Did the D-Backs Win the Justin Upton Trade?

[Dback Jon]

Which makes them just about the same as other outs despite the focus on them that you give, agree? BTW, who has the most outs for the record Jon?

So strikeouts don't matter?



And obviously, the guy with the lower OBP.

Would you agree that all outs are not equal?

 

[DWKB]

So strikeouts don't matter?

They matter just as much as GO, FO, and less than GIDP

And obviously, the guy with the lower OBP.

Who is that guy? For the record.

Would you agree that all outs are not equal?

I would but based on context, not type.

 

[Dback Jon]

They matter just as much as GO, FO, and less than GIDP




Who is that guy? For the record.



I would but based on context, not type.

agree less than GIDP. Context worse than the others, usually, because you can't advance on a K.

 

[DWKB]

agree less than GIDP. Context worse than the others, usually, because you can't advance on a K.

You can't advance on a soft GB out to the pitcher or the 3B either. You can't advance on a pop out. So you're not really correct there. You're complaining about the color of the car and not really looking at the engine with this focus on Ks IMO.

 

[BC867]

Actually I'd think not making outs is what it's all about for the offense. You don't make outs and the runs will follow.

I appreciate all the research you did and the various stats for the three players.

But I cannot agree with your point about not making outs is what it's all about for the offense. Or the runs will follow.

As much as I appreciate the players who move runners along, that is a much more passive approach than those who drive in the runs and score the runs over the course of 162 games.

Prado is also 3rd in runs scored on the D'backs as well as 2nd in RBI's, which I didn't previously mention.

Johnson is not among his team leaders. Upton is a disappointment. Only Prado is in the top 2 or 3. A role that Montero was supposed to fill, especially with all of the playing time he has gotten.

Granted, Hill would be up there if he hadn't been injured. But he was out injured and someone had to fill the voids. Prado has done that.

He has certainly been more valuable to the D'backs (not most, but more) than either Johnson or Upton has for the Braves.

 

[DWKB]

I appreciate all the research you did and the various stats for the three players.

But I cannot agree with your point about not making outs is what it's all about for the offense. Or the runs will follow.

As much as I appreciate the players who move runners along, that is a much more passive approach than those who drive in the runs and score the runs over the course of 162 games.

Not making outs is more than just moving runners along, its also driving them in. When you get an RBI, a high percentage of the time you also don't make an out. Just look at the number of SF that occur in a year vs total runs scored. 6% of all RBI are scored by SF leaving 94% left for those not making outs (No RBI for a GIDP) So yeah, not making outs, leads to both actual runs and the potential of future runs. It's the number one thing.

Prado is also 3rd in runs scored on the D'backs as well as 2nd in RBI's, which I didn't previously mention.

Johnson is not among his team leaders. Upton is a disappointment. Only Prado is in the top 2 or 3. A role that Montero was supposed to fill, especially with all of the playing time he has gotten.

Granted, Hill would be up there if he hadn't been injured. But he was out injured and someone had to fill the voids. Prado has done that.

He has certainly been more valuable to the D'backs (not most, but more) than either Johnson or Upton has for the Braves.

I'd would agree that what you say is factual, but I don't see the point in it. Prado was more valuable to his team than either Johnson or Upton because Prado was on a suckier team. That doesn't mean that Prado was more productive as a baseball player than either of them because he just wasn't. At the most favorable comparison's he was equal to one or the other which means that to the team ATL they got more production out of the two of them than the DBacks got out of Prado. On top of having a better team and getting more value out of the trade the Braves are going to the playoffs with HFA and the DBacks are going fishing. So while what you say is technically true, I'm not sure if it has any meaning in on field matters or front office matters. At least the fans like Prado better than Upton and Johnson combined. So we got that part of running a MLB team. Lovable mediocrity should be our new tagline.

 

[BC867]

So yeah, not making outs, leads to both actual runs and the potential of future runs. It's the number one thing.

'Leading to" runs and "the potential of future runs" are just that. The number one thing is the driving in and scoring of runs. Until then, it is potential runners left on base . . . which has been a major problem for the D'backs.

I'd would agree that what you say is factual, but I don't see the point in it. Prado was more valuable to his team than either Johnson or Upton because Prado was on a suckier team. That doesn't mean that Prado was more productive as a baseball player than either of them because he just wasn't.

But that's the whole point. We're Diamondbacks fans! And after the trade, Prado was more valuable to the D'backs than Johnson or Upton were to the Braves and, based on past performance, would have been to us.

 

[Lefty]

I don't mind that they traded Upton but Towers blew it big time by saying he was not looking to trade him but then the idiot trades him to Seattle, a team Justin has a no-trade to. Right there Towers lost any leverage he had and was forced to trade him and did not get the max in return.

If Towers would of never tried to make the Seattle trade and kept Upton during the offseason, he could of received much better players if he traded him during the season.

 

[DWKB]

'Leading to" runs and "the potential of future runs" are just that. The number one thing is the driving in and scoring of runs. Until then, it is potential runners left on base . . . which has been a major problem for the D'backs.

You know why you think driving in runs has been a problem for the DBacks? It's because they make out in those situations. What's the opposite of making outs and killing opportunities? Not making outs! It's like we're talking physics here and you think atoms are the building blocks of matter and I'm trying to show you particles.

But that's the whole point. We're Diamondbacks fans! And after the trade, Prado was more valuable to the D'backs than Johnson or Upton were to the Braves.

Yeah but Upton + Johnson would have been more valuable to the DBacks than Prado was to them. That's the point of the trade, to make your team better.

 

[BC867]

You know why you think driving in runs has been a problem for the DBacks? It's because they make out in those situations. What's the opposite of making outs and killing opportunities? Not making outs! It's like we're talking physics here and you think atoms are the building blocks of matter and I'm trying to show you particles.

Thank you, Professor. But I still believe that "not making outs" and "driving in runs" are two different things.

The only statistic on the scoreboard that counts at the end of the game is "R". Not "H" or "E" or even "LOB".

The team whose offense either drove in/scored more runs than the opponent or whose pitching staff held the opponent to less than they scored.

At this point, let's agree to disagree.

Yeah but Upton + Johnson would have been more valuable to the DBacks than Prado was to them. That's the point of the trade, to make your team better.

Two players' stats vs. one would, of course, be more beneficial.

But the saga of Justin Upton, as has been told many times on this board, goes beyond statistics. His bridges were burned and he had to go. For his sake and that of the D'backs.

Once again, let's agree to disagree.

My opinions are not intended to win a debate. It is what I believe. Perception is reality!

 

[DiamondBacks5117]

To early to tell but i am really liking the way Prado is playing lately!

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think the argument of not creating outs vs driving runs in comes down to the makeup the overall team. If your team doesn't have a lot of "clutch" hitters that drive runs in than it would be more valuable to that team to have guy driving in runs. Than if the team has a lot of guys that drive in runs it may be more important just get on base and give someone else a chance than to get out trying to be a "hero" if you will.

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[BC867]

I think the argument of not creating outs vs driving runs in comes down to the makeup the overall team. If your team doesn't have a lot of "clutch" hitters that drive runs in than it would be more valuable to that team to have guy driving in runs. Than if the team has a lot of guys that drive in runs it may be more important just get on base and give someone else a chance than to get out trying to be a "hero" if you will.

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Good presentation. Unfortunately, our D'backs fall into the category of teams without a lot of "clutch" hitters that drive in runs. Which is, of course, the perspective of ASFN posters.

 

[DWKB]

I think the argument of not creating outs vs driving runs in comes down to the makeup the overall team. If your team doesn't have a lot of "clutch" hitters that drive runs in than it would be more valuable to that team to have guy driving in runs. Than if the team has a lot of guys that drive in runs it may be more important just get on base and give someone else a chance than to get out trying to be a "hero" if you will.

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How many ways are there of driving in runs while creating an out? That's the point. Don't make outs and runs will be driven in.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I've been in the middle about this trade since it was completed. I don't think it was the best package they could have got (I preferred the ill fated Seattle one), but I also don't think it was the worst either. I like Prado, he is a stable player who does the little things very well and is a good player to have in your lineup.Drury, Delgado and Ahmed are players I like too.

I called it a B+ trade at the time, and I haven't changed as the season has passed. As for who won, I am gonna wait a few years to pass full judgement and declare a winner. If Prado remains steady and consistent (I see no reason why he won't), Delgado lives up to his vast potential, Ahmed becomes a solid 2nd baseman or SS and Drury becomes a 20-30 home run OF (where I see him winding up), can you really say Arizona LOST the deal? Even if they don't clearly win it, you can make deals (see Beckett for Ramirez) where both teams capitalize.