Definitive answer from Larry Coon

[elindholm]

We've debated endlessly on this board whether it is possible to combine a trade exception with a player in order to bring over a larger-salaried player. Some of us thought it was possbile as long as the new player fit under the salaries, not requiring the 25% fudge factor. Others thought maybe it wasn't possible even then.

I e-mailed Larry Coon a couple of weeks ago and he finally responded. My questions are in blue, his answers are in red.

Can a $3 million trade exception be combined with a $1 million player to bring in a $4 million player? This would not violate the "only one exception per trade" rule.

You can't combine two trade exceptions like that. There's no such thing as an "only one exception per trade" rule, as it's common to use multiple exceptions in the same trade -- for example, a team could receive two players, one with the assigned player exception, the other with the minimum salary exception. What can't be done is using two exceptions on one player, and in your example, two exceptions (two distinct trade exceptions) are being used.

However, some of us are confused about the rule stating that a non-simultaneous trade can involve only one player being moved out. If the trade that originally created the (so-called) trade exception moved out one player (say, the Suns' Joe Johnson), then wouldn't moving out a second player (the $1 million guy, say, the Suns' Leandro Barbosa) to "complete" the trade violate the condition?

No -- the key is "aggregation," which is the term the league uses to denote combining the salaries of multiple players at the same time for trade purposes. A trade that involves aggregation cannot give rise to a non-simultaneous trade.

So basically he's saying that, no, you can't combine a trade exception with a player in order to bring over a larger salary, but the reasons aren't exactly as we understood them.

Unfortunately this means we can forget about using the Johnson exception to bring a player with a large-ish salary in the middle of the year. Whatever is left of the exception ($3.5 million or so, I think) is it. The Suns can combine players in a trade according the usual fudge-factor rules, but that's a different situation.

 

[JCSunsfan]

His answer is definitive enough, but his reasoning is difficult to understand.

Is he saying that, in your example:

1 million $ player = exception #1
trade exception = exception #2

????????

I usually can grasp concepts like this one pretty well, but I am baffled on this.

 

[elindholm]

Is he saying that, in your example:

1 million $ player = exception #1
trade exception = exception #2

Okay, I'm going to be honest: I've read it several times, and I don't understand what he means.

But what I think he's referring to is that there are different kinds of "exceptions" required to make virtually any trade work. There's the assigned player exception and the minimum salary exception and the non-simultaneous exception and who knows what else. So I think what he's saying is, using the money from the Johnson trade is one kind of exception, and combining two salaries to make another salary would be another kind of exception.

I could ask him again, but I really don't want to be annoying. I'm pretty sure he understood the question (I wish I could be certain, but oh well), so at this point, I'm just happy to have an answer. But I must admit, it would be nice to understand it all a bit better.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who couldn't make sense of his answer. I honestly think he misunderstood the question.

Joe

 

[George O'Brien]

Maybe if we run it through bablefish it'll make more sense.

 

[Silverbullet]

Me seeka no english. Yeah I dont know what that means, other than you can not mix the te with players.

 

[Errntknght]

"What can't be done is using two exceptions on one player, and in your example, two exceptions (two distinct trade exceptions) are being used."

I'd go so far as to say its a rotten answer to your question since anyone that reads can see it only involves one trade exception so if he's going to claim it contains 'two distinct trade exceptions', he needs to say how the second trade exception arises out of thin air. I'm not saying that it doesn't somehow arise - after all this was all conceived by lawyers and there is nothing they like so much as things which only lawyers can understand... it does wonders for extending their power. A simple statement that salaries may be 'aggragated' but trade exceptions may not be aggragated would be too clear to everyone.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The example you gave would be using 2 exceptions.

The obvious one is the trade exception.

My guess is that since you claimed the player was making 1 million dollars, presumably a minimum deal, Coon is implying that you are using the million dollar exception as well.

Minimum salary players do not count for incoming salaries in trades. You can always trade a pick for minimum player for example. The do count for outgoing salary, but only the part that the team pays.


Just a hunch, but I wonder what he would have said if you had used bigger numbers? I think it is worth a reply asking another question, I have done it before and he never seemed to mind

 

[Yuma]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who couldn't make sense of his answer. I honestly think he misunderstood the question.

Joe

I think so, too.

I can't remember any specific trade, but I remember seeing an exception and a player for another player before. It's bugging the crap outta me because I can't remember who it was specifically for since it wasn't the Suns. That way we would have an example to go by. I just remember reading an article where they explained a trade and it was the example we keep arguing about.

 

[Chaplin]

The question is if the "exception" can for all intents and purposes be considered a player, rather than just a sum of money. On one hand, it can be traded like one, but on the other, that exception doesn't affect our bottom line right now, does it?

I don't understand the reasoning for NOT being able to combine a player and an exception, even if it is high salaried.

 

[elindholm]

My guess is that since you claimed the player was making 1 million dollars, presumably a minimum deal, Coon is implying that you are using the million dollar exception as well.

Oh F!!%#@!$!$*, I'll bet you're right!

Darnit! I referred to Barbosa later, but he probably thought it was a different question.

God, I don't have the heart to ask him again. Anyone else?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I don't understand the reasoning for NOT being able to combine a player and an exception, even if it is high salaried.

Because it is a way to circumvent trade rules.

For example (I am just using numbers here, ignore the actual trade),

Say this season we trade Shawn Marion to a team with cap space for a first round pick. We could then use the TE generated by that trade and Amare to get Kevin Garnett. That obviously isn't meant to be allowed by the CBA.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Maybe we'll do better trying to find the answer to this by looking at examples of trades in which exceptions were used.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I can't remember any specific trade, but I remember seeing an exception and a player for another player before. It's bugging the crap outta me because I can't remember who it was specifically for since it wasn't the Suns. That way we would have an example to go by. I just remember reading an article where they explained a trade and it was the example we keep arguing about.

Is it possible that you are thinking of something from the '95 CBA?

Also, are you sure it wasn't a TE and a player for 2 players? Trades like that are often reported as 1 deal when they are in fact 2 seperate trades.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ok, I think I've got it now. This is from Coon's site.

67. What is the assigned player exception?

As described in question number 66 , exceptions are the mechanisms that allow teams to function above the salary cap. Any trade which results in the team ending up over the salary cap requires an exception. This is true even if the team is moving downward in salary. For example, if the salary cap is $42.5 million, a team has a team salary of $50 million, and they want to trade a $5 million player for a $4 million player, they still have to use an exception, Even though their team salary would be decreasing by $1 million, the fact that they would still be over the salary cap ($49 million) means that an exception is required.

The assigned player exception is the primary means used by teams over the cap for completing trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrctions on those trades. Mainly, a team cannot use the assigned player exception to acquire in trade more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salaries they are trading. For example, a team using the assigned player exception to trade a player who earns $5 million can receive one or more players whose salary is no more than 115% of $5 million, plus $100,000, or $5.85 million in return.

So, any trade including ANY player, when over the cap, is technically the use of an exception, even if it lowers your overall team salary. It's called an ASSIGNED player exception.

So in Eric's example, the trade of Barbosa is using the assigned player exception, and the trade exception would be the second. Since you cannot use two exeptions together, this is not allowed. Since there is no point in using a trade exception unless you are over the cap, combining a player with a trade exception in trade is pointless.

The good news is that there are a LOT of players in this price range, although most are young (in their rookie deals).

 

[cly2tw]

Instead of hypothetical trades why don't you guys try to find previous trades that used "assigned player exceptions"? Wasn't Carter traded to the Nets using part of Martin's trade exception? Any other trades one can recall?

 

[Errntknght]

It sounds like JC's got the explanation but remember Coon did say in his reply that the were "two distinct trade exceptions" involved. I took that to mean trade exceptions in the narrow sense - the kind of exceptions we got from trading JJ and Voskuhl. I suppose 'trade exception' could be used to cover all the exceptions one uses in trading players when over the cap and this is how Coon meant the expression becuase if JC is right then one trade exception and one assigned player exception would have had to be used and not two (narrowly defined) trade exceptions.

 

[Yuma]

So I guess my questions are:

1. Are we over the salary cap?

2. How long is the exception good for? (Doesn't it expire this season?)

This would give us a clue as to WHEN anything might happen on the player front. If we have to use it this season, then probably we are going to do it before the trade deadline. However, if we can carry it over to another season, we may not use it at all this year.

 

[Joe Mama]

I would say that JC's post along with Coon's response to Eric answers the questions. Good job guys.

Joe

 

[elindholm]

Great find, JCSunsFan! That seems to be right on target.

Errntknght, my guess is that Coon was using "trade exception" more generally, since techncially the term "trade exception" in the specific sense of things like the leftover Johnson money is a misnomer. (It's a "non-continuous" trade, which does not by itself imply anything, uh, exceptional -- even though most likely it required an exception to be initiated in the first place... ah, the hell with it.)

 

[elindholm]

Say this season we trade Shawn Marion to a team with cap space for a first round pick. We could then use the TE generated by that trade and Amare to get Kevin Garnett.

I can't believe you would do that trade for the Suns. Thank God you aren't running the team.

 

[Dustbuster]

Maybe the word "definitive" should be removed from the thread title. It seems the answer from Mr. Coon is anything but definitive.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

So I guess my questions are:

1. Are we over the salary cap?

2. How long is the exception good for? (Doesn't it expire this season?)

This would give us a clue as to WHEN anything might happen on the player front. If we have to use it this season, then probably we are going to do it before the trade deadline. However, if we can carry it over to another season, we may not use it at all this year.

1) Yes

2) 1 Year from the date we recieved it

 

[coloradosun]

My take

First answer
He stated that you can use two execptions in one trade but it has to be for mulitple players in return. That makes sense because two exceptions equal two players.

Second answer
The word aggregate means that you combine enough players or exceptions to make the deal work, be it between just two teams or multiple teams. My question can the aggregate come within the 125% of salaries in the deal, that would revert back to the his first answer where two exceptions would not necessarily equal two players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

My take

First answer
He stated that you can use two execptions in one trade but it has to be for mulitple players in return. That makes sense because two exceptions equal two players.

Second answer
The word aggregate means that you combine enough players or exceptions to make the deal work, be it between just two teams or multiple teams. My question can the aggregate come within the 125% of salaries in the deal, that would revert back to the his first answer where two exceptions would not necessarily equal two players.

First answer. Yes you can do that, but technically its two trades. The JJ to Atlanta was that. We used a previous trade exception to get Diaw, and then we used our Bird rights to sign JJ and trade him to Atlanta who was enough under the cap to absorb his entire salary. So we can complete the JJ trade at some point in the future.

Second answer. You can use the assigned player exception in an aggregate player deal, (with the 125% plus $100,000 fudge factor) but everything must be completed in the one deal. You cannot use it to complete a previous deal (bring a trade exception into it) and you cannot get a trade exception out of it.

So, here are the factors that apply.

1. You can receive more than one player for a trade exception.
2. You cannot combine exceptions to get one player.
3. In order for a team over the cap to trade any player, it must use an "assigned player exception" to make the deal.
4. Assigned player exceptions CAN be combined to make a trade work (along with the well-known fudge factor), but all the details have to be completed in a single trade (even if it is a multi-team trade). If you are over the cap, you cannot use a trade exception in such a trade (because, technically, the exception is the completion of a previous trade), and you cannot receive a trade exception as a result of such a trade.