Draft grades

[Chaplin]

I guess that depends on what you call a future? A future in mediocrity? A future of continuing the Suns legacy of one of the most winning franchise in all of sports without a title?

Steve, do you really consider that a future? Maybe some do and that's fair but anything short of a title is a failure to me.

By the way statistically since the Suns drafted 14, 18 and 27 it breaks down statistically like this:

• 14th pick (25% chance of star, 20% solid player, 25% role player, 10% bench warmer, 20% bust)
• 18th Pick (5% chance of star, 15% chance of a solid player, 25% Role Player, 40% chance of a bench warmer, 15% chance of a bust).
• 27th Pick (5% chance of star, 5% solid player, 25% role player, 60% bench warmer, 5% bust)

This is why the Suns need to draft higher to have a shot statistically of landing a franchise player.

Ugh, this tanking argument is so old. IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[JS22]

I swear some people would be happier if the Suns won 20 games a year.

 

[JS22]

Yea the Suns got close to the playoffs last season. But what exactly did that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. You don't see superstars saying "Oh hey the Suns almost made playoffs last season and have a lot of cap space and have a bunch of absolutely pathetic draft picks!! Lets go play for them!!".

This pretty much explains my previous post.

 

[JS22]

Not a chance. The cores of the Thunder and Rockets are both plenty young. Cleveland now has three #1 overall picks on their roster. Philadelphia has two potential franchise centers in waiting, plus another high lottery pick next summer. The Pelicans have the most-likely next dominant player on their roster. Several other teams have young talents in waiting who are a clear notch ahead of Dragic, Bledsoe, or anyone else in Phoenix. The Suns would probably be above average on a "futures" list, but not far above -- maybe 10th-12th.

Come on. Philly? Really? You lost me there.

 

[sunsfan88]

I swear some people would be happier if the Suns won 20 games a year.

No some people would be happier if we had a potential franchise player on our team instead of guys like Earl Clark, Marcus Morris, Kendall Marshall and now TJ Warren.

I'm not saying #14 picks are garbage players. I'm saying some of us here want to have a player that we can say "Hey look, this kid might be our future. We can build around this kid".

I don't give a (explicit) if we have to win 2 games or 200 games in order to get a player with that potential. Whatever it takes.

 

[JS22]

No some people would be happier if we had a potential franchise player on our team instead of guys like Earl Clark, Marcus Morris, Kendall Marshall and now TJ Warren.

I'm not saying #14 picks are garbage players. I'm saying some of us here want to have a player that we can say "Hey look, this kid might be our future. We can build around this kid".

I don't give a (explicit) if we have to win 2 games or 200 games in order to get a player with that potential. Whatever it takes.

So you'd rather sit through a season of misery and hope that the lottery balls bounce your way? Then hope that the player pans out? Sounds fun. Perhaps you should become a Sixers fan.

Me? I'll enjoy watching the Suns win as many games as possible and worry about the draft when it comes.

The Suns would have been #3 in the East. It's not like they were a middle of the road "meh" time like they were under Blanks. They've got a bunch of young players that are fun to watch and surprised the entire league last year. I'm not sure how anyone would rather they be terrible so they can cross their fingers in the lottery.

 

[Superbone]

No thanks on the loser mentality.

 

[Chaplin]

No thanks on the loser mentality.

+1

And I'm sure, you know, the players and coaches would agree with that.

 

[PhxGametime]

I'm guessing T.J. Warren will impress in 2-3 years similar to Markieff's improvement, and there will much more appreciation of Pick on message boards. I didn't like Markieff pick at time but he's been impressive and Warren looks better athletically coming into the NBA. More prolific scorer, too.

I tend to go for athleticism, size, and defensive potential in NBA Prospects but all 3 Draft Picks in 1st Round look like solid players, while athleticism not nearly as bad as one would assume. I was hoping for PG upgrade to possibly replace Ish Smith, Euro stash player in Draft (though he looks near ready), and a SF that can score with size to defend Star SF's in Offseason. So while without checking 3 for 3 yet (remains to be seen) - I feel the Suns aren't locked into one Position for FA/Trade addition.

With Plumlee, Len, Markieff, Marcus, Warren, Tucker, Green, Goodwin, Dragic, Bledsoe, and Ennis: the Suns could add possibly a Star PF, C, or SF; via FA/Trade and have depth across board. Three players currently can play C; four at PF; five at SF; five at SG; and four at PG with multi-position players gives the Suns options in Front-court addition.

 

[sunsfan88]

So you'd rather sit through a season of misery and hope that the lottery balls bounce your way? Then hope that the player pans out? Sounds fun. Perhaps you should become a Sixers fan.

Me? I'll enjoy watching the Suns win as many games as possible and worry about the draft when it comes.

The Suns would have been #3 in the East. It's not like they were a middle of the road "meh" time like they were under Blanks. They've got a bunch of young players that are fun to watch and surprised the entire league last year. I'm not sure how anyone would rather they be terrible so they can cross their fingers in the lottery.

Its not about them being terrible. Its about them winning a championship. And you need superstar caliber players to win a championship. And to get superstar calibers player, you need to get top selections more often than not. Whether that's through trades or sucking or whatever.

What your telling me is that you care more about the Suns getting 48 or 50 wins more so than them winning a championship.

I'll give you two scenarios, pick which one you want.

A) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 2 championships and then suck really bad for the rest of the 8 years.

OR

B) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 0 championships however, they are a playoff team every season.

I already know that you will pick scenario B.

 

[PhxGametime]

I'd like a Championship but watching any of my Teams suck for 8 years would be brutal. Mercury and Wildcats have won Basketball Championships but my Love for Basketball started attending Suns games; winning it all would be great gift but winning it all just to shut up lakers, spurs fans etc. or being a disaster of Team for 8-10 years wouldn't be as gratifying as I'd like.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its not about them being terrible. Its about them winning a championship. And you need superstar caliber players to win a championship. And to get superstar calibers player, you need to get top selections more often than not. Whether that's through trades or sucking or whatever.

What your telling me is that you care more about the Suns getting 48 or 50 wins more so than them winning a championship.

I'll give you two scenarios, pick which one you want.

A) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 2 championships and then suck really bad for the rest of the 8 years.

OR

B) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 0 championships however, they are a playoff team every season.

I already know that you will pick scenario B.

Show us proof that tanking (or just being horrible) increases your likelihood of winning it all. AFAIC, we're building towards a championship.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Come on. Philly? Really? You lost me there.

Sure. Do you really think that both Embiid and Noel are going to be busts? They were both likely #1 overall picks if healthy. The rest of their roster is hopeless, but that's the point.

 

[Covert Rain]

Its not about them being terrible. Its about them winning a championship. And you need superstar caliber players to win a championship. And to get superstar calibers player, you need to get top selections more often than not. Whether that's through trades or sucking or whatever.

What your telling me is that you care more about the Suns getting 48 or 50 wins more so than them winning a championship.

I'll give you two scenarios, pick which one you want.

A) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 2 championships and then suck really bad for the rest of the 8 years.

OR

B) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 0 championships however, they are a playoff team every season.

I already know that you will pick scenario B.

Give me crappy teams that end up in the top 5 of the lottery, at least have a shot at a franchise guy and a possible title every 10 years versus what we have going now.

Anything is better than 0-46.

For the love of God....enough is enough. Fun teams? Mediocrity? Screw that. It's a growing embarrassment the longer it goes on. I love this team too much to see this streak continue. I actually considered selling my soul to the Devil to end this streak but I already gave it up to the ASFN Gods.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Sure. Do you really think that both Embiid and Noel are going to be busts? They were both likely #1 overall picks if healthy. The rest of their roster is hopeless, but that's the point.

Both big men with serious injury problems. You have to get Philly credit, they roll the dice. They could have David Robinson and Tim Duncan, or they could have Greg Oden and Daugherty.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its not about them being terrible. Its about them winning a championship. And you need superstar caliber players to win a championship. And to get superstar calibers player, you need to get top selections more often than not. Whether that's through trades or sucking or whatever.

What your telling me is that you care more about the Suns getting 48 or 50 wins more so than them winning a championship.

I'll give you two scenarios, pick which one you want.

A) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 2 championships and then suck really bad for the rest of the 8 years.

OR

B) Throughout the next 10 years, the Suns win 0 championships however, they are a playoff team every season.

I already know that you will pick scenario B.

I'm guessing this is the one you would choose? Win the championship two years in a row and then be horrible each of the next 8 years? There are a lot of fans that would agree with you and I can't say they're wrong. I'd go the other way if I were deciding on a future timeline but if I were looking back at a 10 year stretch, I'd probably choose the 2 titles. But ask yourself this, would your scenario be good for this organization? How long would fans still attend games? This isn't the East Coast, Western fans run for the hills when their team fails to excite them. What would the future look like after 8 straight years of being horrible? Would free agents want to play there? Would we even be able to hang on to the franchise with such an extended run of poor basketball and invisible support?

I love watching the game of basketball. But there is no way in the world that I would enjoy watching 8 straight years of horrible basketball if I knew about it in advance. If I were the kind of fan that rarely watched the games and cared mostly about a title for some reason (some unfathomable reason AFAIC) then that scenario would be fine. But for fans that actually want to watch the games, I think the vast majority would prefer a competitive team regardless of end-of-season results.

I want us to win a title but in the end, I don't place very much importance on it. It's far more important to me that they build towards becoming a team that can compete for the championship. Winning it all involves too much luck for that to be the only measurement of success IMO.

I want the title but I want to enjoy the journey too. That title won't keep me warm at night. It doesn't keep Kings fans warm at night either. Oh sure, some of them sit around and say well at least we won a title back in 1951 when we were the KC Royals so the last 8 years of lousy basketball are like, totally cool dude. Hawks fans don't console themselves through the lean years just because they beat the Celtics 50 some years ago. And the last 30+ years of mediocrity and worse for the Wizards isn't wiped away by their championship over Seattle in 1978.

I think it's understandable to be frustrated by our lack of title success. I don't question anyone that says "just do what it takes, I want a title". But people that say they don't care about anything BUT a title. Well, I don't see how you can be a fan of a team and really mean it when you make that statement. I think that would make you a fan of titles not a fan of a team. I guess there is nothing wrong with being a fan of titles but I really believe you should have your own message board.

If you don't watch the team, if you don't want to watch the team, if you don't care who wins on any given night and all you truly care about is whether or not they just won a title then you are not a Suns fan IMO. There should be a separate board for that group of "fans". And I'm not naming names or putting anyone in that group, I'm just saying....

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm guessing this is the one you would choose? Win the championship two years in a row and then be horrible each of the next 8 years? There are a lot of fans that would agree with you and I can't say they're wrong. I'd go the other way if I were deciding on a future timeline but if I were looking back at a 10 year stretch, I'd probably choose the 2 titles. But ask yourself this, would your scenario be good for this organization? How long would fans still attend games? This isn't the East Coast, Western fans run for the hills when their team fails to excite them. What would the future look like after 8 straight years of being horrible? Would free agents want to play there? Would we even be able to hang on to the franchise with such an extended run of poor basketball and invisible support?

I love watching the game of basketball. But there is no way in the world that I would enjoy watching 8 straight years of horrible basketball if I knew about it in advance. If I were the kind of fan that rarely watched the games and cared mostly about a title for some reason (some unfathomable reason AFAIC) then that scenario would be fine. But for fans that actually want to watch the games, I think the vast majority would prefer a competitive team regardless of end-of-season results.

I want us to win a title but in the end, I don't place very much importance on it. It's far more important to me that they build towards becoming a team that can compete for the championship. Winning it all involves too much luck for that to be the only measurement of success IMO.

I want the title but I want to enjoy the journey too. That title won't keep me warm at night. It doesn't keep Kings fans warm at night either. Oh sure, some of them sit around and say well at least we won a title back in 1951 when we were the KC Royals so the last 8 years of lousy basketball are like, totally cool dude. Hawks fans don't console themselves through the lean years just because they beat the Celtics 50 some years ago. And the last 30+ years of mediocrity and worse for the Wizards isn't wiped away by their championship over Seattle in 1978.

I think it's understandable to be frustrated by our lack of title success. I don't question anyone that says "just do what it takes, I want a title". But people that say they don't care about anything BUT a title. Well, I don't see how you can be a fan of a team and really mean it when you make that statement. I think that would make you a fan of titles not a fan of a team. I guess there is nothing wrong with being a fan of titles but I really believe you should have your own message board.

If you don't watch the team, if you don't want to watch the team, if you don't care who wins on any given night and all you truly care about is whether or not they just won a title then you are not a Suns fan IMO. There should be a separate board for that group of "fans". And I'm not naming names or putting anyone in that group, I'm just saying....

Steve

Yes - titles are the end game. PLEASE PLEASE give me two titles in a row and 8 ****ty years in between. Although once a team gets a reputation for winning a tenured coach...it doesn't have to be hard to reload (see San Antonio).

Yes - teams that win multiple titles would probably have a good base of fans. Heck we are 0-46 in terms of no titles and fans are still around. We went through lean lean years at the madhouse on Mcdowell and people still came. Yes we have more competition in the Sports world here but it's not like any of those other teams are pumping out titles either.

The odds would be heavily in a favor that in those 8 years of sucking we would have a franchise player or two. Fans would be pumped. If you landed the next <insert franchise> stud....fans will come.

Did players want to play with Barkley? Did players want to play with Nash? Franchise players draw other players.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes - titles are the end game. PLEASE PLEASE give me two titles in a row and 8 ****ty years in between.

Yes - teams that win multiple titles would probably have a good base of fans. Heck we are 0-46 in terms of no titles and fans are still around. We went through lean lean years at the madhouse on Mcdowell and people still came. Yes we have more competition in the Sports world here but it's not like any of those other teams are pumping out titles either.

The odds would be heavily in a favor that in those 8 years of sucking we would have a franchise player or two. Fans would be pumped. If you landed the next <insert franchise> stud....fans will come.

Did players want to play with Barkley? Did players want to play with Nash? Franchise players draw other players.

If you knew in advance that we were going to win the title each of the next two years and then lose horribly each of the following 8 years, how many games would you go to during that 8 year stretch? How many games would you watch on TV during that stretch?

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

If you knew in advance that we were going to win the title each of the next two years and then lose horribly each of the following 8 years, how many games would you go to during that 8 year stretch? How many games would you watch on TV during that stretch?

Steve

Most. Because at least I knew this team would be winning titles. I would be interested to see the development of the young guys and the franchise players that were drafted. It's no fun for me to watch young guys without a franchise player. You know the team is not going to win a title that way.

When we drafted Amare.... I knew the Suns could potentially suck for awhile but I wanted to watch every damn game he was in.

Weren't the Suns wins like 44 wins and 29 wins his first two years or something like that (sorry have to look it up)? The point being is that many of my friends and I flocked to the arena to see the guy. We had NO idea that by 04-05 season trades would be made or that things would drastically turn around. Amare's pick had us stoked for the future. He was considered a franchise draft pick.

Could you imagine 8 years of being in the top 5? Statically we would be practically guaranteed at least one franchise player and possibly 2.

Yeah...give me some of that over drafting where we are now and fielding more fun to watch teams and continuing the 0-46 streak.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes - titles are the end game. PLEASE PLEASE give me two titles in a row and 8 ****ty years in between. Although once a team gets a reputation for winning a tenured coach...it doesn't have to be hard to reload (see San Antonio).

Yes - teams that win multiple titles would probably have a good base of fans. Heck we are 0-46 in terms of no titles and fans are still around. We went through lean lean years at the madhouse on Mcdowell and people still came. Yes we have more competition in the Sports world here but it's not like any of those other teams are pumping out titles either.

The odds would be heavily in a favor that in those 8 years of sucking we would have a franchise player or two. Fans would be pumped. If you landed the next <insert franchise> stud....fans will come.

Did players want to play with Barkley? Did players want to play with Nash? Franchise players draw other players.

Let's not forget that Barkley was acquired through trade, and Nash, even though we drafted him, returned to us as a free agent after several years of proving himself in Dallas.

Drafting high isn't the only way to build a winner. We've had winners in the past--not championships, but championship-caliber teams, and almost none of them were built with our own high draft picks.

 

[Covert Rain]

Let's not forget that Barkley was acquired through trade, and Nash, even though we drafted him, returned to us as a free agent after several years of proving himself in Dallas.

Drafting high isn't the only way to build a winner. We've had winners in the past--not championships, but championship-caliber teams, and almost none of them were built with our own high draft picks.

I didn't forget Chap...just making the point that landing a franchise player...regardless of method....historically draws other players to the franchise. Other players want to play with franchise players which was the point.

I also agree with you that drafting isn't the only way. Let me ask you this. Sarver has owned the team for 10 years and hurt the team's reputation. Is there anything in his history that gives you the warm and fuzzies he can pull off a trade for or attract a tier 1 free agent?

If your answer is no....are we not back to the draft scenario?

 

[Chaplin]

I didn't forget Chap...just making the point that landing a franchise player...regardless of method....historically draws other players to the franchise. Other players want to play with franchise players which was the point.

I also agree with you that drafting isn't the only way. Let me ask you this. Sarver has owned the team for 10 years and hurt the team's reputation. Is there anything in his history that gives you the warm and fuzzies he can pull off a trade for or attract a tier 1 free agent?

If your answer is no....are we not back to the draft scenario?

Let's talk about Bledsoe. People here and around the league are talking about him as if he's a max player--doesn't that make him part of the "franchise player" discussion? Personally, I don't think he's earned that title yet, but we won't know if we don't sign him long-term.

Would Bledsoe then be one of those guys that might attract other players? We don't know. Yet.

 

[Covert Rain]

Let's talk about Bledsoe. People here and around the league are talking about him as if he's a max player--doesn't that make him part of the "franchise player" discussion? Personally, I don't think he's earned that title yet, but we won't know if we don't sign him long-term.

Would Bledsoe then be one of those guys that might attract other players? We don't know. Yet.

Great question. I mentioned it in the other thread. Maybe he is on the cusp of becoming one of those players but I don't consider him a Max player. It's tough. He seems to have trouble staying healthy and do other players really want to play with him?

Max player does not always equal franchise player. There is a difference. A player can be a max player because the market dictates that. It definitely doesn't make said player a franchise player.

 

[Chaplin]

Great question. I mentioned it in the other thread. Maybe he is on the cusp of becoming one of those players but I don't consider him a Max player. It's tough. He seems to have trouble staying healthy and do other players really want to play with him?

Max player does not always equal franchise player. There is a difference. A player can be a max player because the market dictates that. It definitely doesn't make said player a franchise player.

Absolutely true, however, the discussion is there, and while we can't say he is a franchise player yet, we definitely cannot say he won't get there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Absolutely true, however, the discussion is there, and while we can't say he is a franchise player yet, we definitely cannot say he won't get there.

He's probably our best bet at the moment AND he is totally in our control. All we have to do is match. That's why we can't let him walk. Yes, it is a risk, but it is a risk we have to take.

Good grief, there is no guarantee that Andrew Wiggins is going to be a franchise player.