Dragan Bender

Dragan Bender... Still glad we drafted him?

  • Yes I'm happy and want to give him more time.

    Votes: 29 46.0%
  • No I'm not happy and I want him traded.

    Votes: 16 25.4%
  • Unsure right now. Can't make a decision.

    Votes: 18 28.6%

  • Total voters
    63

Hoop Head

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That stat is so useless.

Of course his numbers are better when he played more minutes because he only played more minutes when he played better....

It's useless to you because it doesn't fit your narrative. I see you use Per-36 all of the time though. So a projected stat is better than actual performance? That doesn't make sense. Let's look at what Chriss's stats were, for comparison. His defensive rating got worse the more he played and so did his plus/minus. Chriss actually had the 481st worst overall +/- in the league, 2nd worst on the team with only Alex Len being worse, finishing 483rd out of 486 players. When it comes to +/- per game though he was slightly better, 463rd out of 486 players. So Chriss got more minutes when he was playing poorly but Bender got more minutes when he was playing better? How does that work?

Now I like Chriss but I don't think his potential is higher than Bender's, he's just more NBA ready now. The way you talk about them though, Chriss should be ROY and Bender should be cut, you justify that stance by cherry picking stats but it works both ways. If someone said Bender finished in the bottom 10 in the league in +/- you'd call for Bender's head, McD's resignation, and proclaim how right you were, not considering anything else. Now go ahead and tell me why that stat doesn't matter, I want to start a list of which stats matter...

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AZCrazy

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Bender hardly played. He gets a big incomplete, and that's all that can be said. He's literally 18 years old. Cool the hate jets. He'd just be graduating high school if he were from the U.S.
 

Hoop Head

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Bender hardly played. He gets a big incomplete, and that's all that can be said. He's literally 18 years old. Cool the hate jets. He'd just be graduating high school if he were from the U.S.

This is close to how I feel about him although I think he showed just enough to get excited about what he brings to the table. He definitely didn't play enough to accurately judge him with him advanced stats though. PER is the main stat that bothers me as it can be very misleading, even when applied to someone who got more playing time. Javale McGee finished 2nd amongst all centers and 13th overall with a PER of 25.26, that was over the course of 77 games. That is considerably higher than anyone on the Suns, higher than Booker and Chriss' added together actually, but he is one of the only players I wouldn't trade Brandon Knight for.
 

sunsfan88

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It's useless to you because it doesn't fit your narrative. I see you use Per-36 all of the time though. So a projected stat is better than actual performance? That doesn't make sense. Let's look at what Chriss's stats were, for comparison. His defensive rating got worse the more he played and so did his plus/minus. Chriss actually had the 481st worst overall +/- in the league, 2nd worst on the team with only Alex Len being worse, finishing 483rd out of 486 players. When it comes to +/- per game though he was slightly better, 463rd out of 486 players. So Chriss got more minutes when he was playing poorly but Bender got more minutes when he was playing better? How does that work?

Now I like Chriss but I don't think his potential is higher than Bender's, he's just more NBA ready now. The way you talk about them though, Chriss should be ROY and Bender should be cut, you justify that stance by cherry picking stats but it works both ways. If someone said Bender finished in the bottom 10 in the league in +/- you'd call for Bender's head, McD's resignation, and proclaim how right you were, not considering anything else. Now go ahead and tell me why that stat doesn't matter, I want to start a list of which stats matter...

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You know you're arguing a lost cause right? He's not gonna change his mind. He hated the Bender pick when it was made and it's gonna remain like that for him forever, regardless how bad or how well Bender plays.
 

Hoop Head

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You know you're arguing a lost cause right? He's not gonna change his mind. He hated the Bender pick when it was made and it's gonna remain like that for him forever, regardless how bad or how well Bender plays.


I know he won't change his mind but that doesn't mean he should get a pass. It's frustrating seeing someone so closed mindedly confident in their limited viewpoints.
 

leclerc

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That's what signature is for. Slin, put up "I think the Bender pick was a mistake" and give it a rest. Let's hear details on your tier 1 and 2 players plus possible round two gems.
 

3rdside

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Alright well I'm gonna confess my sins.

Perhaps it wasn't the best way for me to go about raising a point but I finally reached saturation point with that guy. I don't mind personality clashes, that's inevitable, but I do draw the line at personal insults which is what slinslin constantly reverts to.

A**hole, moron, idiot, stupid, don't know what you're talking about etc etc - it's literally the only thing that upsets my vibe on here, the only thing, and that's not right because personal insults aren't right. I come here to talk basketball, not to feel aggravated by a self aggrandising fool.

Mods, you need to clamp down on the guy because he's clearly the source of a lot of frustration round here - any more personal insults and he should be suspended, beyond that a ban; I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here.
 

3rdside

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In addition, I'd like to suggest you build in functionality to this board whereby if you ignore someone, even when they're quoted their quote is ignored.

This for the inevitable when I get sick of the guy again.
 

SirStefan32

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Alright well I'm gonna confess my sins.

Perhaps it wasn't the best way for me to go about raising a point but I finally reached saturation point with that guy. I don't mind personality clashes, that's inevitable, but I do draw the line at personal insults which is what slinslin constantly reverts to.

A**hole, moron, idiot, stupid, don't know what you're talking about etc etc - it's literally the only thing that upsets my vibe on here, the only thing, and that's not right because personal insults aren't right. I come here to talk basketball, not to feel aggravated by a self aggrandising fool.

Mods, you need to clamp down on the guy because he's clearly the source of a lot of frustration round here - any more personal insults and he should be suspended, beyond that a ban; I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here.


I completely agree. I have never seen such a great online community over the past 15+ years. I hate the fact that one guy ruins a pleasant experience. I actually used to use this board as an example how an online community can actually be polite, thoughtful, and respectful. Sure, we've had our share of Andrews, the realhardaways, etc, but this is really getting out of hand.
 

slinslin

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Alright well I'm gonna confess my sins.

Perhaps it wasn't the best way for me to go about raising a point but I finally reached saturation point with that guy. I don't mind personality clashes, that's inevitable, but I do draw the line at personal insults which is what slinslin constantly reverts to.

A**hole, moron, idiot, stupid, don't know what you're talking about etc etc - it's literally the only thing that upsets my vibe on here, the only thing, and that's not right because personal insults aren't right. I come here to talk basketball, not to feel aggravated by a self aggrandising fool.

Mods, you need to clamp down on the guy because he's clearly the source of a lot of frustration round here - any more personal insults and he should be suspended, beyond that a ban; I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

3rdside, There is a saying, you should be sweeping infront of your own door. You are usually the one who is attacking because you can't or don't want to deal with an argument. Look at this thread, look at your post here. Best example of making things personal. Completely unprovoked, totally off-topic and derailing the thread.

You fall into childish behavior like creating penis symbols in your point instead of making an argument when you disagree. Who are you to judge me then?

I completely agree. I have never seen such a great online community over the past 15+ years. I hate the fact that one guy ruins a pleasant experience. I actually used to use this board as an example how an online community can actually be polite, thoughtful, and respectful. Sure, we've had our share of Andrews, the realhardaways, etc, but this is really getting out of hand.



SirStefan, you are consistently engaging in making posts that are void of any basketball related content that contain nothing but trolling and baiting me on this board and you post this? Good one.
 
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cwamjn

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In addition, I'd like to suggest you build in functionality to this board whereby if you ignore someone, even when they're quoted their quote is ignored.

This for the inevitable when I get sick of the guy again.
that functionality is already built in. If you ignore somebody they disappear plus posts that quote them. I can figure out who you are talking about based on context.
 

Chaplin

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that functionality is already built in. If you ignore somebody they disappear plus posts that quote them. I can figure out who you are talking about based on context.
Not entirely true. The quotes within posts disappear, but the post that is written in response to the ignored post still remains. It causes a lot of confusion--I'm going through a crisis on the teaching thread in P&R.
 

3rdside

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3rdside, There is a saying, you should be sweeping infront of your own door. You are usually the one who is attacking because you can't or don't want to deal with an argument. Look at this thread, look at your post here. Best example of making things personal. Completely unprovoked, totally off-topic and derailing the thread.

You fall into childish behavior like creating penis symbols in your point instead of making an argument when you disagree. Who are you to judge me then?





SirStefan, you are consistently engaging in making posts that are void of any basketball related content that contain nothing but trolling and baiting me on this board and you post this? Good one.



I've had enough experience of people like you to realise that no matter what I say, you're simply going to stick to your own false narrative, regardless of facts, and claim the victim role.

Why, therefore, I'm bothering to respond to you is a little beyond explanation; maybe - just maybe - because this time you are so far off reality that I might actually get you to change. I doubt it - a massive ***** rarely changes his spots - but forgive me for trying (for the last time...).


Fact 1.

King Dad and I were in a discussion about Bender's output. I don't believe you were involved to this point. After I commented "good post" in response to his you chimed in with "this stat is useless".

What a massive ***** comment to make.

I have worked in quantitative departments of banks, I have a master's degree in a quantitative subject - I know numbers and I know which ones mean something and which ones don't. For you to say something like that shows all of:

- Arrogance
- Stupidity
- Antagonism

I replied "where is the erect penis emoticon" - a fairly tame response to having my earned credibility insulted. Don't tell me you were provoked here, this provocation was all you.


Fact 2.

Kingdad attempted to discredit your "this stat is useless statement" - while I personally thought his argument was a little imprecise, it did have some merit; that your very superficial claim that "Bender got better stats when he played more minutes because he earned those minutes" was contradictory when applied to Chriss.

You responded to Kingdad by calling him a moron.

In defence of Kingdad and because you were antagonistic earlier, I responded with the only thing you deserved, a massive ***** emoticon. This after years of listening to you insult people left, right and centre because you somehow think you know better, think you are better, than everyone else.


For you to claim you are the victim here is unbelievable delusion suggesting either a mental impairment - which if you have one I don't make fun of, I just ask you to stop being such an a**hole to this board - or deliberate antagonism, which I will make sure you're suspended for in the future.
 
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Hoop Head

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I didn't want to post in here after the mess that it became because of the WW2 reference but I will one final time. I agree with everything 3rdSide said above and will ask Slin one final time. If you're going to use advanced stats to tout or discredit players then please be consistent and list which advanced stats matter, to you in your signature line. List a few of your favorites. I doubt you will because you know you contradict yourself constantly by cherry picking but be consistent. If you don't like a player, that's fine, but don't try and shove ridiculous stats out there saying he sucks only to go in another thread and say those same stats are meaningless because a player you like doesn't grade well with them.
 

3rdside

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I didn't want to post in here after the mess that it became because of the WW2 reference but I will one final time. I agree with everything 3rdSide said above and will ask Slin one final time. If you're going to use advanced stats to tout or discredit players then please be consistent and list which advanced stats matter, to you in your signature line. List a few of your favorites. I doubt you will because you know you contradict yourself constantly by cherry picking but be consistent. If you don't like a player, that's fine, but don't try and shove ridiculous stats out there saying he sucks only to go in another thread and say those same stats are meaningless because a player you like doesn't grade well with them.


Well I can forgive pokerface because americans seem to (just a general opinion) have less of a grasp of what goes on outside their borders than vice versa; see sean spicer and the guy in the p and r forum who is still worried about germany re-arming (this last one kind of blew me away) and therefore don't necessarily understand the gravity of their comments or jokes.

It's not an excuse, but if there was one...

More importantly Kingdad, I hadn't particularly noticed Slinslin cherry picking stats to suit arguments - that is straight up trolling. I don't want the guy banned because he does contribute decent stuff from time to time and it would be so much better and easier if he just stopped acting the way he does, but at the same time i'd rather see him gone than not change.

At least 5 people complained about him on this thread, which is grounds enough to put him on watch.
 
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Mainstreet

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More importantly Kingdad, I hadn't particularly noticed Slinslin cherry picking stats to suit arguments - that is straight up trolling. I don't want the guy banned because he does contribute decent stuff from time to time and it would be so much better and easier if he just stopped acting the way he does, but at the same time i'd rather see him gone than not change.

At least 5 people complained about him on this thread, which is grounds enough to put him on watch, so any more of the insults or trolling as you mention and I'll get the ball rolling towards his suspension.

The last thing we need to do is drive away more posters. Are you a Moderator?
 

3rdside

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Like I said I'd prefer him to hang around - it doesn't seem too difficult to me for him to change his behaviour and it is really, and finally, too much to ask?

And there's no where left for him to go - as far as I know he got hounded off realgm and .net definitely wouldn't put up with him.

Does another suns board exist? I have a feeling there might be one more...
 
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3rdside

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A bit of editing going on here; a little heavy handed on my part...testament to how much the guy has pi$$ed me off.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Like I said I'd prefer him to hang around - it doesn't seem too difficult to me for him to change his behaviour and it is really, and finally, too much to ask?

And there's no where left for him to go - as far as I know he got hounded off realgm and .net definitely wouldn't put up with him.

Does another suns board exist? I have a feeling there might be one more...
Bright Side of the Sun is one of the most active Suns boards on the internet (possibly the most active).
 

Mainstreet

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Bright Side of the Sun is one of the most active Suns boards on the internet (possibly the most active).

Plus there are a couple of Suns groups on Facebook that have quite a bit of action.

This is great to know. I rarely gone beyond the domains of this forum but I will have to give it a look. I wish there was a way to visit Facebook without joining like being given guest privileges.
 

AzStevenCal

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This is great to know. I rarely gone beyond the domains of this forum but I will have to give it a look. I wish there was a way to visit Facebook without joining like being given guest privileges.

Just join under an assumed name if you're uncomfortable going fully public.
 
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