Durant to Suns

BirdGangThing

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lmao we're fans, we shouldn't have to know who would be a better coach, we just want to fire the coach because we're smarter than the coach and you never know, a new coach could be phil jackson, we just don't know who that new coach is but we're smart, smart enough to Monty has to go. Who cares about how the team would feel about it. We're smarter than them too. Anybody who doesn't agree doesn't want to win or they're just stupid or they have battered fan syndrome, derrr.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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People talking about firing coach Monty Williams before Durant even steps on the court smdh. Coach Monty one of the biggest reasons Durant even came here. Same Coach who along with Devin Booker helped turn this franchise around. Same Coach who beat Golden State and many others in the playoffs. Same coach who took this franchise to the Finals, like that isn't huge, like we always make the Finals. Best record in the League. Coach of the year. A coach this team absolutely loves.
When did monty beat golden state in the playoffs?

Not sure Ayton loves monty.

But sure, you’re on a roll. Go with it.
 

Chaplin

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lmao we're fans, we shouldn't have to know who would be a better coach, we just want to fire the coach because we're smarter than the coach and you never know, a new coach could be phil jackson, we just don't know who that new coach is but we're smart, smart enough to Monty has to go. Who cares about how the team would feel about it. We're smarter than them too. Anybody who doesn't agree doesn't want to win or they're just stupid or they have battered fan syndrome, derrr.
This doesn't seem to be a very productive way of conducting a conversation.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Like you said hypotheticals. It's a discussion board. Nobody is advocating fire Monty before Durant steps on the court. Also, nobody is denying how far Monty has taken this team. However, sometimes, a coach can only take a team so far. Have no clue if Monty had done what he can or he can win us the title with KD. We shall see. I don't advocate firing him unless he utterly fails with Durant on this team. I am not in the Monty haters club by any stretch.

Oh and this is also the same coach that had monumental collapse in the finals and one of the biggest embarrassments in league history finishing the season with the best record and getting bounced.

So, you have to call out both the good and the bad.
This
 

Cheesebeef

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lmao we're fans, we shouldn't have to know who would be a better coach, we just want to fire the coach because we're smarter than the coach and you never know, a new coach could be phil jackson, we just don't know who that new coach is but we're smart, smart enough to Monty has to go. Who cares about how the team would feel about it. We're smarter than them too. Anybody who doesn't agree doesn't want to win or they're just stupid or they have battered fan syndrome, derrr.
Never called anyone stupid. Never said Monty had to go right now.

You really don’t like having your opinion challenged, huh? Making up/projecting arguments on others or just making up lies like Monty beat GS in the playoffs to boost your own opinions doesn’t make for real good debate, so we can just agree to disagree and save the board from the flame war you’re seemingly itching to have.
 
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elindholm

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No one knew Steve Kerr was Steve Kerr when Mark Jackson was unceremoniously dumped for him. And he was dumped for a rookie Steve Kerr despite taking the Warriors from a 23 win team to the playoffs in year two with 47 wins and the 2nd round, then winning 51 games the next year and losing a heartbreaking 7 game series in the playoffs.

But the Warriors deemed that three year turnaround wasn’t good enough to win a title… that Jackson had maxed out and despite the major turnaround, went with a completely unproven Steve Kerr as Head Coach. In Kerr’s first year they won the Finals.

Again, a good GM knows when a coach has maxed out and should be able to find the right guy to get you over the top.

It's the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Sometimes when you dump a good coach for an unknown, the unknown wins, and you look like a genius. Other times, the unknown flops, but those cases are less memorable.

With a few exceptions like Popovich, I don't think there's any real difference between a good coach and a great one. The ones we call great are the ones that managed to get themselves into championship situations, or had the right voice for the right group of players at the right time. One of the great fallacies of sports, and of the NBA in particular, is that every outcome, once we know what it was, was the most correct or most likely probable outcome. If Team X wins the title, that's proof positive that they were the best team. It's a useful philosophy for bragging rights, because it's easy to define and there's no mechanism for challenging it. But to use it to create a mythical group of "great coaches" who somehow have a special magic that all other good coaches lack strikes me as naive.

To put it more simply, I don't think Monty Williams is anywhere near one of the biggest reasons that the Suns coughed up their 2-0 lead to the Bucks. If Saric hadn't gotten hurt, or Ayton hadn't lost his nerve, or Paul weren't a historic choker, or Antetokounmpo had needed just a little longer to recover from his injury, the Suns could have won. Would that have made Williams a "great" coach, instead of a merely good one?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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lmao we're fans, we shouldn't have to know who would be a better coach, we just want to fire the coach because we're smarter than the coach and you never know, a new coach could be phil jackson, we just don't know who that new coach is but we're smart, smart enough to Monty has to go. Who cares about how the team would feel about it. We're smarter than them too. Anybody who doesn't agree doesn't want to win or they're just stupid or they have battered fan syndrome, derrr.
So happy this guy found ASFN.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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It's the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. Sometimes when you dump a good coach for an unknown, the unknown wins, and you look like a genius. Other times, the unknown flops, but those cases are less memorable.

With a few exceptions like Popovich, I don't think there's any real difference between a good coach and a great one. The ones we call great are the ones that managed to get themselves into championship situations, or had the right voice for the right group of players at the right time. One of the great fallacies of sports, and of the NBA in particular, is that every outcome, once we know what it was, was the most correct or most likely probable outcome. If Team X wins the title, that's proof positive that they were the best team. It's a useful philosophy for bragging rights, because it's easy to define and there's no mechanism for challenging it. But to use it to create a mythical group of "great coaches" who somehow have a special magic that all other good coaches lack strikes me as naive.

To put it more simply, I don't think Monty Williams is anywhere near one of the biggest reasons that the Suns coughed up their 2-0 lead to the Bucks. If Saric hadn't gotten hurt, or Ayton hadn't lost his nerve, or Paul weren't a historic choker, or Antetokounmpo had needed just a little longer to recover from his injury, the Suns could have won. Would that have made Williams a "great" coach, instead of a merely good one?
You might have hit in something. Might not be a need for a great coach. But the “right voice for the right group of players at the right time” might be equally applicable here, no? When a really talented team just doesn’t get over the hump - particularly when they are favored to win it all (difficult to argue that wasn’t the case once we reached the finals up 2-0 and last year when similarly dominant teams had some insane record of winning it all, and likely this year if everyone is healthy) - I think it’s reasonable to believe they might need a different voice.
 

Cheesebeef

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You might have hit in something. Might not be a need for a great coach. But the “right voice for the right group of players at the right time” might be equally applicable here, no? When a really talented team just doesn’t get over the hump - particularly when they are favored to win it all (difficult to argue that wasn’t the case once we reached the finals up 2-0 and last year when similarly dominant teams had some insane record of winning it all, and likely this year if everyone is healthy) - I think it’s reasonable to believe they might need a different voice.
This makes sense to me.
 

Phrazbit

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lol the reinforcements have arrived

It's harmless debate. I don't know that anyone on this board is in total agreement with anyone else on this board on any topic. You can expect to have virtually any take you have to be challenged by multiple people.

If you just want a community of fans who are totally bullish on everything... you're probably in the wrong spot. If you want to have debates, then there isn't a better Suns forum I've found, but don't get ticked off when your opinions get challenged.
 

BirdGangThing

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It's harmless debate. I don't know that anyone on this board is in total agreement with anyone else on this board on any topic. You can expect to have virtually any take you have to be challenged by multiple people.

If you just want a community of fans who are totally bullish on everything... you're probably in the wrong spot. If you want to have debates, then there isn't a better Suns forum I've found, but don't get ticked off when your opinions get challenged.
I'm good, don't mind the debate or the duo. Dude said I sounded like a battered fan so I said what I thought he sounded like, no biggie. Monty Williams is one of the best, if not the best coaches we've ever had. If someone wants to say we can do better without being able to say how, it's all good. I'm just ready for some basketball
 

Mainstreet

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Kevin Durant will be evaluated on a game-by-game basis.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

PHI PHX PHAN

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*Lights cig*
*Adjusts tie*
*Steps back into the line of fire*

I think Monty isn't judged properly (a la our Center) and it's due to the circumstances of their tenure changing drastically very early in the process and extremely wild expectations being attached.
Monty got here on the cusp of Booker publicly being frustrated with not making the postseason and much speculation on if he would even stay here due to the lack of success.
He walked into that scenario, adjusting to covid and the slew of issues that situation provided alone; all while trying to evaluate a perennial lottery team (13-21 wins) that had finally made their 2nd good pick in years, another promising player and a stopgap PG who was basically acquired more out of desperation to convince Book that they could improve.
That's the 1st year...
The bubble happens and they string together some wins that provided hope that they could at least try to push for just simply making the playoffs the next year (like an 8th seed at best).
Enter oft injured CP3 in the waning years of his career (yet fresh off his impact with a young core in OKC) with the hopes of achieving that same goal here.
He ends up playing the most games he has in 5 years, massively overachieve from the fringe team and they make a magical run to the finals.
Unrealistic expectations consume a fanbase that hasn't seen success in over a decade.
The next year they have the best record. Unrealistic expectations are doubled down upon.

We end up here...

Monty is judged by not winning a chip after turning around a sub 500 team in a 2 year span. Yes the subsequent endings were disappointing but he has far exceeded the expectations and I don't know of another coach ever who has accomplished what he is judged by. He is a victim of his extremely quick success coupled with those unrealistic expectations. He legit should've been Coach of the year 2 years straight.

I think it's wild that folk think that they can even remotely make the presumption of if he is a championship coach after 2 playoff berths.

*Pulls up blindfold*
*Puffs cig*
 

BirdGangThing

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*Lights cig*
*Adjusts tie*
*Steps back into the line of fire*

I think Monty isn't judged properly (a la our Center) and it's due to the circumstances of their tenure changing drastically very early in the process and extremely wild expectations being attached.
Monty got here on the cusp of Booker publicly being frustrated with not making the postseason and much speculation on if he would even stay here due to the lack of success.
He walked into that scenario, adjusting to covid and the slew of issues that situation provided alone; all while trying to evaluate a perennial lottery team (13-21 wins) that had finally made their 2nd good pick in years, another promising player and a stopgap PG who was basically acquired more out of desperation to convince Book that they could improve.
That's the 1st year...
The bubble happens and they string together some wins that provided hope that they could at least try to push for just simply making the playoffs the next year (like an 8th seed at best).
Enter oft injured CP3 in the waning years of his career (yet fresh off his impact with a young core in OKC) with the hopes of achieving that same goal here.
He ends up playing the most games he has in 5 years, massively overachieve from the fringe team and they make a magical run to the finals.
Unrealistic expectations consume a fanbase that hasn't seen success in over a decade.
The next year they have the best record. Unrealistic expectations are doubled down upon.

We end up here...

Monty is judged by not winning a chip after turning around a sub 500 team in a 2 year span. Yes the subsequent endings were disappointing but he has far exceeded the expectations and I don't know of another coach ever who has accomplished what he is judged by. He is a victim of his extremely quick success coupled with those unrealistic expectations. He legit should've been Coach of the year 2 years straight.

I think it's wild that folk think that they can even remotely make the presumption of if he is a championship coach after 2 playoff berths.

*Pulls up blindfold*
*Puffs cig*
good stuff man
 

Cheesebeef

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*Lights cig*
*Adjusts tie*
*Steps back into the line of fire*

I think Monty isn't judged properly (a la our Center) and it's due to the circumstances of their tenure changing drastically very early in the process and extremely wild expectations being attached.
Monty got here on the cusp of Booker publicly being frustrated with not making the postseason and much speculation on if he would even stay here due to the lack of success.
He walked into that scenario, adjusting to covid and the slew of issues that situation provided alone; all while trying to evaluate a perennial lottery team (13-21 wins) that had finally made their 2nd good pick in years, another promising player and a stopgap PG who was basically acquired more out of desperation to convince Book that they could improve.
That's the 1st year...
The bubble happens and they string together some wins that provided hope that they could at least try to push for just simply making the playoffs the next year (like an 8th seed at best).
Enter oft injured CP3 in the waning years of his career (yet fresh off his impact with a young core in OKC) with the hopes of achieving that same goal here.
He ends up playing the most games he has in 5 years, massively overachieve from the fringe team and they make a magical run to the finals.
Unrealistic expectations consume a fanbase that hasn't seen success in over a decade.
The next year they have the best record. Unrealistic expectations are doubled down upon.

We end up here...

Monty is judged by not winning a chip after turning around a sub 500 team in a 2 year span. Yes the subsequent endings were disappointing but he has far exceeded the expectations and I don't know of another coach ever who has accomplished what he is judged by. He is a victim of his extremely quick success coupled with those unrealistic expectations. He legit should've been Coach of the year 2 years straight.
The idea that it was unrealistic to expect a great playoff run last year after going to the Finals the year before AND THEN looking even BETTER during last season just makes no sense to me. If fans and the organization doesn’t have the expectation of major success while being the defending Western Conference Champion AND having the best record in the league by 8 games, then that franchise should never have expectations of anything.

And last year wasn’t a matter of simply not meeting expectations. Last year ended in abject embarassment… a collapse of epic proportions capped by the most pathetic Game 7 performance of all time where we became a punchline to the entire league against a woefully undermanned Mavs team that would then go on to get pulverized by GS one round later.

I think it's wild that folk think that they can even remotely make the presumption of if he is a championship coach after 2 playoff berths.

*Pulls up blindfold*
*Puffs cig*

Again, NO ONE here has said Monty is NOT a championship coach. Those questioning him are to a man saying he’s a GOOD coach but jury is out on if he can achieve greatness. Those of us in this place want to see what Monty does for the third time coming into the playoffs with expectations before they can definitely speak to how good of a coach he really is. And this has been repeated time and time and time again.

creating straw men to bolster your argument just isn’t necessary and only serves to derail an other lively debate.
 

elindholm

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And last year wasn’t a matter of simply not meeting expectations. Last year ended in abject embarassment… a collapse of epic proportions capped by the most pathetic Game 7 performance of all time where we became a punchline to the entire league against a woefully undermanned Mavs team that would then go on to get pulverized by GS one round later.

I agree that last year's playoff exit was an epic collapse, and one that rightfully put Williams on the ropes. The decision to enter this season with minimal roster changes was questionable, but it didn't seem that there were better alternatives.

Now there's a big roster change, but the question is health. If the team is healthy and bombs in the playoffs again, then it makes sense to roll the dice with a new coach and hope to get lucky. If the team is too injured to show what they can do, then replacing Williams is likely to do as much harm as good. We give Booker (and maybe Paul) credit for recruiting players to join the Suns, but Williams deserves some of that credit too. Now that they've made the big roster move that improves their immediate title chances, everyone who has bought in deserves one legitimate opportunity to see if it can work.
 

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