Dennis Green fired

[Southpaw]

Wow, despite my touch of hangover, I surely do feel better.

Green is gone. I would like my 3 years back. I was ripped when I said he was a bad choice. I was called a racist, an idiot, and worse. It was just about winning games and building league respect. I don't think that happened during the Green/Graves run.

I just wonder where VikesFan is now. Hide the knives and guns.

 

[Rats]

I can't remember where I read it but I know I posted it here at the time. The NFL has a "whistleblower" policy which allows players to make complaints somewhat anonymously, and "without fear of retribution." Simply put, both Green and PK deny that's why he was cut, and the if that WAS why he was cut, the players union and PK would have nailed DG and the Cards with a lawsuit so fast it would have made us all dizzy.

He cut PK because he didn't think Kendall was buying into him. Wylie hated Kendall because he refused to move back to guard, and because he felt Kendall was lazy(originally I thought Wylie and Green disagreed on PK, they didn't, it was blocking schemes apparently). Green simply realized you can't have a "leader" on your team, who doesn't buy into the coach.

In the end I understood why Green cut him, didn't agree, felt he should have resolved it some other way(including a trade) but I'd be very surprised if Green cut him because he turned Green in, because that's a blatant violation of the whistleblower policy and the Cards would have been nailed to the wall for it.

I would say, think what you want, I was pretty much told from the horses mouth that the leader on the Offensive line could not undermine the HC and that is what was happening so he had to go. Take that however you want. Wasn't buying in, or indirectly got the team the loss of practices by saying something anonymously about having to wear pads. That didn't endear him to any of the coaches that were trying to shake up the roster.

 

[lobo]

I may be happier when I hear who the new coach is. I don't trust these idiots.

VERY well said......you MAY be happier..21 coaches or so later since 1950 must make us kinda' skeptical.

i think the steelers have had two coaches in about 30 or so years...we probobly had 15 or so.

 

[Stallion]

the next coach will inherit much more talent than Green inherited from Mac.

But as the talent improved, the product on the field didn't. So now we need to hire someone that can continue to assemble more talent, and coach the existing talent.

I agree with this. The cupboards aren't bare, even though the record still stinks.

Gotta get more good players, and get the good players to play better.

Go Cards.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would say, think what you want, I was pretty much told from the horses mouth that the leader on the Offensive line could not undermine the HC and that is what was happening so he had to go. Take that however you want. Wasn't buying in, or indirectly got the team the loss of practices by saying something anonymously about having to wear pads. That didn't endear him to any of the coaches that were trying to shake up the roster.

Undermining is not the same as turning him into the league. We've been over this before, Green has repeatedly stated that's not why he cut PK. Obviously he has to say that to avoid punishment since the NFL has a rule against cutting players as punishment for that, but given how controversial it was at the time it's pretty unlikely that it was that simple and the cards avoided punishment.

I thought your insider was hargrave, who wasn't even on the team when that happened?

 

[ajcardfan]

Undermining is not the same as turning him into the league. We've been over this before, Green has repeatedly stated that's not why he cut PK. Obviously he has to say that to avoid punishment since the NFL has a rule against cutting players as punishment for that, but given how controversial it was at the time it's pretty unlikely that it was that simple and the cards avoided punishment.

I thought your insider was hargrave, who wasn't even on the team when that happened?

About a year later the story was they asked Kendall to move to G before training camp. He refused, and that was the impetus for Green cutting him.

 

[Stout]

About a year later the story was they asked Kendall to move to G before training camp. He refused, and that was the impetus for Green cutting him.

Then he went to NY and played G. What a selfish tool.

 

[Zeno]

About a year later the story was they asked Kendall to move to G before training camp. He refused, and that was the impetus for Green cutting him.

That kinda makes no sense because he signed with the Jets and played OG didn't he?

 

[ajcardfan]

That kinda makes no sense because he signed with the Jets and played OG didn't he?

Yep. He didn't like Green though. You might be willing to cooperate for one coach but not another. Maybe he remembered that's what Corey Chavous did?

This story was much discussed when it came out.

 

[Russ Smith]

About a year later the story was they asked Kendall to move to G before training camp. He refused, and that was the impetus for Green cutting him.

That's what I said in the earlier post. Wylie came out and said he asked Kendall to move to guard, he refused, and he was perfectly in agreement with Green about cutting him.

If I understand Rats correctly he's saying his insider told him that's not true, that's why I asked about Hargrave since I thought that was the guy Rats knew, and he wasn't even with the team when PK was cut, he was brought in later as a special consultant.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yep. He didn't like Green though. You might be willing to cooperate for one coach but not another. Maybe he remembered that's what Corey Chavous did?

This story was much discussed when it came out.

And one of his best friends, Mawae, was the Jets C when he signed there.

Basically he just didn't believe in what Green was trying to instill in Arizona, not sure if it was the OL schemes, or something larger, but clearly Kendall didn't want to be a part of it.

 

[Rats]

Undermining is not the same as turning him into the league. We've been over this before, Green has repeatedly stated that's not why he cut PK. Obviously he has to say that to avoid punishment since the NFL has a rule against cutting players as punishment for that, but given how controversial it was at the time it's pretty unlikely that it was that simple and the cards avoided punishment.

I thought your insider was hargrave, who wasn't even on the team when that happened?

As I stated, believe what you would like to and yes Hargrave coached with my brother before coming to the Cardinals. He is not the source of this. It was at a Tent function I asked the question of a Cards employ who I respect. I took his answer to mean what I stated. It was during last seasons Oline meltdown I was wondering about it. Conveinant you skipped right over what I was really saying in my origional post and decided to try and look like the smartest guy on the forum again. Russ will be Russ. Mr. I told you so......all the way from the bay area.....whatever. You and Mitch kill me. Happy New Year.

 

[Russ Smith]

As I stated, believe what you would like to and yes Hargrave coached with my brother before coming to the Cardinals. He is not the source of this. It was at a Tent function I asked the question of a Cards employ who I respect. I took his answer to mean what I stated. It was during last seasons Oline meltdown I was wondering about it. Conveinant you skipped right over what I was really saying in my origional post and decided to try and look like the smartest guy on the forum again. Russ will be Russ. Mr. I told you so......all the way from the bay area.....whatever. You and Mitch kill me. Happy New Year.

Your original post said that Green cut Kendall because Kendall ratted him out to the league. If that's true, it's amazing Kendall didn't file a grievance since it's a blatant violation of the whistleblower policy. Kendall hated Green, remember the stories that first year about how Kendall said he held no grudge against Arizona there was only one man there he had problems with and he still wasn't sure why Green axed him?

The point is, Wylie very publicly said that Kendall refused to switch positions and the inference was that was what got him in the coaches' doghouse.

Not trying to appear smarter than you at all, just that if it was Hargrave who told you, it wouldn't have made sense since he wasn't even there when it happened. But you're saying it's not hargrave so that's a moot point. I guess I'd have to have asked the followup that you apparently didn't ask your source, why didn't PK file a grievance when it was obvious he hated Green?

 

[Rats]

Your original post said that Green cut Kendall because Kendall ratted him out to the league. If that's true, it's amazing Kendall didn't file a grievance since it's a blatant violation of the whistleblower policy. Kendall hated Green, remember the stories that first year about how Kendall said he held no grudge against Arizona there was only one man there he had problems with and he still wasn't sure why Green axed him?

The point is, Wylie very publicly said that Kendall refused to switch positions and the inference was that was what got him in the coaches' doghouse.

Not trying to appear smarter than you at all, just that if it was Hargrave who told you, it wouldn't have made sense since he wasn't even there when it happened. But you're saying it's not hargrave so that's a moot point. I guess I'd have to have asked the followup that you apparently didn't ask your source, why didn't PK file a grievance when it was obvious he hated Green?

I was told that he was undermining the coach so he had to go. I took it to mean what I have stated. I did not hear anything about the reason being PK not wanting to be moved to guard. That is the first time I have heard that. He went to NY as others have stated and played guard, so this makes no sense. I did not state you were trying to be smarter than me, just trying as usual to show you are the smartest guy on the forum. Maybe we should give you an award or something.

 

[Russ Smith]

I was told that he was undermining the coach so he had to go. I took it to mean what I have stated. I did not hear anything about the reason being PK not wanting to be moved to guard. That is the first time I have heard that. He went to NY as others have stated and played guard, so this makes no sense. I did not state you were trying to be smarter than me, just trying as usual to show you are the smartest guy on the forum. Maybe we should give you an award or something.

Well to be fair, your posts are a bit inconsistent. First post said Green fired him because kendall went behind his back to the league. Second post says he was undermining him and a leader can't do that, now you say you interpreted teh comment to have been about the complaint to the league. In other words you took someone else's comment and applied your own opinion on it, which we all do, most of us don't claim it was straight from the horses mouth though.

The Wylie stuff was on teh board at the time it came out, I won't bother to search for it but I know there was at least one pretty long thread about it on here since it contradicted the prevailing opinion that Kendall was the guy who turned Green in.

Again, Kendall played next to mawae, his best friend, in New York. Big difference changing positions to play next to a friend, over doing it for a coach who you apparently dislike and don't believe in.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, for years the Cards tried to make Chavous a safety and he resisted, finally signs with Minnesota, and becomes a pro bowl safety. Losing teams like us don't always get as much cooperation from players.

Sorry it's a lot harder to start an argument with me these days, going to have to really work at it with the personal comments. BTW I agree with you that Chow might be an intriguing guy, I'm not sold he can be a HC but he is an offensive guru.

 

[Rats]

Well to be fair, your posts are a bit inconsistent. First post said Green fired him because kendall went behind his back to the league. Second post says he was undermining him and a leader can't do that, now you say you interpreted teh comment to have been about the complaint to the league. In other words you took someone else's comment and applied your own opinion on it, which we all do, most of us don't claim it was straight from the horses mouth though.

The Wylie stuff was on teh board at the time it came out, I won't bother to search for it but I know there was at least one pretty long thread about it on here since it contradicted the prevailing opinion that Kendall was the guy who turned Green in.

Again, Kendall played next to mawae, his best friend, in New York. Big difference changing positions to play next to a friend, over doing it for a coach who you apparently dislike and don't believe in.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, for years the Cards tried to make Chavous a safety and he resisted, finally signs with Minnesota, and becomes a pro bowl safety. Losing teams like us don't always get as much cooperation from players.

Sorry it's a lot harder to start an argument with me these days, going to have to really work at it with the personal comments. BTW I agree with you that Chow might be an intriguing guy, I'm not sold he can be a HC but he is an offensive guru.

I don't think I have made any personal comments, I wasn't the one that called you out on your " I told you so post" someone else did. You brought me up however as the one you argued with. Everyone pretty well knows you as the guy who has to be right and you have some 20k posts to show for it. You usually have more questions than answers I have found. We actually have talked about you some at the tailgate. So you probably should get some kind of award for long suffering but always in the know on all things Cardinal. I am envious, I have more access and still don't know half what you do about the Cardinals, NFL, or well just pick a subject...

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't think I have made any personal comments, I wasn't the one that called you out on your " I told you so post" someone else did. You brought me up however as the one you argued with. Everyone pretty well knows you as the guy who has to be right and you have some 20k posts to show for it. You usually have more questions than answers I have found. We actually have talked about you some at the tailgate. So you probably should get some kind of award for long suffering but always in the know on all things Cardinal. I am envious, I have more access and still don't know half what you do about the Cardinals, NFL, or well just pick a subject...

"Don't make me dig up all those threads from Green's first year when Rats was getting mad at me for saying Green was the wrong choice."

that was my first mention of you, and it was followed with a big smiley, if you take that as being called out, that's because of your existing opinion of me, not something I actually wrote. You have to admit 3 years ago you and I tangled repeatedly because I didn't like things about Green and you felt I was just mad they didn't hire Heimerdinger.

the first post on this thread that was personal was #87, and you made it. All I did was ask if Hargrave was the source or not since he wasn't here when it happened, and if he was the source, it meant he got it from someone else and just seemed really odd that anybody would tell him that given it violated the whistleblower policy. IIRC at the time it happened Jurecki brought up that policy and said penalties for violating it include worst case scenario a draft pick.

Apparently you took that to be an insult or me suggesting you were lying, all it was meant to be was a question since you'd mentioned in the past you knew Hargrave.

 

[Rats]

"Don't make me dig up all those threads from Green's first year when Rats was getting mad at me for saying Green was the wrong choice."

that was my first mention of you, and it was followed with a big smiley, if you take that as being called out, that's because of your existing opinion of me, not something I actually wrote. You have to admit 3 years ago you and I tangled repeatedly because I didn't like things about Green and you felt I was just mad they didn't hire Heimerdinger.

the first post on this thread that was personal was #87, and you made it. All I did was ask if Hargrave was the source or not since he wasn't here when it happened, and if he was the source, it meant he got it from someone else and just seemed really odd that anybody would tell him that given it violated the whistleblower policy. IIRC at the time it happened Jurecki brought up that policy and said penalties for violating it include worst case scenario a draft pick.

Apparently you took that to be an insult or me suggesting you were lying, all it was meant to be was a question since you'd mentioned in the past you knew Hargrave.

Well I guess it wasn't as difficult as you made out I didn't take anything as an insult or that you were implying anything. I was just clarifying for you the source. With the whole PK thing I know that you have considered that maybe PK wanted to continue playing in the NFL and that if he went after Green and the Cardinals then there wouldn't be much chance of that. He would have likely been blackballed out of the league. Jurecki from day one had an ax to grind with DG and the access he lost. I never put much stock in what he said. Again I didn't call you out as "Mr. I told you so"......I just was trying to point out that I argued for DG because of his name, Minny record, and talent building ability. I wanted Jimmie Johnson but took the next big name coach as we had a full appetite of also rans. I seem to recall most of our arguements were over LD to left tackle and not PK...but I am not going to swear to that. There now you can start another "I told you so thread on LD"

 

[Pariah]

You usually have more questions than answers I have found.

I'll interject only to wonder what's wrong with having more questions than answers.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well I guess it wasn't as difficult as you made out I didn't take anything as an insult or that you were implying anything. I was just clarifying for you the source. With the whole PK thing I know that you have considered that maybe PK wanted to continue playing in the NFL and that if he went after Green and the Cardinals then there wouldn't be much chance of that. He would have likely been blackballed out of the league. Jurecki from day one had an ax to grind with DG and the access he lost. I never put much stock in what he said. Again I didn't call you out as "Mr. I told you so"......I just was trying to point out that I argued for DG because of his name, Minny record, and talent building ability. I wanted Jimmie Johnson but took the next big name coach as we had a full appetite of also rans. I seem to recall most of our arguements were over LD to left tackle and not PK...but I am not going to swear to that. There now you can start another "I told you so thread on LD"

to be honest LD has been a much better LT than I ever expected, and I've posted that repeatedly. I think he's a better guard than LT but I'm with everyone else I hope we keep Big, we're not going to easily replace him if we don't.

I don't know if PK would be blackballed or not, possibly, but I'd assume he'd wait until he signed his next contract before he filed the grievance just to avoid that?

I just hope we make a better hire this time around. I think Green did a good job of drafting, and a lousy job of coaching. This time around I hope we find someone that can coach existing players and work in new talent from the draft and FA. the only real surprise to me was Green failed as a coach, not as a person, I really thought in the end his undoing here would be the same as it was in Minnesota when he simply got too power hungry.

But I'm glad he's gone and I would assume the decision was made months ago and we've been doing our homework all along so we'll be ready to go as soon as the guy we want is available.

 

[Rats]

to be honest LD has been a much better LT than I ever expected, and I've posted that repeatedly. I think he's a better guard than LT but I'm with everyone else I hope we keep Big, we're not going to easily replace him if we don't.

I don't know if PK would be blackballed or not, possibly, but I'd assume he'd wait until he signed his next contract before he filed the grievance just to avoid that?

I just hope we make a better hire this time around. I think Green did a good job of drafting, and a lousy job of coaching. This time around I hope we find someone that can coach existing players and work in new talent from the draft and FA. the only real surprise to me was Green failed as a coach, not as a person, I really thought in the end his undoing here would be the same as it was in Minnesota when he simply got too power hungry.

But I'm glad he's gone and I would assume the decision was made months ago and we've been doing our homework all along so we'll be ready to go as soon as the guy we want is available.

PK had a rep of being a Locker room Lawyer type even before he came to the Cardinals. One of the reasons Seattle couldn't wait to unload him. He had a large contract and was prepared to go to camp. The interview I watched the day he was cut showed him already packed to go to camp and they cut him that day. It is not a stretch to think he was the problem with the union with his history. No way either party admits to anything there though IMO. We can't get quality for the cap space we have so you have to bring LD back at least for a year, I would prefer longer. He is a top tackle and suited for Matt. He grades out as the best lineman we have so no reason not to bring him back. I will not assume anything with this front office as they have let us down time and again, and anyone that can make a case for Rod Graves to get 3 more years after the last 6 I would like to here it. He should have been on the bus out of town.

 

[Russ Smith]

PK had a rep of being a Locker room Lawyer type even before he came to the Cardinals. One of the reasons Seattle couldn't wait to unload him. He had a large contract and was prepared to go to camp. The interview I watched the day he was cut showed him already packed to go to camp and they cut him that day. It is not a stretch to think he was the problem with the union with his history. No way either party admits to anything there though IMO. We can't get quality for the cap space we have so you have to bring LD back at least for a year, I would prefer longer. He is a top tackle and suited for Matt. He grades out as the best lineman we have so no reason not to bring him back. I will not assume anything with this front office as they have let us down time and again, and anyone that can make a case for Rod Graves to get 3 more years after the last 6 I would like to here it. He should have been on the bus out of town.

Completely agree on Graves, he hasn't done anything but be loyal and when you're on a team with 5 consecutive 10 or more loss seasons, I don't think loyalty should be a case for job security.

Last week someone said Big wants to play guard not tackle, last year Green said the exact opposite, who knows. I think it's pretty obvious the false starts are a direct result of trying to get off the ball quickly to block speed rushers, something that wouldn't be necessary at guard. But it's just as obvious that we don't have anybody that can readily replace him, we have a ton of cap room, and it would be silly to let him walk away for nothing.

I think the right coach can get this team to the playoffs next year, win the division. Now I just read this morning that Sf says playoffs or bust next year, Gore says he wants to get 2200 yards, they have over 41 million in cap room(most in the NFL) and are primed for a big UFA signing period but as I keep saying I just think most of the really good players will be kept by the current teams because EVERYONE has caproom with the cap going up so quickly. I think SF is going to find themselves out in the cold unless they do really well signing a bunch of mid tier guys. But I think if you look at our division you can make a case for any team there as winning it, Seattle the incumbent, SF up and coming, Rams still have talent, and we clearly have talent just need to shore up some things.

Should be exciting. Firing a coach is always a crossroads, means a lot of things went wrong, means there's a chance to fix things.

 

[RedStorm]

Wow, despite my touch of hangover, I surely do feel better.

Green is gone. I would like my 3 years back. I was ripped when I said he was a bad choice. I was called a racist, an idiot, and worse. It was just about winning games and building league respect. I don't think that happened during the Green/Graves run.

I just wonder where VikesFan is now. Hide the knives and guns.

You should stick to the P&R Board where we ALL LOVE YOU WALLY!!!!

 

[Southpaw]

You should stick to the P&R Board where we ALL LOVE YOU WALLY!!!!