Deandre Ayton facing 25 game suspension

[SirStefan32]

I watch Mavs regularly, and Porzingis has been mediocre this year. It's not a huge surprise, considering he was out for a year, but still, he hasn't looked impressive.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I watch Mavs regularly, and Porzingis has been mediocre this year. It's not a huge surprise, considering he was out for a year, but still, he hasn't looked impressive.

Yeah he's had some impressive moments but overall he's just not the Porzingis they were expecting. At least, not yet.

 

[Mainstreet]

I watch Mavs regularly, and Porzingis has been mediocre this year. It's not a huge surprise, considering he was out for a year, but still, he hasn't looked impressive.

If Porzingis returns to form Dallas has two stars. This is one of the reasons I want Oubre to blossom for the Suns to give them that third player to give them an edge.

 

[swagron]

Exactly!

I keep coming back to this thread expecting an update and all I get is The Luca Report.

Conversely, there is a Josh Jackson thread. I don’t think he plays for the Suns any longer. People see what they want to see.

 

[GatorAZ]

Yeah he's had some impressive moments but overall he's just not the Porzingis they were expecting. At least, not yet.

He had a crossover 3 on AD and I’m like damn 7’2” dudes aren’t supposed to do that. I think he’ll get back to form in time. He’s never been very physical though.

 

[Hoop Head]

If Porzingis returns to form Dallas has two stars. This is one of the reasons I want Oubre to blossom for the Suns to give them that third player to give them an edge.

Hey, I ask about this in the new thread "The Luka Report" check it out!

Here's a link, so if anyone wants to talk about Luka, let's move it there and leave this thread for an update on Ayton's suspension. Here's a link for the Luka thread.

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/the-luka-report.327762/

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I thought the best two players on the court were Lebron and Doncic taking nothing away from Anthony Davis who had a great game as well.

The reason I say Lebron and Doncic were because both players carried their team.

Doncic did it all for the Mavericks although he got some help from Porzingis although not like Davis helped Lebron.

The Lakers are on record that their gameplan on offense was to attack Luka. He is the weak link of their perimeter defense and thus I think it is a bit much to say that he did it all. He did everything, but guard the perimeter well.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Lakers are on record that their gameplan on offense was to attack Luka. He is the weak link of their perimeter defense and thus I think it is a bit much to say that he did it all. He did everything, but guard the perimeter well.

When I said Doncic "did it all for the Mavericks" I never meant it to be taken literally... 100%. No player does that. It's five players on a team.

I guess if one wants to point to a weakness, Doncic needs to improve defensively. Maybe he can jump higher as well.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

When I said Doncic "did it all for the Mavericks" I never meant it to be taken literally... 100%. No player does that. It's five players on a team.

I guess if one wants to point to a weakness, Doncic needs to improve defensively. Maybe he can jump higher as well.

The Lakers literally game-planned to exploit his weakness on defense. The guy is a great offensive player, but he can be an absolute liability at times on defense and quite a bit of the Lakers' offensive success came from attacking his defense. Can't say those things about either LeBron or AD. Not saying he can't be a great player because he can't play defense, but it is something you certainly should count against him at the same time.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

This article suggests that a meeting should have happened this week at some point. Article was posted on October 30th and had the following quote:

"According to a league source, Ayton’s camp and the players union expects to meet with the NBA to present its case for a reduction of the suspension by the end of the week."

https://heavy.com/sports/2019/10/deandre-ayton-suspension-diuretic-appeal-phoenix-suns/

 

[Mainstreet]

The Lakers literally game-planned to exploit his weakness on defense. The guy is a great offensive player, but he can be an absolute liability at times on defense and quite a bit of the Lakers' offensive success came from attacking his defense. Can't say those things about either LeBron or AD. Not saying he can't be a great player because he can't play defense, but it is something you certainly should count against him at the same time.

I'm not ignoring Doncic' defense it's just that he is so good everywhere else.

It would be like knocking Nash for his defense. No, I'm not comparing Doncic to Steve Nash. They are different players.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not ignoring Doncic' defense it's just that he is so good everywhere else.

It would be like knocking Nash for his defense. No, I'm not comparing Doncic to Steve Nash. They are different players.

And the Suns were always knocked for their lack of defense because of it. It can certainly be worked around, but it will require the other 4 players on the floor to be good defenders. Though teams are very good at creating the match-ups they want these day which means guys like LeBron can force Doncic to have to guard him quite a bit.

 

[Mainstreet]

And the Suns were always knocked for their lack of defense because of it. It can certainly be worked around, but it will require the other 4 players on the floor to be good defenders. Though teams are very good at creating the match-ups they want these day which means guys like LeBron can force Doncic to have to guard him quite a bit.

I think Doncic has the ability to improve his defense. He has nice measurements and is more athletic than I ever imagined. He should only get better on defense.

As a Suns fan, this is not a player I look forward to seeing the Suns play against. Suns need Ayton back sooner than late.

 

[leclerc]

So how many games until we see Ayton on the court again? 21? Too long!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I already went over this. Last year wasn't all Luka. He had a lot of help and once the team was stripped and all of his help was traded away (Barnes, Jordan, Matthews, and others) his numbers looked about the same and they quit winning almost right then.

Here's what you're completely ignoring. The 24 win Mavericks team the year before Doncic had Barnes and Matthews on it. It's not like they added those guys WITH Luka and then got better last year. The only two additions made to that woeful 24 win Mavs team before Doncic were Doncic himself and DeAndre Jordan, who's such an impactful player he's been passed around more than a joint at a Dead Concert, currently on his FOURTH team since 2018.

So, again, with the majority of the pre-Doncic Dallas team, Doncic came in and made an impact immediately helping them win more games with more or less the exact same amount of talent.

Also, the idea that "his numbers looked about the same", is completely wrong as well. Come on guys... it's not hard to just look things up. After the Mavs dumped the entire team around him, Luka's numbers JUMPED, some significantly after EVERYONE was traded away around the All-Star break.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/6014/splits?selectedTable=0&season={%22season%22:2018,%22seasonPhase%22:%22REGULAR_SEASON%22,%22groupedBySeason%22:true}

Pre-Break he averaged 20.7 ppg, 7.2 rebounds, 5.6 assists
Post All-Star Break he averaged 22.7, 9.9 rebounds and 7.1 assists.

Raindog made a really good post about the help he had last season and how much he effected their record himself.

again, all that "help" was on the 24 win team the year previous to Doncic getting there.

He was not the only person responsible for their winning 9 more games than they did the year prior.

Yeah. He was. Unless you're again going to try and again argue that Jordan's stat-padding ass which has been passed around by four teams since 2018 was really the main contributor to them getting better.

They were 25-28 when everyone was traded away.

Thank you for saving your worst point, while making my best, for last. Before all the trades to gut the team for Porzingus, the Mavs had very similar rosters, save one major difference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2018.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2019.html

2017-2018 Mavs with Matthews, Barnes, Dennis Smith but without Doncic went 24-58.

2018-2019 with with Matthews, Barnes and Dennis Smith PLUS Doncic went 25-28, winning more games than ALL of the previous season, with still 29 games left in the year. If that doesn't say major impact, I don't know what does.

Again, with very similar rosters, the Mavs went from a .292 win percentage in 2017-2018 to .471 win percentage with most things being equal between the two teams, except for the addition of Doncic. That's a HUGE difference and sign of major impact. Unless, again, you're going to try and argue that DeAndre was really the difference maker.

Without that help they went 8-21, which isn't an improvement on their prior season when you're talking about winning percentage.

Oy. Why in the world would you measure Doncic's impact coming to the 24 win Mavs team by showing how Doncic's team did once almost all of the main pieces of the 24 win team was taken away? The variables in both equation are very similar in the first comparison. What kind of sense does it possibly make to change all the variables and then make the comparison in record?

They gutted the team after all those trades. What he did after that has no bearing on the impact he made on the 24 win team because the team he was playing on after was completely different.

And oddly enough, even with a completely gutted team, where he was literally winning games singlehandedly without all of "the help" you mentioned earlier, the 8-21 team's winning percentage was .273 to the 24-58 win club's .291, which basically shows even without anyone on the team, he could still put up a record close to the team that didn't have him, but had the help y'all talked about.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i think they're going to really regret that Porzingus trade. Don't think he's going to be the #2 superstar Doncic needs and they burned a ton of assets to get him.

 

[BleedRed]

Keep checking this thread for an update on DA, and only find a bunch of LD talk. Typical.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm going to spam it again, please move all Luka talk to this thread. Or stay here and we can talk Ayton's suspension there. That would work also.


https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/the-luka-report.327762/

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it will be very difficult to ever really separate Ayton talk from Luka talk, they'll likely be linked throughout their careers. But trust me, if there were any news on the Ayton situation, this thread wouldn't have taken a turn on Doncic street.

 

[Mainstreet]

i think they're going to really regret that Porzingus trade. Don't think he's going to be the #2 superstar Doncic needs and they burned a ton of assets to get him.

I think Porzingis will be an excellent fit in Dallas if he stays healthy but nevertheless I think they almost stole him from the Knicks.

They can trade him later for a bundle if it doesn't work.

Here is the trade:

The Dallas Mavericks have acquired All-Star forward Kristaps Porzingis and three other players from the New York Knicks in exchange for a package that includes point guard Dennis Smith Jr. and two future first-round picks.

Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, who both have expiring contracts and could be buyout candidates, will also go to the Knicks. Trey Burke, who is averaging 11.8 points per game this season, is headed to the Mavericks along with Porzingis, Courtney Lee and Tim Hardaway Jr.

The Knicks will get the Mavericks' unprotected first-round pick two years after they send one to the Atlanta Hawks to complete their draft-day deal for Luka Doncic and another first-round pick that is protected two years after that, sources told Begley and Wojnarowski. Those picks could come as soon as 2021 and 2023 if Dallas does not move into the top five this year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...gree-trade-new-york-knicks-kristaps-porzingis


Add that to the 2018 draft trade for Doncic which included a first round pick, I think the Mavericks trades were brilliant as they turned draft picks into stars.

Yeah, they will be like the Lakers and Clippers filling out their roster but they received two stars in their trades.

 

[BC867]

STATISTICS

Being a numbers guy, here is something I've wondered about for a long time. It's about rebounds and assists.

You can expect that a starting Center and a starting Point Guard will average about 32 minutes per game.

The first 8 minutes to start the game.
Then returning for the final 8 minutes of the 2nd quarter.
Then the first 8 minutes of the 3rd quarter.
And returning for the final 8 minutes of the 4th quarter.

Four 8-minute segments for a night's work. Yes, and the hours of practice that it requires.

A good rebounding Center or Point Guard averages ten rebounds or assists per game. There have been
Wings and Guards who have averaged ten rebounds per game.

Which is an average of 2 1/2 per 8-minute segment. 3-2-3-2 for their 8-minute segments.

Are 2 1/2 rebounds or assists per 8-minute segment going to affect the outcome of games?

Isn't it more important for truly domineering players to be stronger than their opponent to stop a run
or be the better skilled with the game on the line?

Yes, I am referring especially to Ayton. Two or three boards (defensive + offensive) per eight minutes
of playing is not the same as being a domineering force 1-on-1.

Or, as has been phrased in the past, a monster on the boards. The question is, with his seemingly docile
nature, can Ayton ever fill that role on an advancing team? Or just be a stat stuffer in that regard?

Even with 20 points per game, will he ever be an MVP on his own team? As, for example, Baynes has been
for the five games since Ayton was disqualified from playing. And at his position.

Baynes is obviously not the long term solution at Center. I'm questioning if Ayton is. He is going to need a
real check-up-from-the-neck-up--in a few areas--before we can count on him leading us to a championship.

I repeat. For the sake of discussion, I'm questioning if Ayton can. Granted, it would be a first for the Suns.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So, does anyone want to speculate on the argument Ayton is going to make for getting his suspension reduced?

1. Got the pills mixed up. These look like those.
2. It was an unlisted ingredient in something I took.
3. My posse thought it would be a good joke to give this to me without my knowledge, not knowing it was banned.
4. Someone maliciously dosed me.
5. My pot was supposed to a new "undetectable" version. I did not know it was laced with a diuretic to make it undetectable. Like that one would fly.

It seems to me he would have to

1. Know exactly how he ingested the diuretic.
2. Be able to prove that was how he did it.
3. Be able to prove that it was unreasonable for him to suspect that he was taking a banned substance.

I got no more. For the lawyers on this board, what would you want to have to try to make the argument for leniency?

 

[Mainstreet]

So, does anyone want to speculate on the argument Ayton is going to make for getting his suspension reduced?

1. Got the pills mixed up. These look like those.
2. It was an unlisted ingredient in something I took.
3. My posse thought it would be a good joke to give this to me without my knowledge, not knowing it was banned.
4. Someone maliciously dosed me.
5. My pot was supposed to a new "undetectable" version. I did not know it was laced with a diuretic to make it undetectable. Like that one would fly.

It seems to me he would have to

1. Know exactly how he ingested the diuretic.
2. Be able to prove that was how he did it.
3. Be able to prove that it was unreasonable for him to suspect that he was taking a banned substance.

I got no more. For the lawyers on this board, what would you want to have to try to make the argument for leniency?

I think #2 is the best option of those presented. Now what is that item and is it reasonable to take it without knowing the ingredients. A reasonable excuse might be a doctor prescribed it but he didn't know what was in it.

 

[Hoop Head]

So, does anyone want to speculate on the argument Ayton is going to make for getting his suspension reduced?

1. Got the pills mixed up. These look like those.
2. It was an unlisted ingredient in something I took.
3. My posse thought it would be a good joke to give this to me without my knowledge, not knowing it was banned.
4. Someone maliciously dosed me.
5. My pot was supposed to a new "undetectable" version. I did not know it was laced with a diuretic to make it undetectable. Like that one would fly.

It seems to me he would have to

1. Know exactly how he ingested the diuretic.
2. Be able to prove that was how he did it.
3. Be able to prove that it was unreasonable for him to suspect that he was taking a banned substance.

I got no more. For the lawyers on this board, what would you want to have to try to make the argument for leniency?

You didn't list it here but I think one that might work for an appeal that I've heard NFL players and MMA fighters use before, "My personal trainer gave me X supplement and was unaware it contained Y" or alternatively that they were unaware that Y was a banned substance.

Of course that takes someone falling on a sword for him and risking their professional livelihood but in today's drug testing sports environment. I don't think it would be too hard to believe a personal trainer, dietician, strength coach, etc didn't keep up with everything being added and taken off of banned substance lists.

I don't know how the NBA's banned substance list looks but I doubt it's as large as it is in the MMA world because they comply with USADA handling their testing and stuff is added and removed somewhat regularly.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You didn't list it here but I think one that might work for an appeal that I've heard NFL players and MMA fighters use before, "My personal trainer gave me X supplement and was unaware it contained Y" or alternatively that they were unaware that Y was a banned substance.

Of course that takes someone falling on a sword for him and risking their professional livelihood but in today's drug testing sports environment. I don't think it would be too hard to believe a personal trainer, dietician, strength coach, etc didn't keep up with everything being added and taken off of banned substance lists.

I don't know how the NBA's banned substance list looks but I doubt it's as large as it is in the MMA world because they comply with USADA handling their testing and stuff is added and removed somewhat regularly.

I am not sure that one would fly. Anyone could purposefully cheat and claim it. I think the NBA would just say "You need to employ better people."

There might be one more. Basically claim that what he took was allowable on a previous list but banned on a newer one and that the dr, trainer etc, got an old list somehow.

Grasping here.