Durant to Suns

[Chaplin]

I believe he's signed thru 2023-24. Are we going to ask some rando to hold our beer for a year after canning one of the best coaches in the league on the hopes Nick Nurse will leave his home and the team he built to come to coach a team that fired Monty Williams?

With Toronto floundering, cheese was speculating that he will either quit or be fired this summer. I thought that was pretty clear in his post.

 

[Cheesebeef]

With Toronto floundering, cheese was speculating that he will either quit or be fired this summer. I thought that was pretty clear in his post.

Tried to make it as clear as possible.

 

[Phrazbit]

Frank Vogel is mediocre. Yeah, his Pacer teams had a couple nice runs while the East was still hot garbage, I don't think anyone viewed them as a conteder to win a title, even when they made the ECF. His teams have also missed the playoffs entirely 4 times in his passed 7 seasons.

Disagree that Budenholzer is mediocre, he's a really good coach. He's not only got the Bucks top players playing their best but he's revived the careers of some questionable guys.

I'd say Doc Rivers isn't exactly special as a coach. I think Monty might be in his category. More of a mentor than an Xs and Os guy.

I don't even know if I'd call Rudy T mediocre, I think he's below that, he had an all-time great, a super deep roster and a helluva lot of luck to get those 2 titles and outside of that his career sucked.

I also would NOT go for Ty Lue if we part with Monty.

I think Monty does not quite deserve the level of flak he gets here. You don't go 50-0 with 4th quarter leads if you're a terrible Xs and Os coach. I also don't fault him for the outcome against the Bucks, that was a hard fought series that we were just a couple plays from winning despite the best player, by far, playing for the other team.

But that Dallas series was a baaaaaad look for him. I hope sometime down the road we get the juice on what went down, that was an epic collapse.

 

[BirdGangThing]

With Toronto floundering, cheese was speculating that he will either quit or be fired this summer. I thought that was pretty clear in his post.

So we're going to replace a winning coach with a floundering coach, got it. I'm sure the team would be stoked about that. And this is all assuming he gets canned... and that he wants another job immediately. What could possibly go wrong with that plan

 

[Chaplin]

So we're going to replace a winning coach with a floundering coach, got it. I'm sure the team would be stoked about that. And this is all assuming he gets canned... and that he wants another job immediately. What could possibly go wrong with that plan

Nobody said he will, just that it’s a possibility after getting posed the question of how would possibly be a fit.

 

[Covert Rain]

So we're going to replace a winning coach with a floundering coach, got it. I'm sure the team would be stoked about that. And this is all assuming he gets canned... and that he wants another job immediately. What could possibly go wrong with that plan

I think you are focusing too much on this singular option. You asked for example, and he gave you one. Cheesebeef is right. It's not his job to figure that out. The point being is that you can't keep going with a coach that comes up short with this talent just because you might personally perceive there isn't a better option.

 

[BirdGangThing]

I think you are focusing too much on this singular option. You asked for example, and he gave you one. Cheesebeef is right. It's not his job to figure that out. The point being is that you can't keep going with a coach that comes up short with this talent just because you might personally perceive there isn't a better option.

These are opinions, hypotheticals, and in some cases far fetched dreams being expressed - not sure how there's a right or a wrong here but whatever you say lol I'm just glad y'all ain't calling the shots

 

[BirdGangThing]

People talking about firing coach Monty Williams before Durant even steps on the court smdh. Coach Monty one of the biggest reasons Durant even came here. Same Coach who along with Devin Booker helped turn this franchise around. Same Coach who beat Golden State and many others in the playoffs. Same coach who took this franchise to the Finals, like that isn't huge, like we always make the Finals. Best record in the League. Coach of the year. A coach this team absolutely loves.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If we have another playoff failure, making three straight years of such, that is the definition of being broke if your goal is to win a title.

Settling for good enough isn’t good enough for me. That’s a low bar for any franchise and a mindset that will ensure it never gets the ultimate prize, IMO.

Yeah. I get it. The coach who turns it around might not be the guy to take you to the promised land. I am just not sure that is the case here. If there is a failure in the playoffs this year, and it's not about injuries, then maybe. But then only if there is a better option in the bag. Steve Nash is not a better option. Nick Nurse might be, but there is no guarantee he will be available.

 

[Proximo]

LOL… first, The rest of those teams were solid? His starters around him were Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe and CHUCKY FREAKING BROWN for their first title.

That is EASILY the worst starting five in NBA Championship history. They had a solid yet wildly inconsistent rookie Cassel off the bench and Horry as a rookie role player and Elie as an irritant. But that was IT.

The next year, they remade their team on the fly and he figured out how to integrate Drexler into the mix and then went on the road in every series to beat a 61 win team Jazz team, 59 win Suns, 62 wins Spurs and 57 win Magic with Shaq and Penny as complete young studs.

And as laughable as the idea was that the Rockets were solid all around Hakeem in his first title is even more
Laughable in the face of the the argument that they were like the Duncan era Spurs. The idea that they were in ANY WAY like the Spurs who had an eventual Hall Of Famer startung next to Duncan with Robinson still producing at an All-Star level in 1999 or the one with Robinson, prime Manu and a rookie Parker is laughable.

Yes they were. Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell were all great role players. They played as a team perfectly - that's what I mean when I say they were similar to the spurs. Maybe that was due to coaching - but Rudy wasn't my suggestion.

They beat the Suns, who came damn close to beating the Bulls in the finals the year before - one of the best teams of all time.

I don't think you understand how good Hakeem was, those two or three years the only comparable player I had ever seen up to that point was Jordan.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This is a fun series....

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[Covert Rain]

People talking about firing coach Monty Williams before Durant even steps on the court smdh. Coach Monty one of the biggest reasons Durant even came here. Same Coach who along with Devin Booker helped turn this franchise around. Same Coach who beat Golden State and many others in the playoffs. Same coach who took this franchise to the Finals, like that isn't huge, like we always make the Finals. Best record in the League. Coach of the year. A coach this team absolutely loves.

Like you said hypotheticals. It's a discussion board. Nobody is advocating fire Monty before Durant steps on the court. Also, nobody is denying how far Monty has taken this team. However, sometimes, a coach can only take a team so far. Have no clue if Monty had done what he can or he can win us the title with KD. We shall see. I don't advocate firing him unless he utterly fails with Durant on this team. I am not in the Monty haters club by any stretch.

Oh and this is also the same coach that had monumental collapse in the finals and one of the biggest embarrassments in league history finishing the season with the best record and getting bounced.

So, you have to call out both the good and the bad.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes they were. Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell were all great role players. They played as a team perfectly - that's what I mean when I say they were similar to the spurs. Maybe that was due to coaching - but Rudy wasn't my suggestion.

They beat the Suns, who came damn close to beating the Bulls in the finals the year before - one of the best teams of all time.

I don't think you understand how good Hakeem was, those two or three years the only comparable player I had ever seen up to that point was Jordan.

I totally understand how good Hakeem was. but again, they were nothing like the Spurs in terms of talent. He was basically a one man band his first year they won the title. Literally, the only player i think to win a title without at least one other All-Star next to him. And again, you're proving my point for me... that team beat the Suns with nothing but one all-time great and role players. To think Rudy T didn't have much to do with that completely ignores how much of an afterthought the Rockets were for YEARS before he started coaching there.

Previous to Rudy T, they had guys like Vernon Maxwell and Otis to go along with Hakeem and were a non-entity, going 41-41, 52-30 and 42-40 before Rudy T took over. His FIRST year as HC, they won 55 games, took that awesome 57 win Shawn Kemp/Payton team to 7 games and was 1 Sam Perkins 3 pointer away from facing us in the WCF. Then they went on to win the next two titles.

To give Rudy T no credit for that turnaround when they were mediocre AF before he got there is a total rewrite and misunderstanding of NBA history.


That

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah. I get it. The coach who turns it around might not be the guy to take you to the promised land. I am just not sure that is the case here. If there is a failure in the playoffs this year, and it's not about injuries, then maybe. But then only if there is a better option in the bag. Steve Nash is not a better option. Nick Nurse might be, but there is no guarantee he will be available.

Nash definitely ain't it.

 

[Phrazbit]

I totally understand how good Hakeem was. but again, they were nothing like the Spurs in terms of talent. He was basically a one man band his first year they won the title. Literally, the only player i think to win a title without at least one other All-Star next to him. And again, you're proving my point for me... that team beat the Suns with nothing but one all-time great and role players. To think Rudy T didn't have much to do with that completely ignores how much of an afterthought the Rockets were for YEARS before he started coaching there.

Previous to Rudy T, they had guys like Vernon Maxwell and Otis to go along with Hakeem and were a non-entity, going 41-41, 52-30 and 42-40 before Rudy T took over. His FIRST year as HC, they won 55 games, took that awesome 57 win Shawn Kemp/Payton team to 7 games and was 1 Sam Perkins 3 pointer away from facing us in the WCF. Then they went on to win the next two titles.

To give Rudy T no credit for that turnaround when they were mediocre AF before he got there is a total rewrite and misunderstanding of NBA history.


That

Prior to his ascension Rockets had been a constant presence in the playoffs from the moment they got Hakeem, 7 straight years in the playoffs, including a finals trip.

He won 2 titles because he had the best player in the league and a very deep roster.

Once Hakeem faded, even a bit, the Rockets were a non factor for the rest of his coaching career, not winning a series his final 6 years, not making the playoffs his final 4.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

While I believe good coaching can make an impact, the idea that any NBA coach is incapable of winning a title with the right roster to me seems like baloney. Enough talent can transcend coaching and has in the past.

But having that much talent is a rarity. Doug collins was a good coach. He couldn’t win a championship with Jordan, pippen, and grant.

Tony dungy was a terrific coach. He couldn’t win a super bowl with a stacked bucs team.

Sometimes you need another level coach to get over the hump.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It’s one measure, yes.

But a really good coach for me has also done well in multiple stops, creating contenders wherever he’s gone, if not winning the title.


We’re discussing it because even though most of us believe we have a good coach, we also believe we don’t have a GREAT coach. And the overwhelming majority of the time, titles are won by great talent and great coaching.

This team IS talented enough to be one of the exceptions to the rule, but if healthy and they lose, that’s going to make Monty look terrible… for the third year in a row in the playoffs.

I think Monty is the equivalent of the Del Harris/Doug Collins/Brian Hills of the world. Good coaches that can get their team to a certain point, but not over the hump when he has to match wits and make adjustments when an opposing coach figures us out.

ALL OF THIS

 

[Mainstreet]

Kevin Durant and Suns are eyeing next Wednesday return against Hornets with 20 games left in the regular season.

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[JCSunsfan]

Kevin Durant and Suns are eyeing next Wednesday return against Hornets with 20 games left in the regular season.

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Well. These guys are all going to be fresh for the playoffs. Book, CP3, and Durant will have had lots of rest this season.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well. These guys are all going to be fresh for the playoffs. Book, CP3, and Durant will have had lots of rest this season.

I guess if one equates injury to rest.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bottom line is this. If Durant, Book and CP3 is mostly healthy with Ayton to boot and he can’t get it done?

Monty is never going to win a title as a HC. If that’s the case, it’s completely fair to look elsewhere if the team’s goal is to win a title.

The jury is still out on Monty for me. The ending to this season is going to be the deciding factor for me. I guess I could be talked into the idea that Monty needs a full season with Durant but I am not sure I buy that. We shall see.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bottom line is this. If Durant, Book and CP3 is mostly healthy with Ayton to boot and he can’t get it done?

Monty is never going to win a title as a HC. If that’s the case, it’s completely fair to look elsewhere if the team’s goal is to win a title.

The jury is still out on Monty for me. The ending to this season is going to be the deciding factor for me. I guess I could be talked into the idea that Monty needs a full season with Durant but I am not sure I buy that. We shall see.

It will take a Steve Kerr. No, no "a" Steve Kerr. The actual guy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lots of reading, and after all that you just deflect to say you’re not a GM.

I do like the Nurse idea. He’s probably tops.

I also think Ty Lue and Willie Green would be great replacements.

It’s not really deflection. It’s true. None of us on this board have the time, resources or experience to pick the perfect guy. None of us would’ve known who Phil Jackson was when he was tabbed to replace collins. But Krause knew and pulled the trigger instead of running it back with collins.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It will take a Steve Kerr. No, no "a" Steve Kerr. The actual guy.

No one knew Steve Kerr was Steve Kerr when Mark Jackson was unceremoniously dumped for him. And he was dumped for a rookie Steve Kerr despite taking the Warriors from a 23 win team to the playoffs in year two with 47 wins and the 2nd round, then winning 51 games the next year and losing a heartbreaking 7 game series in the playoffs.

But the Warriors deemed that three year turnaround wasn’t good enough to win a title… that Jackson had maxed out and despite the major turnaround, went with a completely unproven Steve Kerr as Head Coach. In Kerr’s first year they won the Finals.

Again, a good GM knows when a coach has maxed out and should be able to find the right guy to get you over the top.

If Monty flounders in the playoffs again, I sure as hell hope this front office isn’t too chicken-ish to actually try and win a championship. That doesn’t happen by repeating the same mistakes of the past repeatedly. We all want this to be a Championship Organization, right? The only way you become one of those is you demand the best of yourself and when you haven’t gotten there, you do whatever it takes to do so.

The “we can’t do any better than Monty” narrative reads like nothing more than classic battered fan syndrome. We’ve been atrocious for so long that someone good comes along and he’s put on some kind of unassailable pedestal… DESPITE the fact that he delivered us probably the greatest collapse in Suns history in the Finals and then one of the biggest embarrassments not just in Suns history… but literally, in the history of the NBA with that shambolic, putrid performance in Game 7 that was mocked by the entire sports world.

He’s a good coach… who’s got some pretty big warts. Personally, I think jury’s out and this post-season will tell me everything I need to know if KD and Book are healthy.

But I think he’s much closer to a Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Del Harris, Brian Hill than he is to a Steve Kerr, Jackson or Pop… or even a Spoelstra. And unless you have overwhelming talent the likes of which the NBA has rarely seen, you’re usually gonna need a great coach to grab the ultimate prize.

 

[Phrazbit]

No one knew Steve Kerr was Steve Kerr when Mark Jackson was unceremoniously dumped for him. And he was dumped for a rookie Steve Kerr despite taking the Warriors from a 23 win team to the playoffs in year two with 47 wins and the 2nd round, then winning 51 games the next year and losing a heartbreaking 7 game series in the playoffs.

But the Warriors deemed that three year turnaround wasn’t good enough to win a title… that Jackson had maxed out and despite the major turnaround, went with a completely unproven Steve Kerr as Head Coach. In Kerr’s first year they won the Finals.

Again, a good GM knows when a coach has maxed out and should be able to find the right guy to get you over the top.

If Monty flounders in the playoffs again, I sure as hell hope this front office isn’t too chicken-ish to actually try and win a championship. That doesn’t happen by repeating the same mistakes of the past repeatedly. We all want this to be a Championship Organization, right? The only way you become one of those is you demand the best of yourself and when you haven’t gotten there, you do whatever it takes to do so.

The “we can’t do any better than Monty” narrative reads like nothing more than classic battered fan syndrome. We’ve been atrocious for so long that someone good comes along and he’s put on some kind of unassailable pedestal… DESPITE the fact that he delivered us probably the greatest collapse in Suns history in the Finals and then one of the biggest embarrassments not just in Suns history… but literally, in the history of the NBA with that shambolic, putrid performance in Game 7 that was mocked by the entire sports world.

He’s a good coach… who’s got some pretty big warts. Personally, I think jury’s out and this post-season will tell me everything I need to know if KD and Book are healthy.

But I think he’s much closer to a Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Del Harris, Brian Hill than he is to a Steve Kerr, Jackson or Pop… or even a Spoelstra. And unless you have overwhelming talent the likes of which the NBA has rarely seen, you’re usually gonna need a great coach to grab the ultimate prize.

Jackson probably would have retained that job if he hadn't gone... insane.

Every time his name gets tossed around in the press for a HC opening I am flabbergasted, I cannot fathom any team handing him the keys again.

It will take an epic failure for Monty to get canned this summer. But I agree, Monty taught a young team how to be pros, how to maintain a level of play that the league requires and how to play sound, team, basketball, on both ends, but that might be where he tops out. If we don't win the title he will be on super thin ice heading into next season.

Regardless of how things pan out, he played a huge role in the team escaping the pits of despair.