Don't we have to get the best CB we can in the draft?

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Teams like length at CB...that much is certain this day and age in the NFL. When you're a shorter CB...your fundamentals have to be spot-on...where as a taller CB can get away with a little more sloppy technique because they have the length to bat down balls that normally a smaller CB wouldn't be able to do. Still...especially with CB...great technique can over-come size limitations on a fairly consistent basis.

 

[Bodha]

Richard Sherman is big...so I am not sure how you discount him.

Jason Verrett, the guy who has played 24 of 48 games in his three year career?

Let's just go through it
AJ Bouye - 6'
Delvin Breaux - 6'1
Malcolm Butler - 5'11
Vontae Davis - 5'11
Stephon Gilmore - 6'1
Joe Haden - 5'11
Chris Harris - 5'10
Janoris Jenkins - 5'10
Trumaine Johnson - 6'2
Johnathan Joseph - 5'11
Josh Norman - 6'
Marcus Peters - 6'
Patrick Peterson - 6'1
Jalen Ramsey - 6'1
Darrelle Revis - 5'11
Xavier Rhodes - 6'1
Richard Sherman - 6'3
Darius Slay - 6'
Aqib Talib - 6'1
Desmond Trufant - 6'
Jason Verrett - 5'10

So, in that list, 3 guys come in at 5'10. Of those guys, Verrett ran a sub 4.4, and the rest ran mid 4.4's.

So, of the (roughly) top 21 CBs in the NFL, 3 are shorter than 5'11, and one of those three ran under 4.4, and all three under 4.5.

8 of the top 21 are under 6'. Less than 50%.

Can and likely are two different things. Over 50% of the top 21 CBs in the NFL are 6' tall or over, and 86% are 5'11 or over. I am guessing that size is not overrated after all.

Im not sure what your point is. Youve reiterated everything I already said. 5'10 and up. 4.60 and under. That criteria applies to almost every single guy you listed.

Size is overrated because here we are arguing over 5'11 vs 6'. An Inch like thats the determining variable in a star player. I got news, its not. Skill is. Bethel and Brandon Williams can jump out of the gym, and theyre both trash. You want to talk about the most common factor in all those guys? They are talented.

And to bring this back to the original point, you were questioning Desmond Kings measurables. The guy is 5'11 and runs mid 4.4s. He checks the boxes.Plenty of 5'11s, 4.4 guys on that list, so whats the problem?

 

[Mitch]

CB play is all about the feet and hips. Gotta have them to be a good CB.

 

[Harry]

Mitch is right about agility and that's part of the problem with Williams. He's reasonably strong and fast, but looks so far from even a college CB that I can't picture him working. He seems to lose a step whenever he turns. Scouts call that stiff hips. He has no perceptible backpedal. He bites on play action. He doesn't turn to play the ball. Keep in mind you can face guard in college but get flagged in the NFL. They tried to have him press but he routinely misses the receiver. Since he can't turn efficiently he's constantly gapped and chasing. He's often so badly beaten that even if he had ball skills and could turn he still couldn't knock down the pass. There's so much wrong I don't know how you'd ever fix it. If he's anything he's a safety.

 

[DVontel]

Mitch is right about agility and that's part of the problem with Williams. He's reasonably strong and fast, but looks so far from even a college CB that I can't picture him working. He seems to lose a step whenever he turns. Scouts call that stiff hips. He has no perceptible backpedal. He bites on play action. He doesn't turn to play the ball. Keep in mind you can face guard in college but get flagged in the NFL. They tried to have him press but he routinely misses the receiver. Since he can't turn efficiently he's constantly gapped and chasing. He's often so badly beaten that even if he had ball skills and could turn he still couldn't knock down the pass. There's so much wrong I don't know how you'd ever fix it. If he's anything he's a safety.

Really makes you what was going through Keim's mind drafting him that early or drafting him period.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

If he's anything he's a safety.

This. And I hope we try him as a safety instead of trying to develop another marginal DB like we did Bethel.

 

[Chopper0080]

Im not sure what your point is. Youve reiterated everything I already said. 5'10 and up. 4.60 and under. That criteria applies to almost every single guy you listed.

Size is overrated because here we are arguing over 5'11 vs 6'. An Inch like thats the determining variable in a star player. I got news, its not. Skill is. Bethel and Brandon Williams can jump out of the gym, and there both trash. You want to talk about the most common factor in all those guys? They are talented.

And to bring this back to the original point, you were questioning Desmond Kings measurables. The guy is 5'11 and runs mid 4.4s. He checks the boxes.Plenty of 5'11s, 4.4 guys on that list, so whats the problem?

We will see what King measures in at. 6' and 4.5 seems to be the most common measurable. My point is that size and speed are not overrated, they are pretty much prerequisites. Are there outliers? Of course there are. But there is a reason guys like Brandon Williams and Justin Bethel stick around the league while small CBs do not.

Mitch references feet and hips, and those are also important, but I haven't seen many 5'9 CBs with great feet and hips who are lock down CBs.

Overall, there are a bunch of traits that go into making a top level CB. Finding them all in one player is rare. What I see throughout the league is that guys with size ala Marcus Cooper find ways to stay on rosters despite poor hips and technique while players Javier Arenas find themselves out of the league. The difference between the two is size and speed which once again reiterates that those traits are far from overrated even if they are not the be all, end all.

 

[Chopper0080]

Mitch is right about agility and that's part of the problem with Williams. He's reasonably strong and fast, but looks so far from even a college CB that I can't picture him working. He seems to lose a step whenever he turns. Scouts call that stiff hips. He has no perceptible backpedal. He bites on play action. He doesn't turn to play the ball. Keep in mind you can face guard in college but get flagged in the NFL. They tried to have him press but he routinely misses the receiver. Since he can't turn efficiently he's constantly gapped and chasing. He's often so badly beaten that even if he had ball skills and could turn he still couldn't knock down the pass. There's so much wrong I don't know how you'd ever fix it. If he's anything he's a safety.

Brandon Williams biggest issues right now is that, as you mentioned, he struggles jamming wide receivers and he doesn't play the ball in the air particularly well. As his jam improves, he will put himself in better position to make plays and avoid penalties. They will give him every chance to be a CB, but he has a ways to go. Really makes you wonder why they felt he was worth a 3rd rounder.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Brandon Williams biggest issues right now is that, as you mentioned, he struggles jamming wide receivers and he doesn't play the ball in the air particularly well. As his jam improves, he will put himself in better position to make plays and avoid penalties. They will give him every chance to be a CB, but he has a ways to go. Really makes you wonder why they felt he was worth a 3rd rounder.

That's what I never understood. And since we didn't have our 2nd rounder...that made him our 2nd pick. I remember watching the draft, and all the "analysts" seemed dumbfounded with the pick. CB is the hardest position in the league..aside from QB...you don't take a very raw CB with your 2nd pick if you want to be successful. I'm sure he would've easily been there in the 5th...no question. Do the Cards scouts throw away game tape and only look at raw athleticism/measurables? Because that's the only excuse I can think of.

 

[JeffGollin]

Numbers and one-word descriptions used to describe a skill or attribute can sometimes be misleading.

Take height: Being 6 - 3 suggests a corner will have a bigger than usual catching radius when going up against larger receivers. But length also suggests size and, with it the heft to tackle in the open field or out-muscle big receivers to establish body position.

Also, how much can route recognition instincts coupled with an aggresive break on the ball compensate for lack of elite pure speed or mobility?

I'm guessing that there may be more than one way to skin a cat, and a DB can sometimes substitute instincts/smarts for quicks/mobility. Or vice versa? (i.e. does the Badger have elite agility, size or speed? Or does he make up for it with quick instincts/smarts? Are Bethel's pure athletic skills enough to make up for lapses in play recognition or technique)?

It can't be easy for a position-coach to be flexible or astute enough to recognize how a DB might be able to replace one deficient attribute with another.

Because very few players "are Patrick Peterson", I suspect that this dynamic comes into play more often than we fans think.

 

[DVontel]

What worries me is that they might not draft a CB in the draft because they're going to wait until Brandon Williams develop(I don't think he ever will. He's just TOO raw) & we'll end up missing out on this awesome CB class.

 

[Chopper0080]

What worries me is that they might not draft a CB in the draft because they're going to wait until Brandon Williams develop(I don't think he ever will. He's just TOO raw) & we'll end up missing out on this awesome CB class.

I do not believe they will make this mistake as the Cards have shown the willingness to add players from strong positional draft classes. I also believe the drop off in talent in round 3 for most other positions will almost dictate the Cards take a CB at that point.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

We need to draft 2 CBs at least, unless we sign a starter. I think if we looked back at all our recent games, it is that CB opposite PP that gives up the big plays, first downs, and TDs that beat us. It is not hard to see a weakness so glaring. Every game you watch on TV you see a QB taking advantage of a weak or rookie CB. It isn't rocket science.

 

[Harry]

I don't see Williams developing. He looked the same in the last game as he did in game 1. Nearly a season of coaching should produce some improvement. I criticized the pick when they made it and it looks no better now. It's a flat out miss!

 

[Mitch]

We need to draft 2 CBs at least, unless we sign a starter. I think if we looked back at all our recent games, it is that CB opposite PP that gives up the big plays, first downs, and TDs that beat us. It is not hard to see a weakness so glaring. Every game you watch on TV you see a QB taking advantage of a weak or rookie CB. It isn't rocket science.

We drafted 2 CBs last year (Williams, Miller)...plus Elie Bouka who SK and the coaches have raved about, should be 100% healthy next year. The coaches are very high on Trevon Hartfield. They also like Ronald Zamort.

The young talent at CB is already there.

We need a veteran UFA CB while the young talent matures and develops.

 

[TheCardFan]

The young talent at CB is already there.

We need a veteran UFA CB while the young talent matures and develops.

We can't count on those guys to develop for next year. If one of them does...its a major bonus. If the FO believes that some of those guys can develop down the road, then we probably won't draft CB's in the middle/late rounds but if a true #1 (#2 for us) is available in Rd 1...you take them.

 

[Ohcrap75]

Just a quick note. Mia vs WV starts in a few minutes and there is a big corner named Rasul Douglass that I believe could fly up draft boards as it nears. 6-2 203 and has 8 Int's this year. He would make for a great 3rd round pick!

 

[Mitch]

I don't see Williams developing. He looked the same in the last game as he did in game 1. Nearly a season of coaching should produce some improvement. I criticized the pick when they made it and it looks no better now. It's a flat out miss!

While I have been sensing the same thing, a year's time could make a world of difference, especially considering BW's work ethic and desire to succeed.

 

[cardncubfan]

I don't see Williams developing. He looked the same in the last game as he did in game 1. Nearly a season of coaching should produce some improvement. I criticized the pick when they made it and it looks no better now. It's a flat out miss!

I re-watched the game yesterday & I seen a big improvement with Williams. He did give up a couple of plays but he was right there on many more. There was one td (I forget who) that the ball was just placed in perfect position where only the wr could get to it. It didn't matter if PP was on the guy nobody was defending it. The other 2 I seen BW would have broke up the pass if he would have just turned around. That is what he needs to work on. Seeing the receivers eyes & anticipating the ball is coming his way so he can turn & look for the ball. I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

 

[juza76]

I'll

We drafted 2 CBs last year (Williams, Miller)...plus Elie Bouka who SK and the coaches have raved about, should be 100% healthy next year. The coaches are very high on Trevon Hartfield. They also like Ronald Zamort.

The young talent at CB is already there.

We need a veteran UFA CB while the young talent matures and develops.

Mitch cb is one of the most important position
How can u start the season with those guys who has almost zero experience
If the veteran get injured then u play miller,zamort,hartfield bouka?

 

[b8rtm8nn]

While I have been sensing the same thing, a year's time could make a world of difference, especially considering BW's work ethic and desire to succeed.

I agree with Harry on this one - you know what the Chiefs did with their CB that had tight hips? Made him a free safety

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/eric-murray?id=2555173

 

[sinsay]

Adoree Jackson can fill a hand of fill of needs for the cards and should be available with there 1st pick.

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The 2016 Jim Thorpe award winner. He makes play all over the field has excellent ball skills.

He has the hands of a WR and already has an understanding of routes and how a WR will try to go open due to his skills and playing time at WR.

ILB Can be found in later rounds but an athlete like Jackson is rare and all the more valuable for the Cards due to him being a CB which is a position of need.

I also like the LB from VANDY. He might turn into a dominant player but Adoree has the potential to be the best CB in the game.

He is also a game changer in special teams on PR/KR one of the best in the nation which may due wonders for the Cards low ranking special teams.

Trade up in the 2nd and grab Watson.