Draft Wednesday: Cardinals' Thoughts

[bg7brd]

Leinart has no say in a trade anyway. If the Cards wanted to deal him they would and vice versa.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I have a feeling he will be taken by the Falcons at #24 if he makes it past the patriots at #23.

What's curious about Matthews is only 94 tackles (40 of them assists) and 5 sacks for his career at USC. 26 tackles, 28 assists and 4 sacks last year...and many of his tackles were on STs.

The local Press in Houston believe that Matthews is their pick.

Family ties (uncle on staff) is given as one reason.

 

[Mitch]

AF made a good point...because of past criticisms and yes my belief, for right or for wrong, that BSP is better suited to be the #2, I can understand why my comments and questions are considered biased.

Here's my dilemma. I feel as if with Warner back for two years the Cardinals have a strong chance to win a Lombardi Trophy. Note: with BSP and/or Lienart at QB, IMO, that chance is more remote. But, in the hope that Warner does stay healthy, if the Cardinals could improve their pass rush and overall defensive performance, the chance gets better and better.

What concerns me is that while the Cardinals have re-signed Bertrand Berry and Clark Haggans, they have not added a pass rushing threat to the roster this off-season. Now I am delirious that they signed CB Bryant McFadden to improve an already improving secondary.

What concerns me about the draft is how late we are picking in each round...which is why most of us have been trying to conjure up ways to add draft picks through trades. That's why I thought of what the Cardinals could get for Leinart, who in a high QB market might generate some interest.

I do find it curious that Leinart has not expressed a desire to be traded in that it is still possible he could sit for the next two years and be headed into his 6th NFL season approaching 30 and not have been a full-time starter yet.

But...I do understand the patience factor here...looking more long term than short term. And if Leinart stays, becomes the starter and thrives, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

I am also thinking short-term on this draft. I think the Cardinals should draft players that can help immediately, at the expense of passing on some very good longer term prospects. This may be wrong to do as well.

Had the Cardinals added a pass rusher and a running back, I promise you I would not be nearly as eager to deal anyone...not Q and not Leinart.

There is alot at stake in this draft.

I could see a pass rusher like Paul Kruger or David Veikune on the board at #65...and that's why I would want to make a move there.

And, even though I don't think this is necessarily the best plan, because of our defensive needs, I am open to keeping Edge for another year, so that we can devote the first three or four picks to defense.

Let's remember that the defense gave up 26.4 points per game last year and gave up the most passing TDs in the NFL (31). Much of that had to do with the fact that our sack totals were poor and no player on the team had more than five sacks.

Imagine if the defense improves and only allows 18 points per game. We might finish the deal this time if that happens.

 

[Skkorpion]

Jumping on Mitch again about Leinart? 75% probability in my mind Mitch is right on this one. Have stated so more strongly than Mitch many times.

Difference being, I recognize Leinart might have matured and changed. Emphasis on might and that's only because Whisenhunt has shown him tough love and not dumped Leinart yet.

All my football sensors still don't tend positive on Matt Leinart.

 

[Mitch]

No. I'm pretty worked up with the way that some of the posters on this board treat him when he was the consummate teammate and a class act this season.

earthsci, I think Leinart handled his demotion with the utmost of class under very difficult circumstances and timing. And he's been just as you say. I hope you don't think I've been refuting any of that. In asking why he didn't ask for a trade, I didn't mean to imply that he hasn't handled himself well or with class. No one would ever question a player who asks for a trade because he wants to play and start.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I am also thinking short-term on this draft. I think the Cardinals should draft players that can help immediately, at the expense of passing on some very good longer term prospects.

Good to hear that you are officially dropping Barwin as a Card first round pick.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Leinart has no say in a trade anyway. If the Cards wanted to deal him they would and vice versa.

Don't the bolded contradict each other? Wouldn't you say even though Q doesn't have a "say" in being traded his actions and demands have led to him being shopped (or the team willing to consider trading him)?

If Leinart wanted to be an ass (like Cutler) he could. And many would not fault him (although those who don't like Matt would crucify him). He deserves credit for the way he has handeled it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Jumping on Mitch again about Leinart? 75% probability in my mind Mitch is right on this one. Have stated so more strongly than Mitch many times.

Difference being, I recognize Leinart might have matured and changed. Emphasis on might and that's only because Whisenhunt has shown him tough love and not dumped Leinart yet.

All my football sensors still don't tend positive on Matt Leinart.

Yeah we got it - your officially part of the role call:

Leinart "Haters", "non fans", or "non believers":

Rollerocks
Legend of Gunny
Red Dessert
Mitch
Skkorp
Cardscampos
IaWarnerfan
Moklerman
82

Am I missing anybody?

 

[bg7brd]

Don't the bolded contradict each other? Wouldn't you say even though Q doesn't have a "say" in being traded his actions and demands have led to him being shopped (or the team willing to consider trading him)?

If Leinart wanted to be an ass (like Cutler) he could. And many would not fault him (although those who don't like Matt would crucify him). He deserves credit for the way he has handeled it.

I don't think it has anything to do with his actions. It has to do with the team not wanting to invest a large sum of money into 1 position. Not to mention the up front money the club will have to come up with this off season for other deals.
I like the way Leinart has handled the situation as well. I think we would be absolutely crazy to trade him for a 3rd round pick.

 

[Mitch]

I am also thinking short-term on this draft. I think the Cardinals should draft players that can help immediately, at the expense of passing on some very good longer term prospects.

Good to hear that you are officially dropping Barwin as a Card first round pick.

Barwin is possibly the quickest edge rusher in this draft. His 11 sacks last year were no fuke. AND he blocked three punts last year. No way is he off my radar. Move this kid around in passing situations and have him rush like a madman.

 

[Matt L]

In Warner's time as the QB for the Cardinals he has had one season where he did not miss a start. It is very likely that Leinart will receive some playing time this season either due to injury or Warner stinking it up.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Barwin is possibly the quickest edge rusher in this draft. His 11 sacks last year were no fuke. AND he blocked three punts last year. No way is he off my radar. Move this kid around in passing situations and have him rush like a madman.

Mitch this is something we agree on. I am unsure about Barwin at #31 depending who is on the board but I like the Urlacher comparison you made the other day.

I was all aboard the Urlacher express back in the day and watched alot fo game tape. I see alot of the same things with Barwin. Just less experience.

 

[Shogun]

I think because of how evenly graded most of the first round prospects are this year, I think that the trading frenzy will be totally dependent on need. You are right about guys like with extra ammo like the Patriots, Broncos and possibly the Lions will be trying to move around and get who they want. What will be interesting is what the Redskins could do. I've seen them being mentioned in a quite a few draft day transaction scenarios. They are a wildcard because they could literally take anybody at #13 and it would make sense for him.

Although I would officially lose faith in Detroit if they passed on Stafford, the idea of St. Louis seriously looking at QB is a bit understated considering the hole at LT and LB. I know that they love Sanchez, but the question is whether Devaney would take the financial burden that comes with a #2 overall pick and Bulger's (who I think can still be an productive starter) hefty contract. But they could take Stafford or Sanchez and take one of Beatty, Britton, or Loadholt will be there at 35. After Loadholt, I think the OT class is a steep fall off. If I was a Rams fan, I would really want Aaron Curry. He can play all three spots, but ideally you play Curry inside and move Witherspoon back outisde where he belongs. Two birds with one stone on defense.

I think that Kruger would fit in perfectly at Predator. He's not stiff and has a good first step, but my concern is that he is raw because of his limited experience and it shows with his pass rush moves.

 

[Mitch]

I think because of how evenly graded most of the first round prospects are this year, I think that the trading frenzy will be totally dependent on need. You are right about guys like with extra ammo like the Patriots, Broncos and possibly the Lions will be trying to move around and get who they want. What will be interesting is what the Redskins could do. I've seen them being mentioned in a quite a few draft day transaction scenarios. They are a wildcard because they could literally take anybody at #13 and it would make sense for him.

Although I would officially lose faith in Detroit if they passed on Stafford, the idea of St. Louis seriously looking at QB is a bit understated considering the hole at LT and LB. I know that they love Sanchez, but the question is whether Devaney would take the financial burden that comes with a #2 overall pick and Bulger's (who I think can still be an productive starter) hefty contract. But they could take Stafford or Sanchez and take one of Beatty, Britton, or Loadholt will be there at 35. After Loadholt, I think the OT class is a steep fall off. If I was a Rams fan, I would really want Aaron Curry. He can play all three spots, but ideally you play Curry inside and move Witherspoon back outisde where he belongs. Two birds with one stone on defense.

I think that Kruger would fit in perfectly at Predator. He's not stiff and has a good first step, but my concern is that he is raw because of his limited experience and it shows with his pass rush moves.

Very good points all around. Kruger is very interesting because some think he can be a very good situational ILB34 as well, just as Vrable was...and get shifted to the edge as Vrable was.

Shogun, there's a kid at BC right now OLB Mark Herzlich, I don't know if you've seen him, but he is in the same mold...6-4 256 strong and agile.

 

[joeshmo]

Like explained in the newest Azcardinals.com article. The scouts have a list of things to look for in each prospect.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2975

When figuring out what that list of skill sets are the coaches have given to their scouts, I think a good place to look at is the one and only 3/4 OLB/converted DE we have ever drafted in the Wiz era - Chris Harrington.

What skill set did Chris Harrington have or show on tape and I think we could come up with a pretty accurate list of what the Cards look for in a 3-4 OLB.

1. Good but not great sack totals, but it was combined with high tackle totals. Meaning a well rounded LB, not one trick ponies.
2. Sets the edge
3. In the 260 pound range
4. Very strong vertical jump (lower body strength)
5. Hard-working overachiever

 

[Garthshort]

Matt can't win. If he speaks up he's trouble. If he doesn't speak up, he just doesn't care. I'm expecting him to have a big TC. The pressure is off, he'll get the majority of the snaps in the PS games, and I think we'll be pleasantly surprised. JMO.

 

[WildBB]

Like explained in the newest Azcardinals.com article. The scouts have a list of things to look for in each prospect.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2975

When figuring out what that list of skill sets are the coaches have given to their scouts, I think a good place to look at is the one and only 3/4 OLB/converted DE we have ever drafted in the Wiz era - Chris Harrington.

What skill set did Chris Harrington have or show on tape and I think we could come up with a pretty accurate list of what the Cards look for in a 3-4 OLB.

1. Good but not great sack totals, but it was combined with high tackle totals. Meaning a well rounded LB, not one trick ponies.
2. Sets the edge
3. In the 260 pound range
4. Very strong vertical jump (lower body strength)
5. Hard-working overachiever

Any clue as to how Harrington might pan out with an off season conditioning program under his belt? We felt he had a lot of upside last year. It seems that he should be ahead of almost anyone they take this year.

 

[Mulli]

Any clue as to how Harrington might pan out with an off season conditioning program under his belt? We felt he had a lot of upside last year. It seems that he should be ahead of almost anyone they take this year.

Doesn't he play for Cincy now?

 

[WildBB]

Shall I create the syllogism?

#2 QBs behind Pro Bowl QBs are not going to start.

Matt Leinart is a #2 QB behind a Pro Bowl QB.

Matt Leinart is not going to start.

Let me recap:

1. There is a high market right now for starting QBs.

2. Warner is the starting QB in Arizona...it's no longer a competition heading into camp.

3. Leinart could be---if he was dealt for---the starting QB for the Lions, the Jets, the Redskins and possibly even for the Bucs.

4. The QB pool in this year's draft is weak.

For a QB like Matt Leinart all these things would favor his interests to start if he expressed a desire to ask for a trade.

Would you trade Leinart to the Jets and then draft Freeman and let him learn behind Warner for two seasons?

Could they even get a 1st for Leinart?

 

[WildBB]

Doesn't he play for Cincy now?

Did he get released?

 

[Mulli]

Did he get released?

I think Cincy got him off our practice squad or something.

 

[WildBB]

3. This draft is going to feature a flurry of trades. It will be interesting to see for example what the Patriots do, seeing as they have the #23, #34, #47 and #58 picks on the first day. I think they will use two of the second rounders to move up to the tail end of the first round if a player they like is stil on the board. It's even posible that the Cardinals might swing such a deal with them, if the Patriots want to move in front of the Steelers.

Would you take 47 and 58 for Boldin and maybe like a 4th round pick next year?

@31 - Brown
@47 - Wood , Mack , Unger
@58 - Sintim , Kruger , Veikune
@63 - Casey, Meridith
@95 - Sidbury, Martin, Barnes,
@131- Vollmer, Kropog

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The point Mitch, and others are missing, is that the Cards are set at the QB position for the next 5-10 years. Warner plays this year, maybe next, and there's a smooth transition to Leinart. If Leinart's traded there's no way the Cards would go into the future with St. Savior as the starter. He's not a NFL starting QB. I suppose if Leinart had asked for a trade, there would be countless thread bashing him, alot by the same people that are questioning him for not asking, for not being a good teammate and how he should just wait patiently and learn until he takes over for KW. Leinart is a perfect position and knows it. So are the Cardinals.

 

[perivolaki]

Would you take 47 and 58 for Boldin and maybe like a 4th round pick next year?

@31 - Brown
@47 - Wood , Mack , Unger
@58 - Sintim , Kruger , Veikune
@63 - Casey, Meridith
@95 - Sidbury, Martin, Barnes,
@131- Vollmer, Kropog

This is interesting thinking. Most at first glance would say no, they want a 1st rounder, but I heard a draft expert from the Dallas Morning News propose something similar.

He talks to the decision makers with NFL teams to make his mock. He doesn't read any mock drafts done by anyone because he doesn't want any info to skew his thinking. He only listens to info from people who have input into the drafting of players.

He said that the first three rounds are very strong but it falls off quickly after that. He felt that from a quality standpoint a team could get almost as good a value from a 2nd or 3rd rounder as they might from the second half of the 1st round.

His point is that if the Cardinals were going to take two second rounders for Q this would be the year. He conceded that most years you would want that 1st rounder because the chances are that the player would be much better. It just isn't very much of a difference in this year.

He also felt that teams will be trying to move into the 2nd and 3rd rounds more than ever this year because the talent is weak after that. So it wouldn't surprise him to see teams trying to use picks in rounds 4-7 to try to move up a lot more than normal.

He also said it's a great year to be a 3-4 team. He said teams are telling him they've never seen so many 6'2" 255 lb. guys running a 4.8 40. So again we argue about which OLB to select but from what hes hearing there are a lot of guys you could put in a box, shake it up, pull one out, and be happy.

 

[JeffGollin]

Would you take 47 and 58 for Boldin and maybe like a 4th round pick next year?

@31 - Brown
@47 - Wood , Mack , Unger
@58 - Sintim , Kruger , Veikune
@63 - Casey, Meridith
@95 - Sidbury, Martin, Barnes,
@131- Vollmer, Kropog

No, no and no.

1. You are trading a known entity - a Pro Bowl game changer and spiritual leader in our locker room - for (1) an unproven center (at least 2 of 3 who probably won't be there at either #47 or #53 anyway) and (2) an unproven OLB.

2. You've done nothing to replace our Pro Bowl receiver with another receiver (presumably in the hope that Breaston, Doucet and Urban will adequately replace the hole created by the now missing Q).

3. The 4th round from next year is chump change.

4. If you're going to trade one our our Top 6 players, even if we received a 1st rounder, all we'd be doing is exchanging one top player for "possibly" another. If that's all we'd wind up with - why do it?

5. If it's a matter of (a) doing the best thing for our roster or (b) "making Q happy by trading him - I'd rather keep Q (and continue to work on an extension or at least an interim deal we can afford).

6. I realize it's arbitrary, but - in terms of doing the best thing for our roster I don't think anything less than this year's #1, #2 and #3 would be worth giving up Boldin (and even then, I wouldn't be all that comfortable making that trade).