Deciding who the best player ever is

[Hoop Head]

MJ had 6 trips, 5 of them the Bulls won 4-2 and once 4-1

24-11

LeBron has been to he finals 10 times.

He's been swept twice 0-4, lost 4-1 twice, lost 4-2 twice.
Won 4-3 twice, 4-2 once, and 4-1 once.

That's 20-33 in the finals overall.

Just single game winning percentage in the finals, its no contest comparing the two. LeBron has been 10 times but he still doesn't equal the total number of wins that MJ accumulate in 6 trips.

 

[jf-08]

MJ had 6 trips, 5 of them the Bulls won 4-2 and once 4-1
24-11

LeBron has been to he finals 10 times.

He's been swept twice 0-4, lost 4-1 twice, lost 4-2 twice.
Won 4-3 twice, 4-2 once, and 4-1 once.

That's 20-33 in the finals overall.

Just single game winning percentage in the finals, its no contest comparing the two. LeBron has been 10 times but he still doesn't equal the total number of wins that MJ accumulate in 6 trips.

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[BigRedRage]

Jordan. Thread over.

 

[BigRedRage]

MJ had 6 trips, 5 of them the Bulls won 4-2 and once 4-1

24-11

LeBron has been to he finals 10 times.

He's been swept twice 0-4, lost 4-1 twice, lost 4-2 twice.
Won 4-3 twice, 4-2 once, and 4-1 once.

That's 20-33 in the finals overall.

Just single game winning percentage in the finals, its no contest comparing the two. LeBron has been 10 times but he still doesn't equal the total number of wins that MJ accumulate in 6 trips.

Yep. Lebron's finals trips are a byproduct of the new player controlled NBA full of super teams. Part of why the suns are so exciting right now is we are no super team. Chris Paul made a huge difference but the superstar core of this team was drafted by this team.

 

[Proximo]

I know this is changing subjects but with the Suns doing so well we have a day off until hopefully the next Nuggets Thrashing.. Looking at the Suns possibly having a chance to win a championship made me think of past championships and the arguments for the best player and teams ever.

One thing I don't understand when these arguments are made is why the percentage of times a player won in the finals is so important instead of how many times they made it to the finals. Isn't it more important to make the finals as many times as possible even if you lose, then lose more times in earlier rounds but are perfect in the Finals?

It also reminds me of the same thing in the NFL, some how Montana was still often considered greater than Brady by many until Brady racked up more NFL championships when they were equal but Brady had a lost a few championships I would say most argued he was worse. The ones Brady went to and lost seemed much worse than the years Montana didn't make it to the superbowl at all.

It is almost forgotten how many times Jordan didn't make it to the finals and somehow his legacy seems like it would be more tarnished if he had made it more times to the finals and lost.

I would probably lean towards James being the best player to ever play the game. He made it to more finals than Jordan and I feel overall with a lesser cast. I don't know if Jordan would have made it to as many Finals as James if given the same supporting cast James had. If James had Scotty Pippen and some of the other players Jordan had I think he would have been better off, even with the Heat cast which was already a little older when he got there. I don't know if Jordan would have won the year the Cavaliers won it with James. I think Anthony Davis would be as important as a Pippen if Davis didn't get hurt and James was the same age as Jordan was when he was still winning championships but obviously that isn't the case.

I also think James most likely would have flourished in Jordan's area where more physical play was allowed. James is so big and strong I think he would have adapted.

Anyways just my thoughts.

Ok, I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you did not watch many Jordan games back in the day.

I did, and I have watched a bunch of Lebron games.

It's not even close - Jordan was far better.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Jordan. Thread over.

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

 

[Hoop Head]

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

Wilt wasn't much of a shooter, see his FT% for evidence of that. He has a huge advantage because of his height and towering over his competition. He was great, but for all his gifts how many times did he lead his team to titles? Sure, you can say Russell had better teammates back then but I think to call someone the GOAT they have to be dominant when the lights are brightest and with the most on the line, and that's in the finals.

 

[BigRedRage]

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

If wilt was in the Jordan era, I do not believe you would think this. While Wilt is legend, he also was simply FAR more athletic than most of the league. He was a relic of the future and where the NBA was going to go IMO.

Then again, I'm 38 so I dont know what I'm talking about. I'll still take Jordan.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

I just have a hard time taking Wilt’s numbers seriously. He put up his biggest numbers early in his career when the talent wasn’t all that deep. In the early 60s the style of play was also non stop running and it was normal for your best players to play the entire game. His numbers are inflated due to these things.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If wilt was in the Jordan era, I do not believe you would think this. While Wilt is legend, he also was simply FAR more athletic than most of the league. He was a relic of the future and where the NBA was going to go IMO.

Then again, I'm 38 so I dont know what I'm talking about. I'll still take Jordan.

He was bigger, he was stronger, he was more athletic and he was simply the most dominant player this game has ever seen. And I've never heard any player that played against him that didn't call him the greatest player ever. His greatest weakness is that he was so much better than his peers that he seldom worked on his game. They still tell stories about him destroying all the LA players from UCLA and the Lakers many years after he retired (Magic, Kareem etc.).

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just have a hard time taking Wilt’s numbers seriously. He put up his biggest numbers early in his career when the talent wasn’t all that deep. In the early 60s the style of play was also non stop running and it was normal for your best players to play the entire game. His numbers are inflated due to these things.

Everything you're saying here would be true of all the other players that played at that time. So do you discount Elgin, Jerry, Oscar, Russell and all the other greats? Anyway, I've never seen a player in any era that so physically outclassed every one else on the court. The closest would have been Shaq before he landed in LA and he was a pale, pale, pale shadow of the physical specimen that was Wilt.

Despite what the numbers show, Wilt didn't lose a thing in his career. He was so far above every one else that he didn't just go into cruise mode at times like some do, he virtually ignored the game. Didn't practice, got most of his exercise in the bedroom and enjoyed life away from the court.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wilt wasn't much of a shooter, see his FT% for evidence of that. He has a huge advantage because of his height and towering over his competition. He was great, but for all his gifts how many times did he lead his team to titles? Sure, you can say Russell had better teammates back then but I think to call someone the GOAT they have to be dominant when the lights are brightest and with the most on the line, and that's in the finals.

Robert Horry has 7 rings but Shaq and Lebron only have 4. Dickey Simpkins has 3. Sasha Whatshisname has a couple. Luc Longley has 3. John Salley has 4. Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, Kurt Rambis, Will Perdue all have 4 or 5. Sam Jones has 10 championships. Heinsohn, Havlicek, KC Jones and Satch Sanders have 7 each. Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, John Stockton, Karl Malone, James Harden, Bob Lanier, Dave Bing, Nate Thurmond, George Gervin, Alex English, Pete Maravich and a lot of other greats never won an NBA championship.

 

[Sunburn]

Haven't seen the full thing, but I'm pretty sure that is what this clip is from.

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Edit: Tracked down what this is from. It was an 8 episode mini series about LeBron on ESPN+ where he is talking about essentially the different chapters of his life/basketball career.

Cringey look imo. Strange. When I watch clips of Ali proclaiming himself the greatest, I'm impressed with his unwavering confidence in himself. Lebron just appears narcissistic and out of touch to me here.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Wilt wasn't much of a shooter, see his FT% for evidence of that. He has a huge advantage because of his height and towering over his competition. He was great, but for all his gifts how many times did he lead his team to titles? Sure, you can say Russell had better teammates back then but I think to call someone the GOAT they have to be dominant when the lights are brightest and with the most on the line, and that's in the finals.

If you look at his stats I’m prettt sure wilt did dominate the finals. His team couldn’t keep up.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

OH man. I so much agree with this. MJ was great, and was so marketable. I do believe if young Wilt were drafted today, he would still dominate the league.

Odd fact. In a HS game Wilt scored 98 points in 28 minutes, including 15 points in 1 minute.

 

[GatorAZ]

Wilt played against roofers and plumbers so it’s hard to say.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wilt played against roofers and plumbers so it’s hard to say.

Watch this and then talk about roofers and plumbers.

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Things many people do not know about Wilt.

Ran a 4.6 40 yard dash (some say as low as 4.4)
State shot put champion in high school.
Ran the 100 competitively at 10.9 seconds.
Bench pressed 500 pounds.
45 inch vertical jump
Ran the 440 in 49 seconds.
Won the Big 8 high jump championship 3 straight years.
Played 48.5 minutes per game in the 1961-62 season.
Averaged 45.9 minutes a game for his career (durability?)
Averaged 30 points and 23 rebounds FOR HIS CAREER.
Averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds in 1960-61.
Averaged 8.6 assists per game in 1968-9
Had a 55 rebound game.
Had a 41 rebound game in the playoffs.
Had a 78 point and 43 rebound game against the Lakers.

Might be flat out the best athlete ever in recorded history.

 

[Proximo]

Best player? Sorry but that's Wilt and it's not close. Best career?That could bring a legitimate argument. I'd go with Jordan followed by Lebron and Kareem with the next tier of Bird, Russell, Oscar and Tim Duncan.

It's definetley not wilt. Most people of the era say Russel was better than Wilt.

Regardless, in their era competition was sorry in comparison to Jordan or Lebron's era.

Heck even Ayton could of averaged 50 and 20 back then I would bet.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's definetley not wilt. Most people of the era say Russel was better than Wilt.

Regardless, in their era competition was sorry in comparison to Jordan or Lebron's era.

Heck even Ayton could of averaged 50 and 20 back then I would bet.

I just don't think that's true. In the 60's I don't recall anybody, even the old timers (at the time), that put anyone above Wilt. There were some angry old white men that would say it ended and began with George Mikan or Jerry West but you had to be a diehard Celtics fan to even consider putting Bill Russell in the conversation. It was Wilt unless you were an Elgin or Oscar fan.

Later on, in the ESPN era, the media started making it all about rings which makes little sense in a true team sport but that was part of ESPN's marketing. Russell had the rings but he played with a bunch of guys that are also in the HOF with him.

Granted, many of those so called all time greats would have never come close to the Hall if they hadn't played with Russell but I think the same could be said about who they played for. Red owned basketball at that time, they invested and committed to scouting, preparation and analysis in a way that no other BB team did back then. Wilt outplayed everyone, his teams didn't always keep pace. Bill was a big part of that difference but so was Auerbach.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It's definetley not wilt. Most people of the era say Russel was better than Wilt.

Regardless, in their era competition was sorry in comparison to Jordan or Lebron's era.

Heck even Ayton could of averaged 50 and 20 back then I would bet.

Not true. Most people of the era said it was Wilt. Russell just had better teams.

 

[gimpy]

I guess you really need an objective definition. Everything is really subjective now. It's really difficult to compare different era players, especially now when it's an offense driven league.

There is no such thing anymore as a traveling violation or a palming the ball violation. They won't let you play defense anymore. If these rules were enforced like they were originally meant to be, it would be a totally different game. I guess that is why I don't watch much bball anymore.

But, at the same time I am simply amazed at the accuracy of 3 point shooting.
.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You are the gm. You have all the players who have ever played NBA ball healthy and standing against the wall like pickup games in elementary school.

Who is your first pick?

For me, its Wilt, without a doubt.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not true. Most people of the era said it was Wilt. Russell just had better teams.

For today's day fans I think it might be easier to compare Wilt Chamberlain to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar even though there is an age disparity.

I don't think there is much doubt, Chamberlain was the more physically dominant player.

Kareem seemed to start the transition to the modern day center.

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[GatorAZ]

Kareem’s early 20’s/peak were still in the niche league years of the NBA but he was still dominant (not as much) once the ABA guys came over and the drafts of the late 70’s/early 80’s really pumped the league full of true talent. Granted a lot of that talent was on his team. Kareem was putting up massive numbers for LA but not winning much before Magic got there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kareem’s early 20’s/peak were still in the niche league years of the NBA but he was still dominant (not as much) once the ABA guys came over and the drafts of the late 70’s/early 80’s really pumped the league full of true talent. Granted a lot of that talent was on his team. Kareem was putting up massive numbers for LA but not winning much before Magic got there.

The ABA lasted from 1967 to 1976. It siphoned off some talent from the NBA, but you also have to remember that the NBA had many fewer teams back in those days. Talent was concentrated on rosters. There were incredibly talented players in the NBA from the early 1960's on.

I will rest my case with this one, since I am not going to change anyone's mind anyway. Wilt is the GOAT, all other discussions are about second place.

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