East Valley Tribune: Suns might be active in free agent market

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

As a general rule, I would rather focus on upgrading the weakest position than to do a max deal on a position that is already pretty strong.

There's where you misstep. Not because you want to upgrade, but because you want to upgrade the so-called "weakest" postion, which is, of course, center. And it is virtually impossible to upgrade at center right now in the NBA. Impossible.

 

[Billythekid]

Originally posted by newfan101
It may win you games, but it doesn't win you championships. I hate to get into this debate again, but 1 or 2 super, elite, or as elindholm puts it, "r00lers" wins championships, not a bunch of nice smart players. Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, etc..... were all at the top of the game, and that's why they have rings. Dallas, as nice as they are, will never win a championship with their current roster.

I did state in my post if you'd read the top, i would rather have good solid players and a few real good players... real good players... being just that. Duncans, Shaq etc.

So i agree that you have to have some super elite players to win championships. i just don't put much into, in terms of... how many 'allstars' a team has. So i totally agree. Elite players, above and beyond allstars wins games, and championships... in most cases.

 

[elindholm]

And it is virtually impossible to upgrade at center right now in the NBA.

Without overpaying, you mean, and hindering all of your other improvement efforts in the process. The Suns could offer Greg Ostertag $7 million a year and that would probably be an "upgrade," at least a modest one, but it would still be a bad idea.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Yeah I don't think trying to find a Center is the way to go for us if we want to win a championship... Players like McGrady, Kobe...and to a lesser extent Pierce, Iverson, Carter etc give us a better chance even if we aren't week in that position. If getting someone like Okur hurts us in getting one of those guys I wouldn't go for him...

 

[devilalum]

The last time the Suns had a bunch of cap room they were gonna sign McNugget and barely got Googs.

I hope they have a better plan this time but there's no way they have anything set lined up. Its gotta be something like "Lets get ready so if something good comes along we can jump on it."

The bottom is that the Suns dumped salaries to save money. Unless something great falls into their lap we're all looking at a very long tunnel with an extremely small light at the end.

 

[Chaz]

To win a championship I think you need a minimum two great players. That is players that can compete at a high level on both ends of the floor and are able to create good shots in the offense. You also need a solid cast of role players and more than a bit of luck.

I think it is possible we have two players that can fill that description. The question is how long will it take and can we wait. Some solid role players may just what this team needs. I don't see anyone coming up in FA that is worth paying huge money for.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by devilalum
The last time the Suns had a bunch of cap room they were gonna sign McNugget and barely got Googs.

But at the time, we had nobody comparable at all to McDyess. He should have been signed.

 

[creed]

I dont know about Kobe anymore because last I read the Lakers can offer more money...something like close to 20 million more over the life of the contract. Lakers can offer him the most so unless Kobe REALLY hates the Lakers then he'll stay put.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by creed
I dont know about Kobe anymore because last I read the Lakers can offer more money...something like close to 20 million more over the life of the contract. Lakers can offer him the most so unless Kobe REALLY hates the Lakers then he'll stay put.

It's not that he hates the Lakers--it's if he hates Shaq. And not only that, it's if he hates the fact that Shaq is unquestionably the leader of the team, and not Kobe.

I seriously doubt Kobe is ok with that. The only reason I see him NOT opting out is not because of the Lakers, but because of his trial and the fact that he's not having that great of a season this year.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Originally posted by SirChaz
To win a championship I think you need a minimum two great players. That is players that can compete at a high level on both ends of the floor and are able to create good shots in the offense. You also need a solid cast of role players and more than a bit of luck.

I think it is possible we have two players that can fill that description. The question is how long will it take and can we wait. Some solid role players may just what this team needs. I don't see anyone coming up in FA that is worth paying huge money for.

Did the Spurs really have two great players last year?

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by SunCardfan
Did the Spurs really have two great players last year?

Their other great player was Chris Webber's knee.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by fordronken
Their other great player was Chris Webber's knee.

And Shaq's fat.

 

[Chaz]

Both previous points taken. They were fortunate (the luck part) to face the Mavs and not the Kings.

I guess Duncan along with Manu, Jackson, and Parker was enough. Parker played great.

Parker was the catalyst that filled in last year and generated shots for them. He averaged almost 15 ppg for the playoffs. The only other Spur in double figures, besides Duncan and Parker, was Jackson.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SirChaz
Both previous points taken. They were fortunate (the luck part) to face the Mavs and not the Kings.

I guess Duncan along with Manu, Jackson, and Parker was enough. Parker played great.

Parker was the catalyst that filled in last year and generated shots for them. He averaged almost 15 ppg for the playoffs. The only other Spur in double figures, besides Duncan and Parker, was Jackson.

The Spurs also had a guy named Robinson. He was no longer a great player for the entire game, but he was great in short spurts like crunch time. That is the main reason the Spurs are not anywhere close to being as good as they were a year ago.

In any case, it is very very difficult to become a winner by signing extremely high cost FA's. The ideal approach is to grow your own. The Suns have some really promising young players like Stoudemire, Johnson, Barbosa, and hopefully Lampe and Vujanic who have the talent to really really good. Their maturity will define how quickly the Suns become a major player.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
The Spurs also had a guy named Robinson. He was no longer a great player for the entire game, but he was great in short spurts like crunch time. That is the main reason the Spurs are not anywhere close to being as good as they were a year ago.

In any case, it is very very difficult to become a winner by signing extremely high cost FA's. The ideal approach is to grow your own. The Suns have some really promising young players like Stoudemire, Johnson, Barbosa, and hopefully Lampe and Vujanic who have the talent to really really good. Their maturity will define how quickly the Suns become a major player.

Unless I am missing somebody every team to win the championship since the Detroit Pistons has done so with one or more of the top one or two players in the NBA on their team.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal/Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Unless I am missing somebody every team to win the championship since the Detroit Pistons has done so with one or more of the top one or two players in the NBA on their team.

Exactly. And with officials enforcing more and more the league's TV-motivated "star system," with different rules for different players, this trend figures to continue for the forseeable future.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Unless I am missing somebody every team to win the championship since the Detroit Pistons has done so with one or more of the top one or two players in the NBA on their team.

Exactly. And with officials enforcing more and more the league's TV-motivated "star system," with different rules for different players, this trend figures to continue for the forseeable future.

Which is exactly why some of us (like you and me Eric) are in favor of signing Kobe Bryant, if possible. Circumstances, of course, have to merit such a signing, but if the possibility is there, we MUST jump on it.

We're going to end up overpaying SOMEBODY, that is a statistical probability. Might as well be one of the top 5 players in the league.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Unless I am missing somebody every team to win the championship since the Detroit Pistons has done so with one or more of the top one or two players in the NBA on their team.

Exactly. And with officials enforcing more and more the league's TV-motivated "star system," with different rules for different players, this trend figures to continue for the forseeable future.

This suggests that the Suns should spend less on coaching and more on PR.

Historically, the key to getting into the finals has been to have a strong overall team and a great big man. A few teams have done it with a guard oriented team, but in the last 50 years you can count very few teams other than the Bulls that pulled it off.

The reason the Pistons were successful was the discovery by Chuck Daly that the refs wouldn't call as many fouls in the playoffs as they do during the season. So he collected a group of thugs to beat up opposing big men to the point that the usual big man domination was overcome. The Bulls carried that on to slightly less blatant extend, but otherwise the bigs dominated.

This is why Amare is so important to the future of the Suns. He has the physical talent to be a great big man. The question now is whether he has the discipline and drive to get to that level.

In any case, Amare will need serious help on the inside just as Duncan had Robinson along with some competent outside guys.

 

[elindholm]

Historically, the key to getting into the finals has been to have a strong overall team and a great big man.

You can repeat this as many times as you like, but it still won't be true.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Historically, the key to getting into the finals has been to have a strong overall team and a great big man.

You can repeat this as many times as you like, but it still won't be true.

Would you care to list the teams with average inside guys that have won the championship?

During the 80's, the Lakers had Kareem whose sky hook was one of the absolutely unstoppable shots in the game. The Celtics had McHale, one of the greatest PF's to ever play and Parish who would be in the top five centers if he was playing today. The other team to win it was Philadelphia with a guy named Moses Malone.

In the 60's, the Celtics had Russell, the greatest defensive center of his era and one of the greats of all time. The Lakers won when they got Chamberlin.

There were a couple of teams in the 70's that did not have "great" big men although the '75 Warriors are the only one that immediately comes to mind. They had a couple of decent second tier centers and Wilkes at PF. I did not pay as much attention to the NBA during the 70's so maybe I'm missing someone.

Even if you can name another team in the 70's that did not have a dominating inside guy, I'm not sure it would be enough to dispute my basic position.

 

[elindholm]

Would you care to list the teams with average inside guys that have won the championship?

Would you care to explain why you've eliminated the range between "great" and "average"?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Would you care to list the teams with average inside guys that have won the championship?

Would you care to explain why you've eliminated the range between "great" and "average"?

Eric, you're such a r00ler!!

Or maybe, you're such a t00l... ??

Those double-zeros are confusing.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Would you care to list the teams with average inside guys that have won the championship?

Would you care to explain why you've eliminated the range between "great" and "average"?

Parish with the Celtics was not great, but he was very good. The centers for the 1975 Warriors were average for the period, but would be more highly rated now because of the decline in quality big men. Wilkes was very very good offensively but not great overall.

Generally, most teams have had at least two second tier big men and usually a top tier guy. Even the Bulls had a very very good player in Rodman, even if he was pretty one dimensional - but 16 rpg is still out of the ordinary.

But I'm open. Give me your examples.

 

[Errntknght]

Probably one of the 'weakest' front courts to ever win a title was the Sonics with Jack Sikma at center. I don't remember their PF's name but I recall him quite clearly and he was not a dominating force by any means. Oh, now it comes back to me, Lonnie Shelton. One thing that helped was that they had John Johnson at SF - he was powerful and tough. I meant weakest in terms of not having great individual credentials - as a group they defended the paint very well. Their best player was perennial all-star, Dennis Johnson at guard.

Incidentally Chuck Daly didn't discover that the refs allowed more physical play during the playoffs than during the regular season - I can't remember any time when that wasn't true and well known to anyone who followed the league. So that goes back to the fifties for sure and probably before that as well.

 

[elindholm]

Generally, most teams have had at least two second tier big men and usually a top tier guy.

Well basically, you've now reduced your original statement of

"Historically, the key to getting into the finals has been to have a strong overall team and a great big man."

to something like

"Generally, teams need to have at least one very good player at PF or C in order to be successful."

I agree with the second statement, but not with the first. There is quite a world of difference between them.