Dennis Smith Jr

[95pro]

Yes, but in all fairness, everyone can shoot better than JJ.

Exactly. And its not like JJ is part of our starting AND finishing 5.

 

[SirStefan32]

Exactly. And its not like JJ is part of our starting AND finishing 5.

Yeah, I go back and forth with JJ. Most days I feel like I am done with him, but he has so much potential that I keep hoping he will just slow down. When he slows down, he plays well. He is also a big part of that defensive second unit.
Don't get me wrong, I am cool with trading JJ, but I am not sure DSJ is the answer at PG.

 

[95pro]

Yeah, I go back and forth with JJ. Most days I feel like I am done with him, but he has so much potential that I keep hoping he will just slow down. When he slows down, he plays well. He is also a big part of that defensive second unit.
Don't get me wrong, I am cool with trading JJ, but I am not sure DSJ is the answer at PG.

Same thoughts here. Back and forth with him as well. I enjoy the motor and defense he brings. He can have an off night shooting but still change the game with the second unit and defense.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

JJ does 3 things that still give me very high hopes for him. He has great defensive instincts (always seems to come up with amazing blocks and steals), he is always playing with a ton of energy and he has the athleticism to essentially get wherever he wants to get on the court. All of his issues IMO are tied to the details like taking proper angles when attacking the basket, making only passes that you know you can complete without turnovers. Obviously it would be nice for him to get a consistent jumper and add some strength, but even if he doesn't get a better shot he could still be a very good player by simply continuing to work on the details. He just has things that really can't be taught that make it hard for me to believe he won't be a very good player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's just not accurate to call him a bad player. Last year he was one of the top 3 or 4 rookies, and his numbers this year while down shooting wise have not cratered like Jackson's have.

Is he a below average player currently - yes. Josh Jackson has literally been one of the 5 worst players statistically all year. The gap is not small.

They both have a a bunch of potential, but Smith has shown more so far and he is a pg. Is he the ideal pg for the Suns - no. Is he probably the best they can obtain for a reasonable price - yes most likely.

Sorry but it most certainly is accurate, he's been a bad player. He was a good rookie last year but that was "for a rookie". There's a reason both he and Jackson have a negative WS/48 for their careers, they've both been bad players.

 

[SirStefan32]

JJ does 3 things that still give me very high hopes for him. He has great defensive instincts (always seems to come up with amazing blocks and steals), he is always playing with a ton of energy and he has the athleticism to essentially get wherever he wants to get on the court. All of his issues IMO are tied to the details like taking proper angles when attacking the basket, making only passes that you know you can complete without turnovers. Obviously it would be nice for him to get a consistent jumper and add some strength, but even if he doesn't get a better shot he could still be a very good player by simply continuing to work on the details. He just has things that really can't be taught that make it hard for me to believe he won't be a very good player.

He is also a very willing passer, and actually a good one. He can create for others as well as for himself. His problem is that he just can't slow down consistently. If he could stop driving to the hoop and jumping BEFORE figuring out if he wants to shoot or pass, that would make him a much better player. He also needs to stop with the "frustration" mistakes. Last game, I think he either missed a shot or turned the ball over and then proceeded to commit a clear-path foul out of frustration. Last thing is that he needs to play within himself. He is not an off the dribble long-range shooter. He tries to be a Booker or a Luka, and that's just not his game. They can make those weird shots, but he cannot. Just defend, don't over-dribble, focus on making SIMPLE passes, and only shoot threes in rhythm, with feet and body set PRIOR to getting the ball.

Theoretically, these things SHOULD occur as he gets more experience, but I just get really frustrated watching him do stupid stuff. He has so much talent that it hurts watching it go to waste by doing stupid stuff over and over and over and over.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He is also a very willing passer, and actually a good one. He can create for others as well as for himself. His problem is that he just can't slow down consistently. If he could stop driving to the hoop and jumping BEFORE figuring out if he wants to shoot or pass, that would make him a much better player. He also needs to stop with the "frustration" mistakes. Last game, I think he either missed a shot or turned the ball over and then proceeded to commit a clear-path foul out of frustration. Last thing is that he needs to play within himself. He is not an off the dribble long-range shooter. He tries to be a Booker or a Luka, and that's just not his game. They can make those weird shots, but he cannot. Just defend, don't over-dribble, focus on making SIMPLE passes, and only shoot threes in rhythm, with feet and body set PRIOR to getting the ball.

Theoretically, these things SHOULD occur as he gets more experience, but I just get really frustrated watching him do stupid stuff. He has so much talent that it hurts watching it go to waste by doing stupid stuff over and over and over and over.

We are already seeing the improvement in his last 8-10 games though. He is doing exactly what you said he needs to do and is slowing things down and it has showed in both his individual success and the team's success. Of course he still occasionally does something boneheaded, but you have to keep in mind that he still just a 2nd year player and this is his first year in an organized NBA system. Igor asks a lot of his wing players as he wants all of them to be able to create for themselves and for others. Ariza just flat out couldn't handle it and looked terrible for us, but JJ is starting to look like he is figuring it out recently and I assume he will continue to get even more comfortable with his role and will keep improving because of that.

 

[Proximo]

Can Smith JR shoot better than JJ?

Yes. JJ is shooting .388 overall, .288 from 3, and .623 from the free throw line .425 efg

Smith is .437, .354 and .667. .496 efg

Actually I was reading this incorrectly before, his shooting has improved this year, by a decent margin.

 

[Proximo]

I would be cool with it, but if the trade involves JJ than it needs to essentially be a one for one swap.

Why, because of their draft position?

It is clear Smith is the better player, so we should have to throw in a little extra.

 

[Proximo]

Sorry but it most certainly is accurate, he's been a bad player. He was a good rookie last year but that was "for a rookie". There's a reason both he and Jackson have a negative WS/48 for their careers, they've both been bad players.

Bad is a relative term.

For a second year player, he is definitely not bad.

If you are comparing him against all NBA players regardless of experience he is below average - but I would not describe him as bad. I would reserve bad for the bottom 10 -15 percent of the league, and he is better than that.

However Josh Jackson is without a doubt Bad by every statistical measure this season.

 

[SirStefan32]

Why, because of their draft position?

It is clear Smith is the better player, so we should have to throw in a little extra.

Potential. Smith is likely what he is always going to be, AND he has some injury concerns. JJ's potential is much higher.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i'm thumbs down on Smith

1. i'd rather develop Melton and Okobo and wait for a better than average pg opportunity
2. don't want to trade with Cuban
3. wary about trading Jackson while the jury is out on whether a better coaching staff could maximize his potential. he seems smart enough to learn. I'd like to give him one more off-season to fix his shot (TJ's coach?)

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Why, because of their draft position?

It is clear Smith is the better player, so we should have to throw in a little extra.

What is so clear about it? Smith has been a more efficient scorer and JJ the better and more valuable defender. Both turn the ball over too much as well. I fail to see, at least statistically, what makes DSJ "clearly" better than JJ.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bad is a relative term.

For a second year player, he is definitely not bad.

If you are comparing him against all NBA players regardless of experience he is below average - but I would not describe him as bad. I would reserve bad for the bottom 10 -15 percent of the league, and he is better than that.

However Josh Jackson is without a doubt Bad by every statistical measure this season.

It's not precisely the way I see it but I'm okay with most of this except I think you're stuck in early December when it comes to Jackson. He was probably the worst minutes eater in the league until the past few weeks. It will take quite some time to dig his way out of this hole he created but his positive stats are climbing quickly. He's moved up from the bottom (roughly) of 341 rated players to 305th in Hollinger's system. Smith is at 244.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It's not precisely the way I see it but I'm okay with most of this except I think you're stuck in early December when it comes to Jackson. He was probably the worst minutes eater in the league until the past few weeks. It will take quite some time to dig his way out of this hole he created but his positive stats are climbing quickly. He's moved up from the bottom (roughly) of 341 rated players to 305th in Hollinger's system. Smith is at 244.

JJ is a better player than his stats indicate at the moment. That is because his stats at the beginning of the year were so bad. I am not sold on DSJr. But I would have to look at him as a player as well. I haven't really done that. Word is that Dallas wants to trade him because he is not really effective without the ball in his hands. How does that work with Booker and Ayton? He might be a pg, but is he a pg that fits with what we have here?

The problem with these point forward types of players like Simmons and Doncic is that it is really difficult to figure out what type of pg to play with them. DSJr might just be a misfit with Doncic. I just don't know.

 

[SunnyBaller]

I'm not saying trade for Smith because I honestly don't like the fit next to Booker myself, not for a long term option anyway, but why are so many people against the trading of JJ? He has alot of potential and could end up being what everyone thought he could be but we have alot of good wings on the team, we don't need a team of all wings when we could move just one of them for something we desperately need like a point guard. And if one wing is going to be traded right now I would say JJ, I would rather trade him over bridges Warren and oubre without a second thought as it stands right now.

 

[1tinsoldier]

can't risk the emotional trauma of Suns vs Mavs with Doncic and JJ starting (if he gets his act together under Rick Carlisle)

we out-sharked Cuban when we signed Nash. let's leave it that way

 

[Proximo]

Potential. Smith is likely what he is always going to be, AND he has some injury concerns. JJ's potential is much higher.

Maybe Jackson has a slightly higher potential. Only because a good wing is harder to find. But he is less likely to achieve it.

Smith is athletically superior as well - he is fast and has a 48 inch vertical, and he does not need to rebuild his jump shot like Jackson is, and he could easily become a top PG.

Basically it's like this - Josh Jackson does not deserve minutes in the NBA based on his performance. The only reason he is getting them is because of his potential.

Smith is good enough to be earning minutes on almost any team now.

 

[Proximo]

What is so clear about it? Smith has been a more efficient scorer and JJ the better and more valuable defender. Both turn the ball over too much as well. I fail to see, at least statistically, what makes DSJ "clearly" better than JJ.

Well lets go through a few stats then

JJ .425 efg
Smith .496 efg
So his shooting sucks by comparison

JJ 8.7 PER
Smith 11.3 PER

JJ 84 Ortg 112 Drtg
Smith 95 Ortg 110 DRtg

JJ -.7 Value over Replacement player
Smith -.1 Value over Replacement player

JJ -1.2 Win share
Smith .1 Win share

JJ -5.6 Box plus minus
Smith -2.4 Box plus minus

Yep, Smith is superior in every overall rating system to Jackson, and its not very close.

As for you guys saying Jackson has turned it around lately - may I remind you we thought the same thing at the end of last season, then he came into this season and stunk it up worse than Dragan freakin Bender.

I certainly do see him trying harder on defense. But I still see him making extremely boneheaded passes, and taking stupid shots - although I will admit these have dropped quite a bit.
I guess to put it simply, I just don't trust the guy.

 

[BC867]

2. don't want to trade with Cuban

If there were a trade which would benefit both teams, you would cut off your nose to spite your face?

Is that any way to build a winner?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not saying trade for Smith because I honestly don't like the fit next to Booker myself, not for a long term option anyway, but why are so many people against the trading of JJ? He has alot of potential and could end up being what everyone thought he could be but we have alot of good wings on the team, we don't need a team of all wings when we could move just one of them for something we desperately need like a point guard. And if one wing is going to be traded right now I would say JJ, I would rather trade him over bridges Warren and oubre without a second thought as it stands right now.

I think it's because his potential is considerably greater than his current value. I hate the idea of selling rock bottom low on someone. Especially not on someone who clearly has the potential to be a good 2 way player even if he might never become the player we expected on draft day.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it's way too early to call Dennis Smith Jr. a "bad player."

I'm not writing him off as a bad player, I'm saying that's what he's been to date if you just view him as you would any NBA player. If you look at his age and experience level, he's on track to become a pretty good player. Much of that will depend on whether he can improve his shooting and reduce his turnovers but I think in the long run he'll be viewed more as a decent combo guard than a point.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm not saying trade for Smith because I honestly don't like the fit next to Booker myself, not for a long term option anyway, but why are so many people against the trading of JJ? He has alot of potential and could end up being what everyone thought he could be but we have alot of good wings on the team, we don't need a team of all wings when we could move just one of them for something we desperately need like a point guard. And if one wing is going to be traded right now I would say JJ, I would rather trade him over bridges Warren and oubre without a second thought as it stands right now.

Part of the reason is potential, as Steve pointed out, but I don't think people are really opposed to trading JJ. I am opposed to trading him for the sake of trading him. If a deal comes along that sends JJ somewhere in exchange for someone who can help the Suns, I'd be fine with trading JJ.

 

[sdscard4]

DSJ for Bender, Okobo and Mil #1. I love the idea for getting him but that's a steep price. And I'm one who feels DSJ is better than JJ

 

[JCSunsfan]

DSJ for Bender, Okobo and Mil #1. I love the idea for getting him but that's a steep price. And I'm one who feels DSJ is better than JJ

Bender, Okobo and the Milwaukee first would be acceptible. It would probably be good for Dallas too. Okobo is young, promising and can be effective without the ball in his hands. Bender is just filler. The first would be the problem. It would probably take a better pick to make this deal work.