooter. He also looks a bit like Booker, but a couple of inches taller and probably 30lb heavier. He also seems to have lost some fat and gained some muscle over the summer. I would encourage you to watch the Mavs for a dozen games or so. I have a hunch you'd change your mind on Doncic. He is not nearly as slow as people think, he is every bit as smart as advertised, and he is a hell of a lot stronger than people think.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think it stems from the biggest problem in this entire country at this point. People would seemingly rather kill themselves than admit they're wrong about ANYTHING.

This is so true!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think it depends on how one believes he's "peaked". I think he's closer to peaking statistically than Ayton is but that doesn't mean I believe he won't get much better as time goes on. Right now he puts up big numbers that don't do a whole lot, similar to Booker's numbers throughout his career. Booker's numbers this year probably won't be as good as they were last but some of them like shooting percentage and turnovers will go down, he'll be much more efficient than previously seen and I think that is what Doncic needs to work on as well. At his age though it's amazing he puts up those numbers so no one is going to complain about them but in a couple of years he'll be where Booker is now, expected to produce more impactfully than he has.

This is what I don’t get. He improved the mavs by 9 games over the previous year. And he has them at 3-1 this season. So his numbers are obviously doing a whole hell of a lot. More than bookers did in his first and second years. sometimes I think I’m living in a different world than some of you when i read your statements and compare them to what’s actually happening.

 

[Hoop Head]

This is what I don’t get. He improved the mavs by 9 games over the previous year. And he has them at 3-1 this season. So his numbers are obviously doing a whole hell of a lot. More than bookers did in his first and second years. sometimes I think I’m living in a different world than some of you when i read your statements and compare them to what’s actually happening.

How many games are we into the season? It's far too early to say his numbers are the reason the Mavs are winning when the numbers are comparable to last year when they weren't. The same could be said of Booker, whose numbers also look really close to last years. His numbers don't tell the whole story, not even close.

Yes, the Mavericks have a 3-1 record right now but until everyone has played at least a dozen games then it's far too early to start saying that statistically this who people or teams are. Averages right now don't tell you much of what to expect from a player because 1 hot game could skew things dramatically. We'll see if they're able to sustain their early season success and his numbers stay where they're at in December or January. We're not even out of October yet and the season started 2 weeks ago.

 

[elindholm]

You know I have a lot of respect for you, Eric. You have always been one of my favorite posters here, but you are flat-out wrong about Doncic.

Well obviously he's putting up great numbers right now. I'm curious to watch more of him, if I ever stop working 70-80 hours per week. But there are very few players who are ready for their Hall of Fame plaque at the start of their second year in the league, so I think it's appropriate to reserve judgment at this point. The hype machine for Doncic is out of control. He bricks in a three off the backboard and then struts around like he just beat Larry Bird in the three-point shootout. To borrow from Denny Green, I'm not quite ready to crown his ass.

I have respect for you too, Stefan, but you were awfully high on Bender, so we can all be victims of bias. I think we agree that Ayton's rookie season was something of a disappointment but that it's too soon to make any final judgments. The same is true for Doncic in the other direction.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How many games are we into the season? It's far too early to say his numbers are the reason the Mavs are winning when the numbers are comparable to last year when they weren't.

They won 9 more games adding Doncic and pretty much nothing else than they did the year previous, going from 24 wins to 33. That's a solid jump in the NBA and arguing Doncic wasn't the main reason is an exercise in futility. Unless you're going to try and sell the idea that DeAndre Jordan's rotting corpse was a big factor like you tried to do last season, but then you'd be proving my point.

As to his numbers this year being comparable to last year? 25/9/7 is a rock solid jump from 21/8/6. It's numbers going up across the board and going from 21 ppg scoring to 25 takes you from being a good scorer to an elite scorer.

The same could be said of Booker, whose numbers also look really close to last years.

No, it can't. Bookers numbers have never impacted the Suns to win more games than the previous year like Doncic did in his first year in the league.

Yes, the Mavericks have a 3-1 record right now but until everyone has played at least a dozen games then it's far too early to start saying that statistically this who people or teams are. Averages right now don't tell you much of what to expect from a player because 1 hot game could skew things dramatically. We'll see if they're able to sustain their early season success and his numbers stay where they're at in December or January. We're not even out of October yet and the season started 2 weeks ago.

except, again, you're limiting the discussion to just this season even though Doncic showed impact on the court last season that led to a solid jump in Ws for his team, while Booker, to this point, has never done that for any team he's been on for a season yet.

 

[Hoop Head]

They won 9 more games adding Doncic and pretty much nothing else than they did the year previous, going from 24 wins to 33. That's a solid jump in the NBA and arguing Doncic wasn't the main reason is an exercise in futility. Unless you're going to try and sell the idea that DeAndre Jordan's rotting corpse was a big factor like you tried to do last season, but then you'd be proving my point.

Pretty much nothing else? Then why is that when they traded away half of their team they went from a team flirting with 500 to what did they finish at, 33-49? They were 25-28 when they dealt everyone away. Barnes was their leading scorer and Jordan's "rotting corpse" averaged 11 points with 13.7 boards, which was leading the league in rebounds at that point in time, but it's futile to argue he had help. If you think that's futile then it's not worth debating further and I won't waste my time.

 

[Hoop Head]

Back to what this thread is actually about...

Duane Rankin wrote a piece about Ayton and the Suns yesterday. Here's the link and some of it...

Deandre Ayton was there for the Phoenix Suns’ head-turning win Wednesday night against the Golden State Warriors. In fact, he’s been with the Suns since beginning a 25-game suspension for violating the NBA/NBPA anti-drug policy by testing positive for a diuretic. “You watch him after our games on the plane, he’s the first person there to greet everybody,” Suns coach Monty Williams said. “Says a lot about him growing up.”

The Suns (3-2) are 2-2 without Ayton after their 121-110 victory over the Warriors in a game they led by as many as 34 points, but Williams made it clear how important the 7-footer is to the team.

"He's going to be out for a while, but he's our guy,” said Williams of Ayton, who had 18 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in the Suns' 29-point opening night win over the Sacramento Kings at Talking Stick Resort Arena.

"You talk about family and sports a lot and I'm not big on that because I think we use the term loosely, but now is a chance for us to really show that we are a family."

Ayton can practice with the team and he was putting in extra work after Thursday’s practice in a pickup game with Suns forward Cheick Diallo and the assistant coaches.

"Just keeps the gears oiled," Williams said as he watched the game.

Ayton ran the floor, barked out calls and even knocked down a 3 from the top.

I'm glad Ayton has not only been working with the team right now but that he's traveling with them also.

I'd much rather him be with the team as much as possible right now but I wonder if he's allowed to play with the NAZ Suns during his suspension. That isn't something that's important right now but towards the end of his suspension if he played a couple of games there to try and get back in game shape would help his return to the main roster. I don't believe it's something that can happen but I'll see if I can find a definitive answer on that.

 

[Superbone]

Speaking to Doncic not being a great athlete, Steve Nash and Larry Bird weren't great athletes either but they're two of the top players in NBA history.

 

[Mainstreet]

Back to what this thread is actually about...

Duane Rankin wrote a piece about Ayton and the Suns yesterday. Here's the link and some of it...




I'm glad Ayton has not only been working with the team right now but that he's traveling with them also.

I'd much rather him be with the team as much as possible right now but I wonder if he's allowed to play with the NAZ Suns during his suspension. That isn't something that's important right now but towards the end of his suspension if he played a couple of games there to try and get back in game shape would help his return to the main roster. I don't believe it's something that can happen but I'll see if I can find a definitive answer on that.

It's an interesting point. Might be something to ask some twitter friends.

My guess is the Suns want to keep him with the team and keep him part of the family.

 

[Covert Rain]

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[GatorAZ]

Luka to me is a mix between Bird, Nash, Barry, West and Maravich. (am I missing any other white guys)?

 

[Mainstreet]

Chris Mullin is a player I compared Luka too.

 

[Covert Rain]

Chris Mullin is a player I compared Luka too.

I always viewed Mullin as a tough SOB. I could be remembering wrong but I don't really get that from Luka. Do you?

 

[Mainstreet]

I always viewed Mullin as a tough SOB. I could be remembering wrong but I don't really get that from Luka. Do you?

I haven't watched Luka a lot but yes I do. The toughness will likely improve in time.

 

[Covert Rain]

I haven't watched Luka a lot but yes I do. The toughness will likely improve in time.

Maybe...for now I don't think it's a good comparison. I guess it's hard because you have to draw correlation somewhere.

 

[GatorAZ]

I always viewed Mullin as a tough SOB. I could be remembering wrong but I don't really get that from Luka. Do you?

Mullin was a complete offensive player in his day. I remember him mostly as a role player late in his career with Indy.

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe...for now I don't think it's a good comparison. I guess it's hard because you have to draw correlation somewhere.

Luka appears to be the better passer but Chris Mullin is the closest comparison I can make at the moment.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Luka appears to be the better passer but Chris Mullin is the closest comparison I can make at the moment.

Does Chris Mullin live on the second floor like Luka? (dumb joke alert)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Mullin was a complete offensive player in his day. I remember him mostly as a role player late in his career with Indy.

I see some similarities between the two but I think Luka is already quite a bit better overall than Chris. Although a teetotaler version of Mullin probably comes pretty close to Doncic's potential. Of course, by that standard a David Thompson minus the heavy coke usage probably goes into the books (and stays there) as the greatest player ever.

 

[Raindog]

Doncic has been good, no doubt, and better than I admittedly expected - I thought he would at least start out as okay, but unremarkable otherwise. But the hyperbole some of you are attaching to him is pretty absurd at this point. Any projections about his future impact are nothing more than idle speculation right now - just as they are for Ayton or anyone else from last year's draft.

Just to clarify some realities about him allegedly singlehandedly improving the Mavs last year, much of the improvement in their record came before they gutted the team in the Porzingis deal. They were 23-28 before dealing off Smith/Jordan/Matthews/Barnes, and 10-21 after the fire sale that pretty much left Doncic as the only useful player. And not coincidentally, Doncic's stats jumped quite a bit after that point - not surprisingly, since they were pretty much running the entire offense through him as the only viable option from then to the end of the season.

Additionally, the whole alleged improvement of the Mavs last season is also a matter of speculation as the 24 win season of 2017-18 has pretty much been universally recognized as a product of tanking that season to get a higher pick in that 2018 lottery - something that many teams (including the Suns) were actively doing that year, as many will recall. The Mavs had won 33 games the prior season with essentially the same core - likely indicating that their "big" 9 game improvement was more likely just a return to their normative status.

Doncic probably stands a reasonable chance of being an all-star type somewhere along the road in his career, assuming he stays the course and other factors don't interfere. Postulating him as some kind of all time great, HOFer, equaling or surpassing the games legends - at this point, is plain silly. Just as it would be with Ayton, Young or anyone else who is one season into their career at this point. For all we know, Ayton or Young (or even someone else) might end up eventually being the prize from this draft when all is said and done... or there is an even better chance that none of them end up amounting to anything all that historically memorable, as is generally what happens with the vast majority of NBA players, even when they get off to auspicious starts.

And I would still take Ayton over Doncic just based on the fact that if Ayton reaches the peak of his potential (a very BIG if, right now), he should easily surpass Doncic as an effective force. Granted, Doncic is light years ahead of Ayton on a mental scale right now, and that is a big part of achieving one's potential. But that is probably attributable to Doncic having played in a professional setting for years before he entered the league, and just the overall culture for young athletes in Europe vs. in the U.S..

 

[Mainstreet]

Does Chris Mullin live on the second floor like Luka? (dumb joke alert)

Maybe I need another cup of coffee but neither are jumpers. Am I even close?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Maybe I need another cup of coffee but neither are jumpers. Am I even close?

I'm a little embarrassed just to explain it, it was admittedly lame. (I live on the second floor/I live upstairs from you/yes I think you've seen me before)

And speaking of "another cup of coffee", it's probably my favorite song from Mike and the Mechanics.