Dragan Bender

[JCSunsfan]

I would agree with this but I'd say it's just as important to avoid homegrown projects. Chriss, Bender and even Len were all raw enough to cause doubt come extension time. But we're all looking for the next Giannis and we overlook how rarely that kind of raw and fully untapped potential blossoms during that first contract.

It is too easy to keep looking for magic beans and miss the obvious choices.

Devon Booker was the best shooter in the draft and the most obvious pick when our turn came.
Steve Nash was the "safe pick" when we drafted him.
Jason Tatum clearly had the better skill-set of he and Jackson. He was the safer immediate pick. Looks like he is going to be better long term as well. I know he was taken before, but either Ainge took him because he could see that he was better or because McD shafted him. Either way, Tatum was the better pick.
Even TJ Warren is exactly now what he was in college. He is a scoring phenom.

Every once in a while you get a young, unskilled player that turns into something special, but the odds are highly against it.

Bender, Chriss, Goodwin, Len, and maybe even Jackson. We will see with JJ. We better learn how to use what he is right now, rather than keep hoping he will be a better shooter etc.

 

[Raindog]

Honestly, I was leery of both Booker and Nash, when we drafted them... also Marion, Majerle, and Larry Nance (going waaay back). Obviously, I was wrong on all counts. Of course, every one of those picks (prior to Booker) was a testimonial to how great the Suns scouting department was for decades under Colangelo.

I have to agree with Slin on the massively ridiculous overrating of Euro (and foreign) prospects, in general. Sure, every once in a while a gem comes up... but the great majority have been worthless. You simply cannot trust the hype on most of them, and it is laughable how often NBA front offices have been fished in by the BS manufactured by "basketball expert" bloggers. McD was as guilty as the worst of them with both the Len pick (because his short stay at Maryland, notwithstanding, he was essentially the same thing) and Bender.

This is the major reason I don't really trust the hype on Doncic. He may turn out to be decent or even good in the NBA, but the hyperbole has been so out of control, that I simply cannot imagine when all is said and done, he will come anywhere close to the absurd level of overrating he has been given.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Honestly, I was leery of both Booker and Nash, when we drafted them... also Marion, Majerle, and Larry Nance (going waaay back). Obviously, I was wrong on all counts. Of course, every one of those picks (prior to Booker) was a testimonial to how great the Suns scouting department was for decades under Colangelo.

I have to agree with Slin on the massively ridiculous overrating of Euro (and foreign) prospects, in general. Sure, every once in a while a gem comes up... but the great majority have been worthless. You simply cannot trust the hype on most of them, and it is laughable how often NBA front offices have been fished in by the BS manufactured by "basketball expert" bloggers. McD was as guilty as the worst of them with both the Len pick (because his short stay at Maryland, notwithstanding, he was essentially the same thing) and Bender.

This is the major reason I don't really trust the hype on Doncic. He may turn out to be decent or even good in the NBA, but the hyperbole has been so out of control, that I simply cannot imagine when all is said and done, he will come anywhere close to the absurd level of overrating he has been given.

We fail to remember how many total flops occurred during the Colangelo regime as well. The draft is a crap shoot. Good scouting departments increase your odds, but its still a crap shoot.

I am old enough to remember Jerrod Mustaf, Mario Bennett, Marty Byrnes, David Thirdkill, Jay Humphries, Armen Gilliam, and Tim Perry.

OH year. Malcom Mackay, Big Jake, Zarko, Earl Clark, and others.

I think McD was fired for his free agency failures rather than draft failures. Every GM, even the best, have draft failures.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We fail to remember how many total flops occurred during the Colangelo regime as well. The draft is a crap shoot. Good scouting departments increase your odds, but its still a crap shoot.

I am old enough to remember Jerrod Mustaf, Mario Bennett, Marty Byrnes, David Thirdkill, Jay Humphries, Armen Gilliam, and Tim Perry.

OH year. Malcom Mackay, Big Jake, Zarko, Earl Clark, and others.

I think McD was fired for his free agency failures rather than draft failures. Every GM, even the best, have draft failures.

I wouldn't put Gilliam in the total flop category at all. He played for a dozen years and averaged 15 points per game in his 3 years with us. Disappointment, yes, total flop, no way.

And IMO, if McD was fired for free agency failures it would be for who we signed (and for how much) rather than who we didn't get.

 

[Raindog]

I am old enough to remember Jerrod Mustaf, Mario Bennett, Marty Byrnes, David Thirdkill, Jay Humphries, Armen Gilliam, and Tim Perry.

OH year. Malcom Mackay, Big Jake, Zarko, Earl Clark, and others.

Neither Humphries nor Gilliam were flops. Humphries actually had a good career... and Gilliam was okay.

Zarko and Earl Clark were post- Colangelo. And most of the rest you cited were low first round picks, with the exception of Gilliam and Perry (who helped us net Barkley, BTW).

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm curious if our scouting was really that good or if our coaching was when we drafted guys like Majerle, Hornacek, Nash, Wesley Person, Michael Finley, Oliver Miller, and traded for KJ in his rookie year. All were rotation players, I think, but most exceeded expectations by a good amount. Of course there were duds along the way but they hit on a lot of late 1st round picks, as well as later round picks.

You can see a players skills in college, especially back then when players stayed in school for 3 or 4 years. Very few players left after 1 season and there were no high school kids. Entering the league at 21 and being a more complete package helped our coaches see what they could do. After learning that they put them in a position to succeed. We had fairly stable coaching in the late 80's through mid 90's with Cotton running the show and then giving Westphal his job. Cotton stayed with the organization in some capacity and didn't ride off into the sunset. It was a different league back then. More rookies were ready to contribute than there are nowadays. Most lottery picks now are prospects who didn't spend much time in school and get drafted because of potential instead of results.

I'm not saying the scouts don't deserve credit because they do. I think the coaches deserve more credit when people discuss the hits in the draft under Colangelo's time as owner. How much was the scouts and how much was the coaches? Who knows. Since they got better every year and a lot of them added new aspects to their game I would say the coaches were responsible for expanding their games while the scouts deserve credit for finding the players initially that our coaches could work with.

 

[Hoop Head]

Zarko and Earl Clark were post- Colangelo. And most of the rest you cited were low first round picks, with the exception of Gilliam and Perry (who helped us net Barkley, BTW).

Zarko was drafted under Colangelo's time. Jerry campaigned Stern to ban Danny Fortson for his thuggish cheap shot that ruined Zarko. He was taken #17 in the 2003 draft, which was Colangelo's last draft as the owner. His rookie year was the season we dumped Marbury, Penny, and Gugliotta to free up salary because Colangelo was selling the team. We weren't going far with those guys anyways, we were barely a playoff team before that. Frank Johnson was the coach until he got canned for D'Antoni.

 

[Superbone]

this is quiet possibly the worst statement I have read about the Suns in years.

Nothing quiet about it. Maybe read it a little louder next time. I wouldn't say Chriss' bad three point shooting was the worst thing about the Suns over the years. But yeah, it was pretty bad.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Gilliam was the second pick in the draft and was a MAJOR disappointment. He was a flop in my book. Tim Perry’s career was a flop too. He was traded for a reason. I was a Die hard Suns fan back then too.

 

[Western Font]

I think Bender is a sunk cost fallacy based on his draft spot. At this point he isn’t any more valuable than another player his age with comparable numbers. Which is a lot of rookies and projects. Had he been drafted later we wouldn’t worry about cutting bait because we’d feel he is replaceable. I’d like him to turn it on for the narrative, but in the meantime he is occupying a
roster spot and additional money after this month.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Gilliam was the second pick in the draft and was a MAJOR disappointment. He was a flop in my book. Tim Perry’s career was a flop too. He was traded for a reason. I was a Die hard Suns fan back then too.

We thought we drafted a star and what we got was a solid NBA starter so yes, he was a disappointment. But if you're saying he fits the definition of total flop then you might as well list 75% of the players drafted in the top 10.

 

[elindholm]

Gilliam was the second pick in the draft and was a MAJOR disappointment. He was a flop in my book. Tim Perry’s career was a flop too. He was traded for a reason. I was a Die hard Suns fan back then too.

Gilliam was a disappointment, but you're wrong about Perry. He was traded to get Barkley and put together a solid, if unspectacular, career.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

Gilliam was a disappointment, but you're wrong about Perry. He was traded to get Barkley and put together a solid, if unspectacular, career.

Perry was Cottons whipping boy. He had all the tools to be a special player but he had a disconnect in the smarts department. The way Cotton used to yell at Tim still makes me laugh to this day.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am not going to argue ad nauseum on these two. Gilliam was the ultimate empty stats player. Perry would make Wes Person look Mensa member. If you see Alex Len as a draft failure, so were they.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Gilliam was slightly before my time, so I looked back at some articles to have a better understanding. Very entertaining stuff. This first article details a fight between Gilliam and Chambers, as well as some hijinks happening with a guy named Barkley in Philadelphia. Fun read!

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-12-10/sports/8912103291_1_gilliam-charles-barkley-chambers

This second article is about how the Suns couldn't get value for Gilliam and were struggling, so they traded him for an aging Kurt Rambis...who immediately added a spark to a team that began winning.

https://www.nba.com/suns/history/suns-throwback-rambis-effect#gref

 

[JCSunsfan]

Gilliam was slightly before my time, so I looked back at some articles to have a better understanding. Very entertaining stuff. This first article details a fight between Gilliam and Chambers, as well as some hijinks happening with a guy named Barkley in Philadelphia. Fun read!

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-12-10/sports/8912103291_1_gilliam-charles-barkley-chambers

This second article is about how the Suns couldn't get value for Gilliam and were struggling, so they traded him for an aging Kurt Rambis...who immediately added a spark to a team that began winning.

https://www.nba.com/suns/history/suns-throwback-rambis-effect#gref

Oh. I remember that trade. I was devastated. I had so much invested in Gilliam as the second pick in the draft. "A man among boys" they used to say. But then he would only put up numbers in garbage time in games, and he was one of the worst defensive players I ever saw. He did not even try. But still, when you trade your young buck for an old role player like Rambis, it is a real kick in the gut.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Gilliam was the second pick in the draft and was a MAJOR disappointment. He was a flop in my book. Tim Perry’s career was a flop too. He was traded for a reason. I was a Die hard Suns fan back then too.

yeah.. he was traded to sweeten the deal to get Barkley. He was definitely a disappointment his first three years in the league, but made a pretty big jump from a 4 ppg/3 rebounds/1 block per game to 12/7/1.5 in year four which made him an attractive piece to add to Horny for the Barkley deal.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not going to argue ad nauseum on these two. Gilliam was the ultimate empty stats player. Perry would make Wes Person look Mensa member. If you see Alex Len as a draft failure, so were they.

Gilliam was the PF version of Warren, no doubt.

 

[95pro]

Pretty intriguing comments in here from the start.

 

[sunsfan88]

Pretty intriguing comments in here from the start.

Not as intriguing as this one but it’s close

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/josh-jackson.249028/

 

[sunsfan88]

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Kokoskov makes a good point and makes me wonder why he never got any stints in the G league.

 

[95pro]

Not saying much but I would hope Bender can play instead of Anderson.

 

[Dan H]

Perry was an interesting guy. IIRC we played him mostly at the 4, and the guy was what, 210 soaking wet?

I think he'd have been better off at small forward, but we were loaded there during his time with Ced, Majerle, etc. He might have been an interesting fit next to Barkley, in all honesty, but that would have meant trading a guy like Ceballos or Dumas.

You also have to wonder about Jerrod Mustaf's life and personal arc. I recall reading a book by one of the Suns beat writers about Barkley's first season. They were actually intending on running a lineup of West-Mustaf-Barkley-Majerle-KJ, but Sir Charles struggled at small forward in the west, so Mustaf went to the bench. You have to wonder if he might not have been able to fill the same role Rick Mahorn did when he played with Barkley in Philly.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Perry was an interesting guy. IIRC we played him mostly at the 4, and the guy was what, 210 soaking wet?

I think he'd have been better off at small forward, but we were loaded there during his time with Ced, Majerle, etc. He might have been an interesting fit next to Barkley, in all honesty, but that would have meant trading a guy like Ceballos or Dumas.

You also have to wonder about Jerrod Mustaf's life and personal arc. I recall reading a book by one of the Suns beat writers about Barkley's first season. They were actually intending on running a lineup of West-Mustaf-Barkley-Majerle-KJ, but Sir Charles struggled at small forward in the west, so Mustaf went to the bench. You have to wonder if he might not have been able to fill the same role Rick Mahorn did when he played with Barkley in Philly.

We were trying to find another Larry Nance when we drafted Perry.