Durant to Suns

[Covert Rain]

I really don't believe the ones that did the analysis ignored the risk. IMO that analysis was the reason we couldn't get the deal done. Until Ishbia disregarded it and overruled JJ. And I seriously expect that we will eventually learn that he leaned heavily on input from his basketball idol in making this overcall.

There is no proof that Ishiba overuled JJ. In fact during the interview with JJ on 98.7 JJ seemed to be all in on KD since the first trade go around. He mentioned they did everything they could to make it work the first time but never could get over the hump with the Nets. It sounded more like to me he was insinutating that Sarver intervened.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We pretty much agree eye-to-eye about the Suns giving up too much in the trade for Durant. I've been trying to move past it but it's been hard.

I keep reading the linked article below, which contains an interview with new Suns owner Mat Ishbia. I guess I don't think the Suns made the right decision based upon the best available information. Do I hope I am wrong? Every day. I think there is plenty of risk.

I felt the Suns were very close to a championship, and a lesser trade could have got them there without sacrificing a huge chunk of their future.

Chris Mannix Feb 21, 2023, Sports Illustrated:

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/02/21/mat-ishbia-suns-mercury-owner-interview

Despite what I've been saying recently, on an emotional level I've moved past the decision too except for the idea that we won't know whether it was a sound trade until the future unfolds.

The saving grace here is that Ishbia doesn't seem like the type of owner who will all of a sudden start paying a premium to reduce player salary (Kurt Thomas) or giving up draft picks for pocket change. I think this deal though will likely fail and I'm hoping that Ishbia will learn from this and start taking his advice from more capable advisors.

 

[Covert Rain]

There is no proof that Ishiba overuled JJ. In fact during the interview with JJ on 98.7 JJ seemed to be all in on KD since the first trade go around. He mentioned they did everything they could to make it work the first time but never could get over the hump with the Nets. It sounded more like to me he was insinutating that Sarver intervened.

JJ was spearheading trying to get KD in the Summer. You can clearly see he was all in even under Sarver. If JJ didn't want him I doubt he would have engaged the Nets the first time or took their call the second time. I think where Isbia came in is the willingness to include certain draft picks. Not if they wanted to trade for Durant.

“My sense was they didn’t want to trade him, they wanted to explore and do everything they could to try and get a really good player, one of the greatest ever, to remain with the franchise. … When circumstances changed, I think they just felt it was best to move on.

“And they re-engaged. You never really know whether or not any of these things will get done but I was more confident this time than I was in the summer that we could get it across the finish line.”

 

[Covert Rain]

Despite what I've been saying recently, on an emotional level I've moved past the decision too except for the idea that we won't know whether it was a sound trade until the future unfolds.

The saving grace here is that Ishbia doesn't seem like the type of owner who will all of a sudden start paying a premium to reduce player salary (Kurt Thomas) or giving up draft picks for pocket change. I think this deal though will likely fail and I'm hoping that Ishbia will learn from this and start taking his advice from more capable advisors.

By the way Steve I get why you feel the way you do. If you come in here with a big fat I told you so in three years or if his career ends? I won't blame you. LOL.

 

[Mainstreet]

"You make the decision with the best available information you have at the time, you make the decision and then you run with it and you try to make it work."

This seems to say it all to me.

Other basketball minds can differ using the same criteria.

Kevin Durant didn't play in 2019-20 season.

He only played 35 regular season games in the 2020-21 season, 55 games in the 2021-22 season and 42 games thus far in the 2022-23 season.

Still, like every Suns fan, I'm hoping the Suns catch the crest of the wave.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And this is what gets me here. If you take a shot from 60 feet with 20 seconds left on the clock while trailing by 1 point, that's a bad shot whether you make it or not. You can be happy after the fact if it wins the game but it doesn't change the fact you unnecessarily risked the outcome on a huge long shot.

Durant's health history, even without the fact that his Achilles injury makes him more prone to lower body injuries than other players, means he's a huge risk. IMO just swallowing KD's salary should have given the Brooklyn Nets enough return on the deal to make it worthwhile (not that they'd see it that way). But every asset we included just made the deal that much worse. KD is great when he plays the game but he's great at NOT playing the game too.

I’m sorry, usually i think you’ve got good arguments. This is patently ridiculous.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes we do, that's been my point all along. We have his age and history of injuries along with the medical evidence on basketball players following an Achilles rupture available. Yet we apparently either ignored those facts or we choose to gamble even though the odds were well against us.

And the idea that we had to make this trade because we've never had a title seems misguided to me. How many times have you seen a team succeed by trading away key players and a bunch of picks for an injury riddled superstar near the end of his career? Some team wins an NBA title every single season but I can't recall a single time the winner did something like this.

Actually we don’t. You’ve oversimplified your argument to strengthen it. We don’t have KD’s medicals. Want to bet the suns got those in advance?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course we made the deal in hopes of winning a title, I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about the analysis they either didn't do or (more likely) disregarded when the new owner said make the deal anyway.

If we'd included Booker instead of CamJ would you finally say, hell no? Or would you still say, there's no predicting the future and we have never won a title so we have to take a risk? We both know the answer. I'm just saying given the risks our outgoing package was already well past the reasonable point. You're disagreeing. Anything else is smoke and mirrors.

Steve, the level of arrogance inherent in this statement is outside of your norm if you’re failing to recognize it.

 

[Phrazbit]

I can say these 2 things without needing insider information:

No one has ever given up so much for a player in their mid 30s.

No one has ever given up so much for a player with such an injury history.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I’m sorry, usually i think you’ve got good arguments. This is patently ridiculous.

I thought it was a questionable gamble at the time they gave him that deal. He's being paid an average of more than 48 Million a year to be available in half his games. That's a huge overpayment IMO but they got away with it. Because of us. This isn't arrogance or me being patently ridiculous.

I wasn't suggesting we could have made a trade in that manner, merely that it should have factored into our offer. He hasn't earned his contract to date. And we paid a premium to get him and his contract.

 

[wagonmound464]

I can say these 2 things without needing insider information:

No one has ever given up so much for a player in their mid 30s.

No one has ever given up so much for a player with such an injury history.

^ I agree,,,, and the Twins are playing so well in Brooklyn, Bridges tossing in nearly 30 pts per game.
The Suns gave up a lot with those two players moving east. May, I say may,,,come back to bit 'em
in the azz? I hope not!

 

[Phrazbit]

This part of my thinking does require speculation…

We should’ve held their feet to the flames. Supposedly the deal would’ve happened in the summer if we had made this very same offer, but we were not willing to include bridges. The Nets situation changed dramatically. That offer should have remained off the table.

But it is what it is, hopefully Durant gets healthy and we get a title or three out of it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Monty talks about Kevin Durant. He is relieved the injury isn't more serious.

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[Covert Rain]

Monty talks about Kevin Durant. He is relieved the injury isn't more serious.

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This makes me think the time is more precautionary. They want to make sure he is 100% which is good news. It's not a serious injury.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This make me thinks the time is more precautionary. They want to make sure he is 100% which is good news. It's not a serious injury.

Same. Reading that made me feel better and he’ll be ready with at least a couple weeks before the season.

 

[GatorAZ]

I’m a strong advocate of the deal but idk how anyone can deny the backfire potential. We’ve already seen risks after one week of him playing.

This deal reminds me of the AD trade. The Lakers gave up Ingram, Hart and Ball which was equal or better than the Twins plus picks/swaps. The Lakers got a title out of it so no matter how many times AD gets hurt it was worth it. It’s no different for the Suns. Ishbia probably could’ve still got the deal done had he been able to keep our pick this year to further improve the roster so I agree that we overpaid. I think they maybe compromised on leaving the 26’ pick swap out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I’m a strong advocate of the deal but idk how anyone can deny the backfire potential. We’ve already seen risks after one week of him playing.

This deal reminds me of the AD trade. The Lakers gave up Ingram, Hart and Ball which was equal or better than the Twins plus picks/swaps. The Lakers got a title out of it so no matter how many times AD gets hurt it was worth it. It’s no different for the Suns. Ishbia probably could’ve still got the deal done had he been able to keep our pick this year to further improve the roster so I agree that we overpaid. I think they maybe compromised on leaving the 26’ pick swap out.

Gotta agree. Huge advocate of the trade but there is no doubt of backfire potential. We’re definitely in AD land for the near future but the sky is falling about the long term future is what I just can’t agree with. The Lakers have no future because LeBron is 38 years old. We’re still going to be able to build around in their prime Booker/Ayton in three years. That’s why I don’t think this move is catastrophic even if we never win a title.

 

[TJ]

I’m a strong advocate of the deal but idk how anyone can deny the backfire potential. We’ve already seen risks after one week of him playing.

This deal reminds me of the AD trade. The Lakers gave up Ingram, Hart and Ball which was equal or better than the Twins plus picks/swaps. The Lakers got a title out of it so no matter how many times AD gets hurt it was worth it. It’s no different for the Suns. Ishbia probably could’ve still got the deal done had he been able to keep our pick this year to further improve the roster so I agree that we overpaid. I think they maybe compromised on leaving the 26’ pick swap out.

If the Suns win one title and suck for 5 years while Mikal and Cam become all-stars, it'll still be worth it. Scared money dont make money

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Despite what I've been saying recently, on an emotional level I've moved past the decision too except for the idea that we won't know whether it was a sound trade until the future unfolds.

The saving grace here is that Ishbia doesn't seem like the type of owner who will all of a sudden start paying a premium to reduce player salary (Kurt Thomas) or giving up draft picks for pocket change. I think this deal though will likely fail and I'm hoping that Ishbia will learn from this and start taking his advice from more capable advisors.

You’re making big assumptions about a very successful man’s decision making - a dude who hasn’t been here long enough to know anything about him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can say these 2 things without needing insider information:

No one has ever given up so much for a player in their mid 30s.

No one has ever given up so much for a player with such an injury history.

Has a player of KDs age, production, injury history ever been traded? This is a fairly unique fact set.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I thought it was a questionable gamble at the time they gave him that deal. He's being paid an average of more than 48 Million a year to be available in half his games. That's a huge overpayment IMO but they got away with it. Because of us. This isn't arrogance or me being patently ridiculous.

I wasn't suggesting we could have made a trade in that manner, merely that it should have factored into our offer. He hasn't earned his contract to date. And we paid a premium to get him and his contract.

The thought the nets would let him go solely as salary dump was patently ridiculous (what I bolded). We know they were demanding assets.

And yes the statement that they didn’t do analysis or ignored it is an arrogant statement from anyone who as exactly zero insight what they did or didn’t do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’m a strong advocate of the deal but idk how anyone can deny the backfire potential. We’ve already seen risks after one week of him playing.

This deal reminds me of the AD trade. The Lakers gave up Ingram, Hart and Ball which was equal or better than the Twins plus picks/swaps. The Lakers got a title out of it so no matter how many times AD gets hurt it was worth it. It’s no different for the Suns. Ishbia probably could’ve still got the deal done had he been able to keep our pick this year to further improve the roster so I agree that we overpaid. I think they maybe compromised on leaving the 26’ pick swap out.

I don’t think there’s anyone denying the backfire potential.

 

[Proximo]

Has a player of KDs age, production, injury history ever been traded? This is a fairly unique fact set.

True nothing similar has happened. This risk is precisely why I turned against the deal if Mikal was involved.

As they pointed out on the radio with Durant's extremely bad recent injury history, even if we still make the playoffs and Durant comes back in time for the playoffs - odds are actually only 50/50 or less he can make it through an entire playoff run without getting injured again.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Gotta agree. Huge advocate of the trade but there is no doubt of backfire potential. We’re definitely in AD land for the near future but the sky is falling about the long term future is what I just can’t agree with. The Lakers have no future because LeBron is 38 years old. We’re still going to be able to build around in their prime Booker/Ayton in three years. That’s why I don’t think this move is catastrophic even if we never win a title.

Exactly. We kept our best and third (at the time perhaps second) best players and they aren’t old.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

True nothing similar has happened. This risk is precisely why I turned against the deal if Mikal was involved.

As they pointed out on the radio with Durant's extremely bad recent injury history, even if we still make the playoffs and Durant comes back in time for the playoffs - odds are actually only 50/50 or less he can make it through an entire playoff run without getting injured again.

Has he not played 28 straight games at any time in recent years? That’s what would be required.