Developing Len, Warren, Goodwin & Ennis

[AzStevenCal]

He needs to get an opportunity. Everyone can see that Goodwin has the talent but it will never amount to anything if the Suns don't give him consistent minutes.

Len had that opportunity despite playing pretty bad at first but he was still given consistent minutes to develop.

The Suns need to free up minutes for Warren and Goodwin to play. Young players do not get better by only practice and watching. Our most likely best case this season is again #8 seed and no chance in the first round or 9th seed once OKC overtakes us as expected.

Suns need to trade Tucker to free up minutes for Warren and one or 2 of Green/Dragic/(Thomas) to free up minutes for Goodwin/Ennis.

Although I think Goodwin is close to the point where he needs to start getting regular game minutes keep in mind that Len improved during the offseason. During the season, all we heard about from the front office, coaching staff and players was how much Len had improved and how well he was playing. McDonough promised Len would surprise us and he has. We've heard nothing like this about Goodwin. The only positive coming out about Archie was how hard he was working.

Steve

 

[Matt L]

Does anyone else think Len should get more minutes? Shouldn't he be playing like 30 minutes a game?

 

[slinslin]

Does anyone else think Len should get more minutes? Shouldn't he be playing like 30 minutes a game?

Everyone would like to see that, like Gobert in Utah.

If you polled Suns fans what the best thing about this season is
a) Seeing Len develop
or
b) Having a winning team

I am pretty sure a) would win.

I don't really see where McDonough is taking us. The trades he has done were all pretty good indvidually but overall I can't see the direction. We are not comitted to developing our young guys, we have a lot of tradeable assets but almost all of them are only appealing to contenders.

We are in the same situation the Rockets were in before getting Harden except there is no contender in a similiar situation to OKC back then and the only big name players that might become available are on teams that would look to rebuild.

Lets say Demarcus Cousins was available, I am not sure despite all our assets that we can compete with Boston's offer.

 

[sunsfan88]

Everyone would like to see that, like Gobert in Utah.

If you polled Suns fans what the best thing about this season is
a) Seeing Len develop
or
b) Having a winning team

I am pretty sure a) would win.

I don't really see where McDonough is taking us. The trades he has done were all pretty good indvidually but overall I can't see the direction. We are not comitted to developing our young guys, we have a lot of tradeable assets but almost all of them are only appealing to contenders.

We are in the same situation the Rockets were in before getting Harden except there is no contender in a similiar situation to OKC back then and the only big name players that might become available are on teams that would look to rebuild.

Lets say Demarcus Cousins was available, I am not sure despite all our assets that we can compete with Boston's offer.

Probably the only time I'll ever say this to you but yea, I can't disagree with any of this.

 

[Suns_fan69]

As far as I know they haven't discussed this publicly but I wonder if Len is on a minutes restriction to make sure his legs and feet don't flare up?

*ah, just saw the comments in the other thread, looks like this is true at least very recently.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Does anyone else think Len should get more minutes? Shouldn't he be playing like 30 minutes a game?

I think they are carefully watching the wear and tear they put on his ankles.

 

[95pro]

Goodwin is just so young still. I'd hate for us to give up on him and not get him some playing time.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Goodwin is just so young still. I'd hate for us to give up on him and not get him some playing time.

I don't care about the playing time. AFAIC, he still hasn't improved in the areas he needs to that have nothing to do with playing in the game. If he can master the basics of team defense, for example, than I could see giving him minutes. Those minutes would then, hopefully, show him what he needs to do next to up his game. But I don't want to give up on him either.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Lol Goodwin mastering team defense...

How about 3/4 of the Suns lineup that actually plays grasps the concept of team defense first? There's not a doubt in my mind that Goodwin is a better defender than Dragic, Kieff, IT, Green, and Marcus.

 

[95pro]

I don't care about the playing time. AFAIC, he still hasn't improved in the areas he needs to that have nothing to do with playing in the game. If he can master the basics of team defense, for example, than I could see giving him minutes. Those minutes would then, hopefully, show him what he needs to do next to up his game. But I don't want to give up on him either.

Steve

D League plays defense?

Can't really progress without any actual NBA minutes. Look how doubters of Len are being proven wrong.

He needs consistent minutes to see what he really is. I wouldn't call last years minutes consistent at all.

Goodwin didn't get on a crappy enough team to get minutes. He's just raw right now.

 

[Phrazbit]

D League plays defense?

Can't really progress without any actual NBA minutes. Look how doubters of Len are being proven wrong.

He needs consistent minutes to see what he really is. I wouldn't call last years minutes consistent at all.

Goodwin didn't get on a crappy enough team to get minutes. He's just raw right now.

I'm thrilled to be wrong about Len, but if anything he is an example of how you CAN progress without meaningful NBA minutes. The guy hardly played as a rookie, when he did he sucked, and came into this season as a clearly improved player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm thrilled to be wrong about Len, but if anything he is an example of how you CAN progress without meaningful NBA minutes. The guy hardly played as a rookie, when he did he sucked, and came into this season as a clearly improved player.

Yeah, Len is what Archie needs to take a look at. I really have no idea whether Goodwin should be playing minutes. The only reason I take the "no he shouldn't" side is because of all the people ripping the coaches for not playing him. We have so little information, this is one of those areas where I think second guessing the coaching staff makes little sense. If he truly deserves playing time, I have every confidence he'll get it.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Much to Goodwin's displeasure...

Suns Shut Down Any Archie Goodwin Suitors, Keep Him At Core Of Future

The Phoenix Suns have made clear to Archie Goodwin and around the NBA that the franchise has the second-year guard as a cornerstone of its future, shutting down interested suitors, league sources told RealGM.

Whenever contacted with interest from major- and minor- market teams, the Suns have shown no willingness to move Goodwin, promising that he’s a major part of their talent core.

“Archie doesn’t want out of Phoenix,” Goodwin’s agent, Charles Briscoe, told RealGM on Wednesday. “His words have been twisted in a recent article. We’re willing to wait for Archie’s opportunity. Any player in the NBA wants to play immediately, but we understand that Phoenix is in a playoff push. If we have to wait for next year, we’re OK with that. We know he will get his opportunity, and he’ll be ready.”

Phoenix acquired Goodwin with the 29th pick in the 2013 NBA Draft, a talented 6-foot-5 player drafted onto a roster that already had backcourt depth, and the plan had always been to fully incorporate him into the rotation by his third season in the league.

At 20 years old, Goodwin came into training camp with an elevated workout regimen, improved basketball shape and a thirst to crack the Suns’ rotation. In 12 appearances this season, he has averaged 3.9 points and 1.3 rebounds in 7.8 minutes a game.

Goodwin was sent to the Suns’ Development League affiliate, Bakersfield, before the Showcase and won the event’s MVP while scoring 70 points and grabbing 17 rebounds over three games. He has several more D-League appearances scheduled the remainder of the season to continue receiving repetitions and playing time in Phoenix’s system.

Goodwin entered the NBA after one season at Kentucky, where he averaged 14.1 points and 4.6 rebounds in 33 games.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...ie-Goodwin-Suitors-Keep-Him-At-Core-Of-Future

Interesting that others team did see the potential in him and have interest in him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That doesn't sound like it's much to Goodwin's displeasure, quite the opposite.

Steve

 

[PhxGametime]

If the Dragic rumors about him only returning if IT is gone are true, I'd Trade IT and give Goodwin minutes, at both guard positions. Ennis could be brought along slowly unless Dragic/Bledsoe are unavailable obviously. I'd prefer Goodwin playing 10-15 minutes at any of the 1-3 positions and keeping Green (who I'd hope would re-sign) at G/F - this year, than losing Dragic next year.

Goodwin may or not be Alec Burks type talent but he has nice size to play alongside either guard or all 3 together - needs minutes and could have Dragic/Bledsoe/Green back as 3 guard tandem that played so well, last year. Goodwin w/ Ish, Christmas like role...

I don't know if I'd add Plumlee in IT deal until it's looking def. like he demanded Trade but a backup 4 and/or Picks for IT could free up time for Goodwin, possibly Bullock or Warren depending on how well backup PF plays. Tucker's and Marcus' playing time is about ideal, as is.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't care much for the idea of popping Goodwin down to the Jam in short bursts - he needs to get experience playing a consistent role with a team. Heck, if he is ever needed here he can be recalled on short notice.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Dragic rumors about him only returning if IT is gone are true, I'd Trade IT and give Goodwin minutes, at both guard positions. Ennis could be brought along slowly unless Dragic/Bledsoe are unavailable obviously. I'd prefer Goodwin playing 10-15 minutes at any of the 1-3 positions and keeping Green (who I'd hope would re-sign) at G/F - this year, than losing Dragic next year.

Goodwin may or not be Alec Burks type talent but he has nice size to play alongside either guard or all 3 together - needs minutes and could have Dragic/Bledsoe/Green back as 3 guard tandem that played so well, last year. Goodwin w/ Ish, Christmas like role...

I don't know if I'd add Plumlee in IT deal until it's looking def. like he demanded Trade but a backup 4 and/or Picks for IT could free up time for Goodwin, possibly Bullock or Warren depending on how well backup PF plays. Tucker's and Marcus' playing time is about ideal, as is.

I would too but I don't know how true they are or if they were true at one time but things have changed. You can tell just watching these guys that they are getting along much better. Goran said they spent some time off the court together and that's really improved the chemistry. Anyway, I'd move Thomas now if it's necessary to keep Dragic content but I'd prefer to wait till season's end and use him to try and improve our draft position. I probably sound like a broken record but I'd really like to get Okafor and failing that, I'd really like to get Stanley Johnson.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

None of the teams with shots at Okafor and Johnson (NY, Phily, Minnesota, Orlando etc) would give up their draft pick to get Isaiah Thomas.

Not even if we paired our picks with IT.

Besides, is Okafor even a fit in PHX with Len already here?

 

[AzStevenCal]

None of the teams with shots at Okafor and Johnson (NY, Phily, Minnesota, Orlando etc) would give up their draft pick to get Isaiah Thomas.

Not even if we paired our picks with IT.

Besides, is Okafor even a fit in PHX with Len already here?

Yes Okafor is a fit and if he isn't, big deal. He's Greg Monroe meets Al Jefferson straight out of the college draft but with a Tim Duncan ceiling IMO. He doesn't have Tim's outside shot but there's no reason he can't add some range. We'd need to change our offense for him but I don't think we're married to this style anyway. AFAIC, without a stretch big man this offense is very limited anyway. As for Okafor, he's strong with a wide base, he runs the court very well, good lateral movement, has great hands, great footwork, a well developed back to the basket game, rebounds his position and has a high basketball IQ. I think he's the prototypical NBA power forward/center and like Duncan should still be a star when other big men are slowing down as their athleticism fades.

And I wasn't suggesting trading Thomas for the pick. I'd put Thomas, the twins, our pick, the Lakers pick and whatever else in play to land Okafor. I wouldn't go that high for Johnson but I'd certainly offer the Lakers pick and Thomas which might be enough for LA to make the deal if they're drafting early enough. Anyway, even if we can't get high enough for Okafor there are other intriguing prospects. Towns, for example, might actually be a better fit for us if we stay with the combo guard lineup.

Like I've said, hang on to our assets and depending on what happens with the Lakers pick, we might have a chance to land the star we need. I just don't think making the playoffs this season is worth giving up Thomas unless it's a move that also improves us for the future. And I'm not talking the "addition by subtraction" idea that comes up occasionally when people talk about moving IT.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

IMO we already have more than enough young guys that we need to develop and there isn't even enough minutes for them so no point in trying to get even more guys to warm the bench.

If there's a good deal which lands us a NBA vet for our draft picks, I'd do it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

IMO we already have more than enough young guys that we need to develop and there isn't even enough minutes for them so no point in trying to get even more guys to warm the bench.

If there's a good deal which lands us a NBA vet for our draft picks, I'd do it.

We have too many players whose ceiling is "good starter", we need to consolidate and improve. I'd like to swap out the twins, Thomas and Goodwin for example for an all star level power forward. I think we have a better chance of getting one in the draft then through trades but I'm open to either approach.

Steve

 

[hcsilla]

Yes Okafor is a fit and if he isn't, big deal. He's Greg Monroe meets Al Jefferson straight out of the college draft but with a Tim Duncan ceiling IMO. He doesn't have Tim's outside shot but there's no reason he can't add some range. We'd need to change our offense for him but I don't think we're married to this style anyway. AFAIC, without a stretch big man this offense is very limited anyway. As for Okafor, he's strong with a wide base, he runs the court very well, good lateral movement, has great hands, great footwork, a well developed back to the basket game, rebounds his position and has a high basketball IQ. I think he's the prototypical NBA power forward/center and like Duncan should still be a star when other big men are slowing down as their athleticism fades.

And I wasn't suggesting trading Thomas for the pick. I'd put Thomas, the twins, our pick, the Lakers pick and whatever else in play to land Okafor. I wouldn't go that high for Johnson but I'd certainly offer the Lakers pick and Thomas which might be enough for LA to make the deal if they're drafting early enough. Anyway, even if we can't get high enough for Okafor there are other intriguing prospects. Towns, for example, might actually be a better fit for us if we stay with the combo guard lineup.

Right now I see more of Al Jefferson in Okafor which is not bad at all, but Tim Duncan as a comparison seems a bit too optimistic to me.

I agree on both Towns and Johnson being good fits for the Suns.

Towns is tall, athletic and skilled, he can become a skinnier, taller and more polished version of Ibaka.
Johnson is an excellent prospect as well, reminds me of Larry Johnson.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Right now I see more of Al Jefferson in Okafor which is not bad at all, but Tim Duncan as a comparison seems a bit too optimistic to me.

I agree on both Towns and Johnson being good fits for the Suns.

Towns is tall, athletic and skilled, he can become a skinnier, taller and more polished version of Ibaka.
Johnson is an excellent prospect as well, reminds me of Larry Johnson.

Right now he's more Jefferson than anyone but he runs the court much better than Jefferson does. It might be a little generous to put his ceiling at Tim Duncan but his basketball IQ and passing should take him well beyond Al Jefferson.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Yes Okafor is a fit and if he isn't, big deal. He's Greg Monroe meets Al Jefferson straight out of the college draft but with a Tim Duncan ceiling IMO. He doesn't have Tim's outside shot but there's no reason he can't add some range. We'd need to change our offense for him but I don't think we're married to this style anyway. AFAIC, without a stretch big man this offense is very limited anyway. As for Okafor, he's strong with a wide base, he runs the court very well, good lateral movement, has great hands, great footwork, a well developed back to the basket game, rebounds his position and has a high basketball IQ. I think he's the prototypical NBA power forward/center and like Duncan should still be a star when other big men are slowing down as their athleticism fades.

And I wasn't suggesting trading Thomas for the pick. I'd put Thomas, the twins, our pick, the Lakers pick and whatever else in play to land Okafor. I wouldn't go that high for Johnson but I'd certainly offer the Lakers pick and Thomas which might be enough for LA to make the deal if they're drafting early enough. Anyway, even if we can't get high enough for Okafor there are other intriguing prospects. Towns, for example, might actually be a better fit for us if we stay with the combo guard lineup.

Like I've said, hang on to our assets and depending on what happens with the Lakers pick, we might have a chance to land the star we need. I just don't think making the playoffs this season is worth giving up Thomas unless it's a move that also improves us for the future. And I'm not talking the "addition by subtraction" idea that comes up occasionally when people talk about moving IT.

Steve

Okafor's been compared mostly to Al Jefferson. Guy with very limited athleticism, no defense and no range.

Guys like that are starting to get phased out of the NBA. One of the main reasons why nobody wants to trade for Jefferson despite him being available according to reports and why Monroe wasn't offered a big contract this summer despite the #s he put up.

Sullinger is another example, he's a guy who slipped to the end of the 1st rd due to defense, athleticism and range.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Okafor's been compared mostly to Al Jefferson. Guy with very limited athleticism, no defense and no range.

Guys like that are starting to get phased out of the NBA. One of the main reasons why nobody wants to trade for Jefferson despite him being available according to reports and why Monroe wasn't offered a big contract this summer despite the #s he put up.

Sullinger is another example, he's a guy who slipped to the end of the 1st rd due to defense, athleticism and range.

Watch him and tell me his ceiling is Al Jefferson. IMO he might step on to the NBA court as Al Jefferson in his prime but get back to me in 5 years and then tell me his type is being phased out. He has a lot more talent than Greg Monroe or Al Jefferson and while he's had the knock of not having range he's been showing over the past month that the experts are wrong. And, he's incredibly effective.

Okafor is a very high IQ player, much more like Duncan in this regard than any other player. I think his floor is late career Duncan and his ceiling isn't too far below Tim in his prime. IMO if he doesn't fit your scheme you should change your scheme. The Al Jefferson comparison came about long before Okafor stepped into the college scene and it's still being used mostly out of laziness. And Sullinger slipped primarily because of injury concerns.

Steve