Don't we have to get the best CB we can in the draft?

[DVontel]

Draft is only one of several options. Don't discount the development of some of the corners we've got (Include some of the guys who were injured and you've got a pretty long line of corners).

Key variable is coachability and speed along the learning curve.

Take #34 Miller for example. Never played safety at all. Comes in and does pretty freakin' good. B Williams - comparing his first game with now - is miles ahead of where he was earlier. Even Bethel had his good moments.

Plus - you never know which FA might want to sign with us.

Is he really?

 

[Russ Smith]

Mosley, Dix, & Hightower were just Pro-Bowlers last year & had a good amount of All-Pro votes last year. Marcel Dareus is pretty damn good, too. I watch all of them a lot. Like I said, I would only stay away from Alabama CBs.

I'd stay the hell away from USC players. Especially from offense. I can't even think of an at least average USC player outside of Clay Matthews.

I still say it'll take him a bit but Adoree Jackson will be a good pro player.

Curious what Harry thinks of him?

 

[Russ Smith]

Is he really?

Yeah everytime I saw him he was miles behind chasing a wide open guy. I don't get why people are sayign Bethel looked better either. i saw him twice get badly beaten only to get bailed out by a bad throw, and another play where he was badly beaten but the pass rush forced a short throw.

Bethel can't play the ball in the air with his back to the QB, I think he's a S which is ironically what he was when we drafted him.

I'm not sure what Brandon Williams is.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Bethel can't play the ball in the air with his back to the QB, I think he's a S which is ironically what he was when we drafted him.

I'm not sure what Brandon Williams is.

Bethel actually played decent in the slot, so as a ST ace and backup corner/CB4 - I have no issue with him staying a CB. I just don't think he is starting material at any position mentally (not a bad thing, just play to his strengths and he will continue to go to pro bowls)

I want to see B Williams as a safety this next game if Cooper returns. I think he can actually do well there... and I don't want us to waste 3 years with Williams at CB like we did with Bethel.

 

[TheCardFan]

I still say it'll take him a bit but Adoree Jackson will be a good pro player.

Curious what Harry thinks of him?

I think Adoree is slightly better than Brandon Williams. His real value is versatility. He is exceptional as a return guy and I think he is a better weapon on offense than player on D.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I agree with Jeff. I think Brandon Williams has good coverage skills but still has a lot to lean technique-wise. The two times he was beaten badly were on press coverage where he was beaten at the LOS.

I don't know if he'll turn out good, or not, but the skill set is there and he seems to be a hard worker along with a good student.

 

[Harry]

Adoree is pegged to go early second round by most scouts. He's one of those guys who could jump into round 1 with a great combine. He has it all except maybe strength. He's fast and could be a big time returner. He has good ball skills. Ross beat him in the Washington game, but he got the last laugh with the game ending interception. It's funny because corners are usually in short supply but this year has the best pool I've seen in 50 years! That's why the Cards shouldn't feel pressured to take one in the first, especially with PP already on the roster.

 

[Harry]

GH, my wife is an FSU grad, so I've seen all of Cook's games. I'm not sure what you think is backwards. He was often on the sidelines at critical times with hamstring strains. It was worse in 2014 than 2015, but 2016 was the first season he didn't miss time. Players with that history seem to have more NFL troubles even with better hydration.

 

[Russ Smith]

Adoree is pegged to go early second round by most scouts. He's one of those guys who could jump into round 1 with a great combine. He has it all except maybe strength. He's fast and could be a big time returner. He has good ball skills. Ross beat him in the Washington game, but he got the last laugh with the game ending interception. It's funny because corners are usually in short supply but this year has the best pool I've seen in 50 years! That's why the Cards shouldn't feel pressured to take one in the first, especially with PP already on the roster.

yeah from what you hear what the Scouts don't like about Adoree is they don't think he loves football, he wants to do other things, track(long jump) might want to be an actor etc. So in school he's done track, played offense and returned kicks, the feeling among NFL scouts is if we use a high pick on him we want him focused. We want him to forget about track(remember he tried to qualify for the Olympics in long jump), we want him to forget about offense we just want him to play CB and be a return guy.

Which is why I say Peterson would be a great mentor, he went through the same thing save the long jump stuff coming out of HS and has developed into a great player. I don't think Adoree will be that good but I think he can be the type of "other" CB you want opposite PP, a guy with good hands who is more than willing to jump routes if people are throwing at him, and has the makeup speed you need in a defense where there often isn't deep safety help.

I also think it cant' be stated enough the coaching changes at USC have impacted the development of lots of players there, add in the time he's missed for track and he's a guy with more upside than people realize IMO.

 

[TheCardFan]

If Adoree didn't return punts/kicks...would we still be talking about him as a 1st or 2nd round CB? I think that exceptional skill he has returning the ball skews the rating of him overall. Terrific return man but a project at CB just like Brandon Williams. His best position is a Tavon Austin type role as a WR and KR/PR.

I think his Notre Dame game is a pretty solid representation of what type of player he will be:

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If we are going CB in round 1, I want another shut down guy like PP. Think about what that would do for our pass rush.

 

[Harry]

Adoree will never be a physical corner. Russ is right that 21 should be the perfect mentor. PP has much better technique. I don't think there's anyway the Cards take him in round 1 unless they trade down, which I don't foresee. Certainly his return skills elevate his status and rightly so. I think he's still a round 2 choice without the special teams value, but that would drop him down.

 

[Chopper0080]

As Harry stated, a great year for CB in the draft.

Three that haven't gotten much love in this thread but who are intriguing.

Kevin King - Washington
Chidode Awuzie - Colorado
Damontae Kazee - San Diego St (a nickel CB, but great idea to defend the interior slot threats while allowing Peterson to stay outside)

All three of these guys are probably round 2-4 players, but should be able to contribute right away.

Sidney Jones hasn't been mentioned either, but he is more of a 1st rounder option if we traded back.

 

[TheCardFan]

As Harry stated, a great year for CB in the draft.

Sidney Jones hasn't been mentioned either, but he is more of a 1st rounder option if we traded back.

I would like to add Marshon Lattimore from Ohio State...by far the best press/cover corner I have watched this year. Any opinions from others on the board (OSU fans)?

 

[Bodha]

Im a big Desmond King fan. While these other guys have been big and flashy, have you really heard of them prior to this season? For most of them, no. They were the backups to the last years top CBs, and now they are getting their shots. They killed it this year, but ultimately are 1 year wonders.

Desmond King, IMO by far, is the most consistent. Guy is a senior. Hes put up the same, steady, consistent star level CB play for 4 years. Guy has the stats. He has the awards (2015 Thorpe award for best DB in college). But that longevity of performance is why hes my #1 CB.

 

[Mitch]

I think SK needs to sign a good-cover veteran UFA CB. Rookie CBs need time to develop. Rushing them along is risky. Either that or start Tyrann Mathieu at RCB in the base 34 and switch him to the slot on passing downs when the matchups warrant it.

I am not sold on Marcus Cooper. It would have been intriguing to see what Mike Jenkins would have done had he stayed healthy.

Prince Amakumara is a UFA this year. I think he could take his game to the next level in AZ, and he shouldn't be too pricey.

 

[Chopper0080]

Im a big Desmond King fan. While these other guys have been big and flashy, have you really heard of them prior to this season? For most of them, no. They were the backups to the last years top CBs, and now they are getting their shots. They killed it this year, but ultimately are 1 year wonders.

Desmond King, IMO by far, is the most consistent. Guy is a senior. Hes put up the same, steady, consistent star level CB play for 4 years. Guy has the stats. He has the awards (2015 Thorpe award for best DB in college). But that longevity of performance is why hes my #1 CB.

My biggest hesitation with King is his athleticism and size. I just don't see him having the size and athleticism to be a difference maker in the NFL. I am on board in round 2, but I can't see him as a 1st rounder.

 

[WildBB]

I am not saying the drafting a CB early in the draft is a bad idea, and I really do not have a strong opinion on the draft yet.

That being said, any player drafted is a project. Just as big a risk as any free agent or bigger.

I think free agency has the POTENTIAL to produce a good player that will fit what the Cardinals need.

Yes they need to bring in a competent resourceful vet. Someone who'll battle for every ball.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree with Jeff. I think Brandon Williams has good coverage skills but still has a lot to lean technique-wise. The two times he was beaten badly were on press coverage where he was beaten at the LOS.

I don't know if he'll turn out good, or not, but the skill set is there and he seems to be a hard worker along with a good student.

His progress will be a good indicator of how good of teachers our DB coaches are.

 

[Bodha]

My biggest hesitation with King is his athleticism and size. I just don't see him having the size and athleticism to be a difference maker in the NFL. I am on board in round 2, but I can't see him as a 1st rounder.

I didnt mean to say we take him 1st round, #11 overall or anything. I just meant hes my favorite CB in the draft. 2nd round would be a terrific pick for him.

And as far as size/speed, thats super overrated IMO. At his current size/speed, hes been one of the top CBs in the nation for 4 years. Hes proven his abilities.

And even at the next level where guys are bigger and faster, 4.56 Richard Sherman ran down 4.28 JJ Nelson. It really is negligible. His speed, size is perfectly adequate.

 

[DVontel]

I think SK needs to sign a good-cover veteran UFA CB. Rookie CBs need time to develop. Rushing them along is risky. Either that or start Tyrann Mathieu at RCB in the base 34 and switch him to the slot on passing downs when the matchups warrant it.

I am not sold on Marcus Cooper. It would have been intriguing to see what Mike Jenkins would have done had he stayed healthy.

Prince Amakumara is a UFA this year. I think he could take his game to the next level in AZ, and he shouldn't be too pricey.

He has been bad for years.

 

[Chopper0080]

I didnt mean to say we take him 1st round, #11 overall or anything. I just meant hes my favorite CB in the draft. 2nd round would be a terrific pick for him.

And as far as size/speed, thats super overrated IMO. At his current size/speed, hes been one of the top CBs in the nation for 4 years. Hes proven his abilities.

And even at the next level where guys are bigger and faster, 4.56 Richard Sherman ran down 4.28 JJ Nelson. It really is negligible. His speed, size is perfectly adequate.

You are the first person who I have ever heard say that size and speed are overrated for CBs. For CBs you can almost say that players with good size and speed can be successful despite having terrible fundamentals. I can't think one one top end CB currently that doesn't have great size or speed.

 

[Bodha]

You are the first person who I have ever heard say that size and speed are overrated for CBs. For CBs you can almost say that players with good size and speed can be successful despite having terrible fundamentals. I can't think one one top end CB currently that doesn't have great size or speed.

It 100% is. And I can prove it:

Speed:
On Saturday, 4.58 Richard Sherman ran down 4.28 JJ Nelson. That seems strange until you realize the difference in hundreths of a second are so completely negligible when you factor in that football is not played on a running track. If you run a sub 4.6, then you are fast enough to be a starting CB in the NFL.

Height:
This one drives me up the wall. Let me ask you, is every catch in the NFL a rebound? Meaning the WR had to climb the ladder? No. 99% of the time its a catch ranging between the knees and shoulders. Its doesnt matter if the WR is 6'6 Calvin Johnson, anywhere in that strike range, the CB can also reach the ball. Jason Verrett. Only 5'10. Arguably a top 6 CB in the NFL. Why? Because balls arent thrown 3 feet above his head. They are thrown into the WRs body where the CB can also reach all of them. The 1 out of 1,000 that are a jump ball? Fine. You win. But are we really looking at CBs for the 1% of catches, or 99% of catches? 5'10 is perfectly fine for a CB.


Now looking specifically at Desmond King, we're not sure what his numbers will be, but we can reasonable expect 5'11 and the 4.45 range. That is perfectly fine for an elite CB in the NFL. Because the bottom line is that its about technique and CB IQ. Desmond has loads of both.

As long as you reach a minimum bar for the physical measurements, then

 

[wit3card]

It 100% is. And I can prove it:

Speed:
On Saturday, 4.58 Richard Sherman ran down 4.28 JJ Nelson. That seems strange until you realize the difference in hundreths of a second are so completely negligible when you factor in that football is not played on a running track. If you run a sub 4.6, then you are fast enough to be a starting CB in the NFL.

Height:
This one drives me up the wall. Let me ask you, is every catch in the NFL a rebound? Meaning the WR had to climb the ladder? No. 99% of the time its a catch ranging between the knees and shoulders. Its doesnt matter if the WR is 6'6 Calvin Johnson, anywhere in that strike range, the CB can also reach the ball. Jason Verrett. Only 5'10. Arguably a top 6 CB in the NFL. Why? Because balls arent thrown 3 feet above his head. They are thrown into the WRs body where the CB can also reach all of them. The 1 out of 1,000 that are a jump ball? Fine. You win. But are we really looking at CBs for the 1% of catches, or 99% of catches? 5'10 is perfectly fine for a CB.


Now looking specifically at Desmond King, we're not sure what his numbers will be, but we can reasonable expect 5'11 and the 4.45 range. That is perfectly fine for an elite CB in the NFL. Because the bottom line is that its about technique and CB IQ. Desmond has loads of both.

As long as you reach a minimum bar for the physical measurements, then

And you have to add, that we already have a big #1 CB that takes the opponent #1 WR away. If the #2 is as good as the #1 PP21 takes the bigger guy ... so no problem whatsoever. 5'11 is fine for a CB ... if you sniff an elite one out of the draft ... great, but we have other holes to fill too ... ILB, DE, NT/DT, C, RG, QBoF, and maybe even FS/SS or WR or TE. We need to see which player falls to us and what player is the best.

Maybe one out of this position will be a "steal" CB, ILB, DE, NT/DE, RG, QBoF

 

[TJ]

Of course it was serious. Todd Gurley went #10 and he's great but his problem is they load the box because he's the only thing they have to worry about. Fournette by all accounts is one of the best RB prospects in recent memory and you don't pass on a special talent especially at a position that gets hurt as often as they do

And yes we need a new kicker special teams have cost us 4 games this year and Can't has just become unreliable

We have arguably the best RB in the league. We don't need Fournette. At 10-15, the team should have options, including trading down and acquiring more picks. ILB, WR, CB2, and QBoF come well before RB. Plus, you may score on a guy like Pumphrey in the 5th or 6th round, who'd make a great #2 option behind DJ.

As for kickers, I agree that we need competition for Catanzaro next season, but not in the 3rd round. Aguayo is proof that there's not a lot of difference, if any, between drafting a kicker during the 2nd day and picking one up after the draft.

 

[Chopper0080]

It 100% is. And I can prove it:

Speed:
On Saturday, 4.58 Richard Sherman ran down 4.28 JJ Nelson. That seems strange until you realize the difference in hundreths of a second are so completely negligible when you factor in that football is not played on a running track. If you run a sub 4.6, then you are fast enough to be a starting CB in the NFL.

Height:
This one drives me up the wall. Let me ask you, is every catch in the NFL a rebound? Meaning the WR had to climb the ladder? No. 99% of the time its a catch ranging between the knees and shoulders. Its doesnt matter if the WR is 6'6 Calvin Johnson, anywhere in that strike range, the CB can also reach the ball. Jason Verrett. Only 5'10. Arguably a top 6 CB in the NFL. Why? Because balls arent thrown 3 feet above his head. They are thrown into the WRs body where the CB can also reach all of them. The 1 out of 1,000 that are a jump ball? Fine. You win. But are we really looking at CBs for the 1% of catches, or 99% of catches? 5'10 is perfectly fine for a CB.


Now looking specifically at Desmond King, we're not sure what his numbers will be, but we can reasonable expect 5'11 and the 4.45 range. That is perfectly fine for an elite CB in the NFL. Because the bottom line is that its about technique and CB IQ. Desmond has loads of both.

As long as you reach a minimum bar for the physical measurements, then

Richard Sherman is big...so I am not sure how you discount him.

Jason Verrett, the guy who has played 24 of 48 games in his three year career?

Let's just go through it
AJ Bouye - 6'
Delvin Breaux - 6'1
Malcolm Butler - 5'11
Vontae Davis - 5'11
Stephon Gilmore - 6'1
Joe Haden - 5'11
Chris Harris - 5'10
Janoris Jenkins - 5'10
Trumaine Johnson - 6'2
Johnathan Joseph - 5'11
Josh Norman - 6'
Marcus Peters - 6'
Patrick Peterson - 6'1
Jalen Ramsey - 6'1
Darrelle Revis - 5'11
Xavier Rhodes - 6'1
Richard Sherman - 6'3
Darius Slay - 6'
Aqib Talib - 6'1
Desmond Trufant - 6'
Jason Verrett - 5'10

So, in that list, 3 guys come in at 5'10. Of those guys, Verrett ran a sub 4.4, and the rest ran mid 4.4's.

So, of the (roughly) top 21 CBs in the NFL, 3 are shorter than 5'11, and one of those three ran under 4.4, and all three under 4.5.

8 of the top 21 are under 6'. Less than 50%.

Can and likely are two different things. Over 50% of the top 21 CBs in the NFL are 6' tall or over, and 86% are 5'11 or over. I am guessing that size is not overrated after all.