Durant to Suns

[SunsTzu]

Correct. Two-Way players are not eligible for the playoffs unless signed to a regular roster spot. Their deals can be converted to regular deals up to the last day of the season, I believe.

Ish only has 10 games left on his 2 way contract so they will likely need to make a decision with him prior to the end of the season unless the start DNPing him.

Ideally we sign Stanley Johnson and if Ish outplays either Johnson or Bazley we convert him or have him for as long as we can for insurance purposes incase someone(looking at Warren) goes down with an injury. Anyone we bring on after March 1st wouldn't be playoff eligible so converting Ish would at least give the Suns another body.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You know if we drafted Haliburton Bridges is probably still a Sun.

Or he’s not but we had Haliburton.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They could have, but it's a huge risk on their end. If he decides to sit until they move him then they wouldn't have gotten squat for him.

YearS of contract left.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree with much of this but the conclusion I would have come to, were I in charge, was that despite our need it might not be the right time to chase a superstar. I agree we need another unstoppable force and KD is that when healthy but I'd have drawn the line at the safe side of the unprotected picks and if Brooklyn said no, I'd reset my timeline. Not because I wanted to but because the right target simply wasn't available at this time. I wouldn't have put it all down on a longshot.

It would still have been risky but I'd have hedged my bet with pick protections or waited for a star that we could reasonably expect to suit up and win games for us. We'd still have major assets to trade this offseason or the middle of the next season. Maybe we could have traded all our picks and a couple of players for Scoot or someone like that? But now, that ship has sailed.

Where we differ is:

Me: When you have your shot. And it’s a legitimate shot, and you’re the suns. You gotta take it. Even in the face of big risks. This presented itself now.

You: not willing to take the big risk and rather betting that in the future another superstar comes available and we still have assets to trade for him (doesn’t happen often, and who knows if they want/willing to play for suns) or that we draft a superstar. In the 54 years of the suns history these two things have (almost, not all of these are superstars) happened (imo) 9 times (Hawkins, Davis, KJ, chambers, Barkley, stoudamire, nash, book, KD). But only Barkley and KD rise to this potential level. So only two shots in 54 years of landing a guy of this potential peak impact. I think your gamble, that this will happen while we still have Booker, is a bigger gamble.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Where we differ is:

Me: When you have your shot. And it’s a legitimate shot, and you’re the suns. You gotta take it. Even in the face of big risks. This presented itself now.

You: not willing to take the big risk and rather betting that in the future another superstar comes available and we still have assets to trade for him (doesn’t happen often, and who knows if they want/willing to play for suns) or that we draft a superstar. In the 54 years of the suns history these two things have (almost, not all of these are superstars) happened (imo) 9 times (Hawkins, Davis, KJ, chambers, Barkley, stoudamire, nash, book, KD). But only Barkley and KD rise to this potential level. So only two shots in 54 years of landing a guy of this potential peak impact. I think your gamble, that this will happen while we still have Booker, is a bigger gamble.

I agree that this pretty much sums up where we differ. But it's because I rate the risk of failure to be much higher than I believe you do. Since this deal has already been completed I really wish I hadn't read the summaries of studies on post-surgical Achilles repairs for elite athletes. Those studies plus KD's recurring lower limb injuries take this well beyond the acceptable risk level IMO.

 

[sdscard4]

We weren't winning sheet with the current lineup...let's do this Suns

 

[Phrazbit]

YearS of contract left.

If he wasn't willing to play they were not just going to sit on him.

Houston tried playing hard ball when Harden demanded his trade, they ended up getting squat, Philly tried playing hard ball when Simmons did, they ended up getting squat (fat Harden ironically), we still paid out the nose, and far more than any other team could offer.

I hope it works, it certainly increased our title odds, I just think it was a huge overpay.

These mega trades typically don't work and no one has coughed up this much for a dude in his mid 30s before.

 

[Proximo]

I still don't know how I feel about this trade. I hate losing the tho youngsters, but I keep coming back to the fact that they needed to get a second star. Unless Ayton turned into David Robinson or Bridges into Kawhi Leonard, the Suns weren't gonna win it all. If KD and Booker remain healthy, in my opinion, they are the favorites. With KD... you can't double Booker and suffocate CP3. Suddenly, Book goes from being an "OK" first option to being the best second option. CP3 goes from having to be the second option (and sometimes first) on regular basis to simply having to be a solid third option. Ayton goes from having to be a third option to having almost no pressure. Role players are gonna have a bunch of open shots with Booker and KD demanding so much attention from other teams. Sure, it's very risky- one injury and they are done, but I don't see how they win it all without making this trade.

I’m with you.

I am REALLY worried about Durant’s ability to stay healthy.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's not at all accurate. And the logic here floors me. How is everyone just completely dismissing the facts about Kevin Durant's Achilles rupture and that he's 34 years old? I get that everyone here wants to win a championship and everyone believes that we probably weren't going to do that in the immediate future without major change and that sometimes you have to take a chance but we went far beyond just taking a risk.

Signing him off the street at his current salary for the next 3.5 years? That's risky. And it's a risk I would have taken. But doing that while also giving up Mikal, CamJ and Crowder goes several steps beyond risky. Then, throwing in 4 picks on top of it and not even getting protection for one or more of them, that's a setup for an SNL "Bad Idea Jeans" commercial minus the humor.

And winning it all won't change the fact that we got extremely lucky. With a strong wind blowing in, we closed our eyes and swung for the fences. Like everyone else here, I really hope that getting lucky is the result of this move. Regardless, we paid what would have been a fair price for a disgruntled superstar in his prime.

I'm not in the "everyone" category. I think there is more than a fair amount of risk in the trade. Including Bridges in the trade and the failure to include protection on any of the draft picks is a concern as well.

The Suns acquiesced to Brooklyn's every trade demand. IMO, this was the Suns new owner making a statement. I don't think James Jones would have made this move as formatted.

The counterargument seems to be the risk for a championship is worth it. Hopefully the Suns get at least one championship out of it like the Lakers did when they traded for Anthony Davis. Also, it appears some other teams were willing to include the draft picks but probably not the caliber of players the Suns included.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen what the Suns could have traded for using draft picks and expiring contracts. If necessary, I would have considered trading Cam Johnson but not Bridges. I don't think the Suns were that far away.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not in the "everyone" category. I think there is more than a fair amount of risk in the trade. Including Bridges in the trade and the failure to include protection on any of the draft picks is a concern as well.

The Suns acquiesced to Brooklyn's every trade demand. IMO, this was the Suns new owner making a statement. I don't think James Jones would have made this move as formatted.

The counterargument seems to be the risk for a championship is worth it. Hopefully the Suns get at least one championship out of it like the Lakers did when they traded for Anthony Davis. Also, it appears some other teams were willing to include the draft picks but probably not the caliber of players the Suns included.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen what the Suns could have traded for using draft picks and expiring contracts. If necessary, I would have considered trading Cam Johnson but not Bridges. I don't think the Suns were that far away.

Yeah, using "everyone" like that was just my lazy way of saying "a lot of posters". But I believe "everyone" would agree there's risk with this trade, where we differ is in the degree of risk.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, using "everyone" like that was just my lazy way of saying "a lot of posters". But I believe "everyone" would agree there's risk with this trade, where we differ is in the degree of risk.

It was clear to me what you meant. I wanted to voice that you had company in your concerns.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ish only has 10 games left on his 2 way contract so they will likely need to make a decision with him prior to the end of the season unless the start DNPing him.

Ideally we sign Stanley Johnson and if Ish outplays either Johnson or Bazley we convert him or have him for as long as we can for insurance purposes incase someone(looking at Warren) goes down with an injury. Anyone we bring on after March 1st wouldn't be playoff eligible so converting Ish would at least give the Suns another body.

We don't need to make a decision on Ish yet and don't need to adhere to the March 1st deadline because he's our Two-Way player. I believe his deal was converted in April of last season and he was playoff eligible then. Rules are a little different when converting Two-Way's to standard contracts. Anyone else though we need to sign before March 1st.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ish only has 10 games left on his 2 way contract so they will likely need to make a decision with him prior to the end of the season unless the start DNPing him.

Ideally we sign Stanley Johnson and if Ish outplays either Johnson or Bazley we convert him or have him for as long as we can for insurance purposes incase someone(looking at Warren) goes down with an injury. Anyone we bring on after March 1st wouldn't be playoff eligible so converting Ish would at least give the Suns another body.

Theoretically, I like the idea (or another player) but I don't think that would send the right message to Ish Wainright.

IMO, Stanley Johnson is not that much of an upgrade to sign to a regular roster spot.

Now, if the other player is a clear upgrade to Wainright, I'd do it and keep him on a two-way contract. I like having another player ready to go as insurance.

 

[SunsTzu]

We don't need to make a decision on Ish yet and don't need to adhere to the March 1st deadline because he's our Two-Way player. I believe his deal was converted in April of last season and he was playoff eligible then. Rules are a little different when converting Two-Way's to standard contracts. Anyone else though we need to sign before March 1st.

I said anyone we bring in, I didn't mean Ish who is already here.

Just to be clear, my preference is to get another player off the buyout market, which needs to be done prior to March 1st. Then if Ish outplays any of the deep bench guys, or if anyone get injured after March 1st we convert him.

 

[SunsTzu]

Theoretically, I like the idea (or another player) but I don't think that would send the right message to Ish Wainright.

IMO, Stanley Johnson is not that much of an upgrade to sign to a regular roster spot.

Now, if the other player is a clear upgrade to Wainright, I'd do it and keep him on a two-way contract. I like having another player ready to go as insurance.

The message it sends is this team is trying to win a championship and bringing in the best players possible. Johnson imo is the best player at a position of need and is a clear upgrade over Ish, and I'd also trust him more than Bazley.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's not at all accurate. And the logic here floors me. How is everyone just completely dismissing the facts about Kevin Durant's Achilles rupture and that he's 34 years old? I get that everyone here wants to win a championship and everyone believes that we probably weren't going to do that in the immediate future without major change and that sometimes you have to take a chance but we went far beyond just taking a risk.

Signing him off the street at his current salary for the next 3.5 years? That's risky. And it's a risk I would have taken. But doing that while also giving up Mikal, CamJ and Crowder goes several steps beyond risky. Then, throwing in 4 picks on top of it and not even getting protection for one or more of them, that's a setup for an SNL "Bad Idea Jeans" commercial minus the humor.

And winning it all won't change the fact that we got extremely lucky. With a strong wind blowing in, we closed our eyes and swung for the fences. Like everyone else here, I really hope that getting lucky is the result of this move. Regardless, we paid what would have been a fair price for a disgruntled superstar in his prime.

You were singing the same tune about CP3, about how much we mortgaged our future with a pick and Oubre for an oft-injured old PG who was always breaking down.

This team knew then what it knows now. That team, like this one had a ceiling and it wasn’t going to be anything close to a title without adding another superstar.

I'm not in the "everyone" category. I think there is more than a fair amount of risk in the trade. Including Bridges in the trade and the failure to include protection on any of the draft picks is a concern as well.

The Suns acquiesced to Brooklyn's every trade demand. IMO, this was the Suns new owner making a statement. I don't think James Jones would have made this move as formatted.

The counterargument seems to be the risk for a championship is worth it. Hopefully the Suns get at least one championship out of it like the Lakers did when they traded for Anthony Davis. Also, it appears some other teams were willing to include the draft picks but probably not the caliber of players the Suns included.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen what the Suns could have traded for using draft picks and expiring contracts. If necessary, I would have considered trading Cam Johnson but not Bridges. I don't think the Suns were that far away.

we lost by 30 points at home in the second round last year. And brought back a worse team this year. We weren’t close to winning a title.

 

[Mainstreet]

The message it sends is this team is trying to win a championship and bringing in the best players possible. Johnson imo is the best player at a position of need and is a clear upgrade over Ish, and I'd also trust him more than Bazley.

I'd prefer an upgrade over both if one is available.

I like Bazley's potential and the ability to play some minutes but nothing more at this stage.

 

[SunsTzu]

I'd prefer an upgrade over both if one is available.

I like Bazley's potential and the ability to play some minutes but nothing more at this stage.

I'd say that person is Johnson especially if his small sample size 3pt shot this year sticks. Honestly he is closer to Crowder than he is to Ish or Bazley.

 

[Mainstreet]

we lost by 30 points at home in the second round last year. And brought back a worse team this year. We weren’t close to winning a title.

I've been wanting the Suns to improve the team all season. Bringing the same team back was not the answer. The Suns needed to make more than a minor move at the trade deadline.

However, I would have liked to have seen the other options on the table that at least kept Bridges.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've been wanting the Suns to improve the team all season. Bringing the same team back was not the answer. The Suns needed to make more than a minor move at the trade deadline.

However, I would have liked to have seen the other options on the table that at least kept Bridges.

Major moves don’t happen without making major moves. Bridges was the only one who was going to be a cornerstone for a major move. A player of KD’s stature was never going to be moved for an oft-injured undersized sweet shooting PF who’s about to be an RFA and a bunch of picks the Nets fear might be late first rounders.

Teams aren’t just going to bend over and let the Suns put it where the Sun don’t shine just to please our fans. You have to give to get superstars. Plain and simple.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd say that person is Johnson especially if his small sample size 3pt shot this year sticks. Honestly he is closer to Crowder than he is to Ish or Bazley.

I would like more length at the power forward spot. I'm not opposed to Stanley Johnson. Just wonder how much of an improvement he is over Ish Wainright.

I don't mind the idea of letting them battle it. The Suns could use a less fragile team.

 

[Mainstreet]

Major moves don’t happen without making major moves. Bridges was the only one who was going to be a cornerstone for a major move. A player of KD’s stature was never going to be moved for an oft-injured undersized sweet shooting PF who’s about to be an RFA and a bunch of picks the Nets fear might be late first rounders.

Teams aren’t just going to bend over and let the Suns put it where the Sun don’t shine just to please our fans. You have to give to get superstars. Plain and simple.

I wasn't locked into trading for Durant at Brooklyn's asking price or adding another superstar. It would have been nice to see what other options were on the table, keeping Bridges.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If he wasn't willing to play they were not just going to sit on him.

Houston tried playing hard ball when Harden demanded his trade, they ended up getting squat, Philly tried playing hard ball when Simmons did, they ended up getting squat (fat Harden ironically), we still paid out the nose, and far more than any other team could offer.

I hope it works, it certainly increased our title odds, I just think it was a huge overpay.

These mega trades typically don't work and no one has coughed up this much for a dude in his mid 30s before.

Uh Houston got all star guard Oladipo, dante exum, kurucs, and four first round picks and four swaps for harden.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You were singing the same tune about CP3, about how much we mortgaged our future with a pick and Oubre for an oft-injured old PG who was always breaking down.

This team knew then what it knows now. That team, like this one had a ceiling and it wasn’t going to be anything close to a title without adding another superstar.

we lost by 30 points at home in the second round last year. And brought back a worse team this year. We weren’t close to winning a title.

You really misrepresent posters when you do this with no quotes and no context. And you do it often.

I wanted to keep Oubre and Rubio but neither player was a big deal to me and I made that point several times. In fact I valued the pick we were rumored to give up more than those two players. My concern about the rumored trade was about CP's salary and his injury history. And then, a few days before the trade was made, I changed my mind (and my posts reflected it) once the story came out that Booker was pushing for it. I still didn't like the trade but agreed we had to do it.

I'm too lazy to search but here's a comment from the day after the trade was announced.

Spoiler

From November 17th 2020: I agree that the pick has more value to us than the two throw-in guards but for me it's all about Paul, good or bad. If we get 2 years of the Chris Paul of last season, this is a good deal regardless of what happens in the future with the pick or the outgoing players. Neither of the two young guards or the pick are going to blossom soon enough to keep Booker in Phoenix (assuming that's even possible) and this was mostly about Devin.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, using "everyone" like that was just my lazy way of saying "a lot of posters". But I believe "everyone" would agree there's risk with this trade, where we differ is in the degree of risk.

I don’t even disagree with the risk of Durant. I get that risk. I disagree on two things:

1) the risk to the future. As he said multiple times, book and Ayton aren’t old, we will have a ton of cap space with a master recruiter, and every other first round pick.

2) the goal of chasing a championship is less risky with a Durant (even an older, injury-risk Durant) than it is hoping for unknown low-percentage future variables to fall into place to win a championship.