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Duckjake

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We need to force offenses to be exotic and change stuff up. Not the other way arround. We need to be in control and I still haven't seen that for a long time. I always see a Cards defense that is adjusting to the opponent and try to slow them down but never stop them and dominate. It's very rare that we allow 10 points and less. A great defensive game for the Cards at the moment is letting 25 points in and making a good play at the end.... That's not domination..... It's escape.....


As I have pointed out before the defense was good enough last season to let the Cards get sizeable leads, and not 35-21 leads either but 31-10, 21-0... in all but two of their 11 wins last season. Then for some reason they would allow the opponents back into the game. I think that had as much to do with attitude as it did personnel or scheme because it was something the defense did under Clancy and then again with Davis.

Porter brings a better attitude and gives Dockett a cohort so to speak in driving the defense to play smart and physical for all four quarters not just the first two. Some of the players might not be as talented but I'm thinking they're going to be more relentless.
 

Early

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As I have pointed out before the defense was good enough last season to let the Cards get sizeable leads, and not 35-21 leads either but 31-10, 21-0... in all but two of their 11 wins last season. Then for some reason they would allow the opponents back into the game. I think that had as much to do with attitude as it did personnel or scheme because it was something the defense did under Clancy and then again with Davis.

Porter brings a better attitude and gives Dockett a cohort so to speak in driving the defense to play smart and physical for all four quarters not just the first two. Some of the players might not be as talented but I'm thinking they're going to be more relentless.

It was more our offense being completely on fire and taking the lead, defense letting them in the game later on. That's a trend in some, if not most, games that you mention.

Defense was horrible last year, i'm not even sure that is strong enough word. It was not a defense that was worthy of being in the payoffs, and is arguably the worst playoff defense of all time.

Cardinals offense under control of Warner is the reason for the recent succes, outscoring the opponent that was putting a show on our defense. The talent on defense is amazing, there is no doubt about that, and there are lots of individual efforts all over the season. With so much talent, that is given. However, together as a unit, they are completely inconsistent and lack a functional identity. The nature of the talent does not suit the scheme, at least in my opinion
 
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Duckjake

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It was more our offense being completely on fire and taking the lead, defense letting them in the game later on. That's a trend in some, if not most, games that you mention.

Defense was horrible last year, i'm not even sure that is strong enough word. It was not a defense that was worthy of being in the payoffs, and is arguably the worst playoff defense of all time.

Cardinals offense under control of Warner is the reason for the recent succes, outscoring the opponent that was putting a show on our defense. The talent on defense is amazing, there is no doubt about that, and there are lots of individual efforts all over the season. With so much talent, that is given. However, together as a unit, they are completely inconsistent and lack a functional identity. The nature of the talent does not suit the scheme, at least in my opinion

I would agree except if that were the case the leads would have been more along the lines of 21-17 or 31-21 at halftime. They weren't playing make it take it last season. Our defense had to stop the opponents' offense so that our red hot offense could get the ball back to score.

As an example: Against the Jags the Cards led 24-3 at the half. Jacksonville had 6 possessions in the first half. Those six resulted in 3 points for them and 7 points for us.
 
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Early

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I would agree except if that were the case the leads would have been more along the lines of 21-17 or 31-21 at halftime. They weren't playing make it take it last season. Our defense had to stop the opponents' offense so that our red hot offense could get the ball back to score.

I don't agree with that. But even if it is correct, does it make a difference? The defense needs to play for 4 quarters and not 1. I'm sure that the Lions defense also had 1 good quarter of football per game, if you pick out individual segments and make a highlight movie about it. Good defenses play well the entire game. It's like saying the Browns would win the SB if they played as well as the last games. They didn't.

The defense was really bad, there are no excuses, and the talent was there on key positions: D-Line, #1 Corner. Everything else can be covered by zones, scheming, film study etc. The fundamentals were not there at times, bad tackling and lack of intensity as well.

At short moments we found all of that, but short moments are not defining a defense and a season.
 

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I think the defense will have a nastier attitude and SHOULD get more pressure on the QB, but they're going to have to because I fear that CB spot opposite DRC is going to get abused.

Against the run... well... our ILB scare the piss out of me.

Shocker... I'm going in expecting the worst but being pleasantly surprised. The idea of starting Paris Lennon/Someone Off The Street, i.e. Beisel or Topafagu is terrifying to me.
 

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I think the defense will have a nastier attitude and SHOULD get more pressure on the QB, but they're going to have to because I fear that CB spot opposite DRC is going to get abused.

Against the run... well... our ILB scare the piss out of me.

Shocker... I'm going in expecting the worst but being pleasantly surprised. The idea of starting Paris Lennon/Someone Off The Street, i.e. Beisel or Topafagu is terrifying to me.

I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by Toler. The guy was going up against #11 as well as #15 and #80 and really holding his own. He has loads of talent and good size. Not to mention when he was on the field last yea he player pretty well.
 
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A great defensive game for the Cards at the moment is letting 25 points in and making a good play at the end.... That's not domination..... It's escape.....
Really? Then explain the the 20.3 points per game allowed by the Cardinals last season.

Quite simply the defense in 2009 was not as terrible as you are making it out to be.

There are some good points made in your diatribe (post #25), too bad it's overwhelmed by the contradictions... :cool:
 

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I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by Toler. The guy was going up against #11 as well as #15 and #80 and really holding his own. He has loads of talent and good size. Not to mention when he was on the field last yea he player pretty well.

I hope this is the case but as to last year, he wasn't on the field much but he was on the field a lot in the GB last game of the season and got killed and then made a couple plays in a Saints game where Drew Brees threw the ball at will. i'm definitely in a wait and see mode on him and behind him, there's NOTHING. That's what scares me most.
 

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I hope this is the case but as to last year, he wasn't on the field much but he was on the field a lot in the GB last game of the season and got killed and then made a couple plays in a Saints game where Drew Brees threw the ball at will. i'm definitely in a wait and see mode on him and behind him, there's NOTHING. That's what scares me most.

I know games are different. But watching him at camp going up against Fitz and really holding his own gives you a lot of confidence. Fitz doesnt give these CB's anything and goes all out on every play. He just always seems to be in the right position and making plays. he seems to have that gift of "ball skills" unlike many CB's we have seen here over the years.
 

Cheesebeef

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I know games are different. But watching him at camp going up against Fitz and really holding his own gives you a lot of confidence. Fitz doesnt give these CB's anything and goes all out on every play. He just always seems to be in the right position and making plays. he seems to have that gift of "ball skills" unlike many CB's we have seen here over the years.

like I said, I hope you're right. If we have a shut-down corner and a solid corner opposite him, with our pass-rush, we should be able to KILL QBs... or force a lot of turnovers which would be a god-send for our offense. But you know me. I'm a show me guy before I buy all in.
 
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Duckjake

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I don't agree with that. But even if it is correct, does it make a difference? The defense needs to play for 4 quarters and not 1. I'm sure that the Lions defense also had 1 good quarter of football per game, if you pick out individual segments and make a highlight movie about it. Good defenses play well the entire game. It's like saying the Browns would win the SB if they played as well as the last games. They didn't.

The defense was really bad, there are no excuses, and the talent was there on key positions: D-Line, #1 Corner. Everything else can be covered by zones, scheming, film study etc. The fundamentals were not there at times, bad tackling and lack of intensity as well.

At short moments we found all of that, but short moments are not defining a defense and a season.

It wasn't just one segment. It was the first half of almost every win. Find me the Lions games where Detroit was ahead 24-3 or 21-0 or 31-7 or 17-0 (twice) or 17-3 at halftime.

And the entire point of making this thread is that Porter helps with a new attitude where the Cards will play for the entire game instead of just the first two quarters.
 

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I'm a show me guy before I buy all in.

I'm with ya cheese. A big hole in the middle of the D at ILB, an unknown at RCB & CB depth that is questionable at best. The secondary as a whole had many very mediocre games against the pass during the year & was torched for 2 playoff games...show me you're better defense!!!
 
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Duckjake

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I hope this is the case but as to last year, he wasn't on the field much but he was on the field a lot in the GB last game of the season and got killed and then made a couple plays in a Saints game where Drew Brees threw the ball at will. i'm definitely in a wait and see mode on him and behind him, there's NOTHING. That's what scares me most.

Well I'm hoping Trumaine McBride turns out to be a decent player. That would keep Michael Adams off the field at least as well as give us decent depth at Corner.

McBride was injured last season and if I'm not mistaken stuck behind a couple of fairly good Corners in Chicago. Haven't seen him play though so this hope is based mostly on him running #1 for a while in camp. Also hope McBride has recovered enough from his injury to be able to play Saturday so we can see if he has anything.

Cardinals CB Greg Toler sustained an undisclosed injury in practice Tuesday and did not return. Toler is locked in a battle with Trumaine McBride for the starter's role opposite Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. McBride has recently returned from missing time with a groin injury.


Read more: http://www.fantasysp.com/nfl_player_news/Trumaine_McBride/#ixzz0wLvPWU00
 

Early

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It wasn't just one segment. It was the first half of almost every win. Find me the Lions games where Detroit was ahead 24-3 or 21-0 or 31-7 or 17-0 (twice) or 17-3 at halftime.

And the entire point of making this thread is that Porter helps with a new attitude where the Cards will play for the entire game instead of just the first two quarters.

I can't, because the Lions don't have Kurt Warner. They don't have the ability to take on big leads early.

Just looked it up on NFL.com, I don't pretend that i watch Lions games, I use all my time on the Cards. 10-7 for Lions after first half against the Vikes. Ended up losing 27-13....13-0 for Lions after first half against Washington...2-10 against the Rams...3-10 against the Vikes.....3-6 against SF. If you add only the 4th and 1st quarter against the Steelers, Lions are in the lead 13-7..That's half of the game! Obviously, their defense was able to play solid/well for some segments, but not entire games. Not good enough for me. Same can be said about the Cards.

I guess picking up segments of solid defensive play is meaningless. You could do that for any defense in NFL and make them look like studs. Lions defense was statistically arguably the worst in NFL. However, the entire picture is the important stat. 4 quarters instead of 2. Counts for Lions as much as for Cards and any other bad defense. In fact, losing big in second half is a very strong indication that the defensive coordinator is outschemed and can't adjust to the changes made by the offense during games. That's the worst conclusion. That happens often and there is a reason for it. You would wish that it was other way arround; namely giving some points up early, then adjusting better than the offense and outscheming/outplaying completely in the end. No, that's not the case.

I have looked at every play closely, regular season as well as postseason, even multiple times - saying that the defense was good and will be better can't be backed from anything on the tapes IMO. They were horrible and defenitely the worst performance of any playoff defense. Ever. If you can see anything postive in that, please, let me know. Speaking of talent, we have gone a step in wrong direction or taken a status quo, at best. If we keep the same philisophy and playcalling, there is nothing that indicates the defense will be playing well this year. Under Clancy, at least we had two dominant defensive performances in playoffs. You have to respect that. Under Davis, in playoffs, we make history in playing bad defense.

It will be up to the offense to win games (again) , unless some noticable change in playcalling/philosophy is made. Perhaps, if our rungame turns out to be top 5 ( i don't believe that, but could happen since we won't be able to pass the ball IMO) , defense could get plenty of help. Could burn out time on the clock and keep them fresh. That's the best case scenario that can help them look better. More man coverage and running the ball more is the best help with a below average QB as Leinart.

Really? Then explain the the 20.3 points per game allowed by the Cardinals last season.

Quite simply the defense in 2009 was not as terrible as you are making it out to be.

There are some good points made in your diatribe (post #25), too bad it's overwhelmed by the contradictions... :cool:

I'm not sure we are on the same page. I was refering to a hypothetical number rather than season average. The best defensive games that we make at the moment is letting many points in and, if lucky, make a play or two in the end. That's the best this defense can offer right now. It is not able to play well for 4 quarters and not allow more than 10 points. There is no contradiction in that, that's just the way it is.

In two games, when it matters the most, and thus when the argument is most valid, 90 points were scored against the Cards.

And yes, the defense was terrible last year considering we had the talent on key positions: top 3 D-Line and DRC.
 

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In 2009 – we scored 52 fewer points than ’08 – and we allowed 101 less.

“O” 2008: 427 – 2009: 375

“D” 2008: 426 – 2009: 325

Arguably, we wouldn’t have been 10-6 without the improvement on “D”

2009: 10 wins
Jacksonville scored 18 points.
Houston scored 21 points.
Seattle scored 3 points.
New York Giants scored 17 points.
Chicago scored 21 points.
Seattle scored 20 points.
St. Louis scored 13 points.
Minnesota scored 17 points.
Detroit scored 24 points.
St. Louis scored 10 points.

Some of our losses
Tennessee scored 20 points.
San Francisco scored 20 points.
San Francisco scored 24 points with seven turnovers.

There's 13 games where 04 to 25 points would produce a 13 and 3 record.

While losing Dansby is significant, I’m of the view - until proven wrong - that with Darnell in his prime; Calais’ emergence; Joey P’s rushing; Watson’s return to health; DRC and Wilson at Pro Bowl level – and contributions from the rest of the “D” roster… this defence will be as good, if not better, than last season.

If we can approximate the Offensive output of 2009 (not “08) we will be in good shape.
 

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Sorry, just had to drop in really quick to say that CC will have a Pro Bowl, 10+ sack season. With our front line and the additions we've made at LB...whew, I have a hard time figuring out how anybody's even going to get the ball in the air against us.

Let's hear it for your 12-4 at a minimum, 3x NFC West Champion, Super Bowl bound Arizona Cardinals! The journey begins in two days...
 
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Duckjake

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1st quarter against the Steelers,

What? The First Quarter?!?! That just shows how much you are reaching.

The Lions had 3 games last year where they held their opponents under TEN Points in the first half. THREE.

They had SIX games where their opponent had 20+ points in the first half. The Cards had 6 games where their opponents scored THREE points or less in the first half. And you say our defense was as bad in the first half of games as Detroit's.?!?!?!?

How the heck does Kurt Warner lead his team to TDs if the other team has the football?????
 
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slanidrac16

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I think Early and Duckjake are both right on there own point of view.

DJ is right that the D was better statistically 09 then it was 08, especially when considering the bottom line....points allowed.

Early is right when pointing out that our defense was sporadic at best. What sticks out the most is the 2 games of the playoffs.

I can't say that too many people would disagree with the fact that our fans felt a whole lot better if the offense was on the field and needed a score to win rather than having the defense on the field needing a stop to win.

I'll say this. I think with the emergence of Campbell as an impact player along with adequate support from our ILB, this defense will be improved without crazy scheming.
 
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Duckjake

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I can't say that too many people would disagree with the fact that our fans felt a whole lot better if the offense was on the field and needed a score to win rather than having the defense on the field needing a stop to win.

Sadly you could say that about almost every Cardinal team going back to around 1995.
 

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Everything being talked about is either based on camp-observations or what we see "on paper."

A lot can happen between (a) the first week of training camp and what the season-previews say and (b) the regular season (in fact, a lot can happen between the start of the season, midway thru the season and then end).

That makes me very reluctant to make any sweeping "Super Bowl" or doom or gloom predictions.

With the above caveats, here's how I feel and what I think:

1. The undressing of our defense in the playoffs has tended to obliterate perceptions of how well, on occasion, the team played during the regular season.

2. I disagree with Early (that our defense was horrible last year). I do think it was inconsistent - not only from game-to-game but, more importantly quarter-to-quarter within a game.

3. The defense isn't some giant monolith - it's comprised of several different components; any which can represent the hole in the dam (i.e. all it takes is one leak to bring down an otherwise excellent structure).

4. In my opinion, we were "leaky" at CB (opposite DRC), in deep patrol at FS and occasionally in the middle of our front 7 (at NT and/or one both of the ILB's). Opposing teams exploited this and, in turn, it sometimes made the entire defense look bad.

5. On paper, I believe our defense is deeper, our young guys have one year more experience, some of our key players during the off-season reshaped their bodies (& in some cases have adopted "take no prisoner" attitudes) and the trade-offs of Porter & Rhodes (& evidently Lenon and possibly Baggs and a returning C Brown) for Dansby, Rolle, Chike and B-Train change the configuration of our defense so that it will be smarter and a bit faster (though perhaps a little less explosive in the turnover dept.).

6. One thing that "paper" can't tell you is how well each unit plays together. We won't know this until we actually see these guys play the game.

7. I like the stepped-up camp intensity a lot (That's part of any good defense's job description). But I agree that we'll have to wait and see whether the intensity extends to real games.

8. Injuries can destroy the best-laid plans (sound of fingers crossing).

All of which makes me excited about what could be. But, truth be told, we won't know until we know.
 
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Duckjake

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In my opinion, we were "leaky" at CB (opposite DRC), in deep patrol at FS and occasionally in the middle of our front 7 (at NT and/or one both of the ILB's). Opposing teams exploited this and, in turn, it sometimes made the entire defense look bad.

I'd substitute inconsistent for "leaky" to be more clear. Even our two top rated Defensive Backs, DRC and Wilson were beaten badly several times (all you need do is watch some replays from '09) but also turned in great plays-11 interceptions and 4 Forced Fumbles. Our deep patrol at FS was the same way. Rolle had 4 interceptions.

On the other hand the NT position was a weak spot almost all season and that is what made our ILB crew look below par as teams could block our ILBs with not only a FB but also a Center or Guard.
 

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5. On paper, I believe our defense is deeper, our young guys have one year more experience, some of our key players during the off-season reshaped their bodies (& in some cases have adopted "take no prisoner" attitudes) and the trade-offs of Porter & Rhodes (& evidently Lenon and possibly Baggs and a returning C Brown) for Dansby, Rolle, Chike and B-Train change the configuration of our defense so that it will be smarter and a bit faster (though perhaps a little less explosive in the turnover dept.).

If smarter and faster, can't see how it could be less explosive in the turnover department.
 
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