Elmer stinks!
- Thread starter mark1
- Start date
I called him Elmer Fudd when we traded for him, and somebody said I was immature so I stopped it. Management had their head up their butt by getting a journeyman 32 year old average major league pitcher with a career ERA of 4.31 and expected him to be an upgrade at the number 3 spot in the rotation. It seems like everybody but Diamondback management knew that Elmo wasn't the answer. Now he is signed through 2005 and I'm afraid we are stuck with Rick Helling Armando Reynoso part two. And the fact that he has the most wins of any member of our starting staff makes me want to toss my breakfast.
AzKarl
Veteran
Don't totally agree
Elmer is not a #3 on a staff of this quality and is more realistically a #4 or #5. He is much better than Helling and has better stuff and more velocity. The fielding behind him was butchery yesterday, and he should have been out of the inning if Baerga turns two and Dellucci hits a cutoff man on an outfield throw. Dessens has been somewhat inconsistent at times but yesterday his 5 runs given up was more a function of poor field support as anything. I feel it is much too soon to declare him a bust and I will wait to evaluate his entire year before reaching any conclusions.
You guys will be the same guys hopping on the bandwagon if they put on a huge winning streak in the middle to second half of the year. I share the same frustrations about our lack of consistent lineup punch and lack of timely hitting but, I am not putting the D-backs on the scrap heap in May for crying out loud.
Elmer is not a #3 on a staff of this quality and is more realistically a #4 or #5. He is much better than Helling and has better stuff and more velocity. The fielding behind him was butchery yesterday, and he should have been out of the inning if Baerga turns two and Dellucci hits a cutoff man on an outfield throw. Dessens has been somewhat inconsistent at times but yesterday his 5 runs given up was more a function of poor field support as anything. I feel it is much too soon to declare him a bust and I will wait to evaluate his entire year before reaching any conclusions.
You guys will be the same guys hopping on the bandwagon if they put on a huge winning streak in the middle to second half of the year. I share the same frustrations about our lack of consistent lineup punch and lack of timely hitting but, I am not putting the D-backs on the scrap heap in May for crying out loud.
Forrestham
Freebird62
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Yes you are right that the defense has not been good behind Dessens but he does need to pitch better. Brandon Webb has looked like a solid number 3, not Desssens. Elmers Era is now over 5. I agree with someone else. This team needs to get a couple of more bats and bench or release an unproductive SS and 3B
AzKarl
Look up the stats. Elmer has an era of 5.03 so far this year and the league is hitting .290 off him. Helling's ERA last year was 4.51. These two guys are almost identical in every statistical category including age.
Elmer
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5640
Helling
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5207
I think their twins
Look up the stats. Elmer has an era of 5.03 so far this year and the league is hitting .290 off him. Helling's ERA last year was 4.51. These two guys are almost identical in every statistical category including age.
Elmer
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5640
Helling
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5207
I think their twins
AZZenny
Registered User
One thing I'll say about Elmer as opposed to his earlier incarnations Alpo and Helling - Elmer doesn't complain, and he doesn't make excuses. He doesn't have the sense of humor and energy of BA, though.
Why the heck he looked so darn good in ST and now is so inconsistent is bothersome, but Batista was the reverse, and now is having one of his little troughs. Elmer's not a #3, he's a #5, always was.
It's the contract extensions and rates to unproven guys, or so-so guys like Elmer, Q, Brenly
, that get to me. Joe * Jr. doesn't seem quite hard-nosed enough.
Why the heck he looked so darn good in ST and now is so inconsistent is bothersome, but Batista was the reverse, and now is having one of his little troughs. Elmer's not a #3, he's a #5, always was.
It's the contract extensions and rates to unproven guys, or so-so guys like Elmer, Q, Brenly
, that get to me. Joe * Jr. doesn't seem quite hard-nosed enough. RLakin
All Star
Durazo hit his 8th HR and drove in 36th run last night. It's funny, we're starting to hear some comparisons in attitude of Kim to Durazo, which (I guess) is the worst insult that you can hand out in this organization. So now the berating of Kim begins. He has no heart. He is not dedicated to the team. I even heard Dave Burns say that he is not a "gamer."
Yeah, because coming back from the worst streak of 9th inning meltdowns since Mitch Williams wouldn’t qualify one as that. Neither would successfully converting from closer to starter and outperforming every pitcher on the staff in the 1st month of 2003, and only having one win to show for it. You would think that a guy with as poor an attitude as Kim would probably complain loudly about losing the majority of his games through no fault of his own. Yet he didn’t. Ditto for Durazo in Oakland this year. Seems to fit in real well this year. Far cry from the injury-prone, pouting clubhouse cancer that we were always hearing about.
The more of this crap that I hear from the Diamondbacks, the more I think that this team has becoming a sewing circle of older, mediocre, ballplayers who despise young talent almost as much as they do good offense. Pitching and defense will cure all, even if we have to put "Meaningless" Matt Williams and/or Danny "I’ve never hit for power" Bautista in the middle of our lineup. But at least those guys are "gamers," which seems to have leapfrogged "gamebreakers" on the D-Backs list of priorities.
So go ahead and blast Kim for his lack of work ethic and questionable concentration. Question his character and try to knock down his value as much as you did Durazo’s. That way you can get another Albie Lopez/Elmer Dessens/Rick Helling/Armando Reynoso. That’s just what this team needs. Less talent and more mediocre "gamers."
Yeah, because coming back from the worst streak of 9th inning meltdowns since Mitch Williams wouldn’t qualify one as that. Neither would successfully converting from closer to starter and outperforming every pitcher on the staff in the 1st month of 2003, and only having one win to show for it. You would think that a guy with as poor an attitude as Kim would probably complain loudly about losing the majority of his games through no fault of his own. Yet he didn’t. Ditto for Durazo in Oakland this year. Seems to fit in real well this year. Far cry from the injury-prone, pouting clubhouse cancer that we were always hearing about.
The more of this crap that I hear from the Diamondbacks, the more I think that this team has becoming a sewing circle of older, mediocre, ballplayers who despise young talent almost as much as they do good offense. Pitching and defense will cure all, even if we have to put "Meaningless" Matt Williams and/or Danny "I’ve never hit for power" Bautista in the middle of our lineup. But at least those guys are "gamers," which seems to have leapfrogged "gamebreakers" on the D-Backs list of priorities.
So go ahead and blast Kim for his lack of work ethic and questionable concentration. Question his character and try to knock down his value as much as you did Durazo’s. That way you can get another Albie Lopez/Elmer Dessens/Rick Helling/Armando Reynoso. That’s just what this team needs. Less talent and more mediocre "gamers."
schillingfan
All Star
Well, see I recognize this behavior by a club very well - it's as you say what they do when they wish to get rid of somebody and know it won't sell with the fans - so they start disparaging the person's attitude and character.
Phillies did this with Curt Schilling and Scott Rolen - that Bob Ford column that trashed Curt is the residue of the "whispers" that the Phillies put around. Never mind that it diminishes the value of the player you want to trade, the teams are unwilling to take the heat for what are largely fiscal decisions - as will be trade of BK when it happens since he has two arbitration years and he will be traded for a pre-arb player I presume.
But I disagree with your assessment that the D-Backs despise young talent. To the contrary, there is nothing they would rather do than play their young cheap talent than have to pay Matt Williams and Tony Womack their millions. They can't get out of that, though. The D-Backs want to go young and cheap, I'm sure of that, they are trying to balance the fan favorites of Gonzo and Randy's salaries with the youngsters to get a payroll that they can afford.
RLakin
All Star
I disagree with your disagreeing w/ me. Keeping Johnson and Gonzalez makes sense, since you want to have two (pitcher and batter) showcase ballplayers The Steve Finley re-signing is something different, however, and I think it proves that there is still a veteran mentality around here. This is somewhat true for Grace, but, as I have said, I think it was more Colangelo stepping in to keep a marketable and charismatic character in the organization.
moviegeekjn
Registered
Disagreeing with your disagreement with Shillingfan here
Perhaps you haven't read Bob Nightengale's May 7 article in the USA Today Sports Weekly that quotes Jerry Colangelo:
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schillingfan
All Star
Then RLakin explain the fact that they traded Damian Miller for two bags of balls and are playing two pre-arbitration catchers.
They could have kept Durazo and not played Overbay. Gracie was signed as a bench player and to mentor Overbayand to keep fans happy. They don't want Williams or Womack and they'll be gone. They let Jay Bell walk and he signed on the bench with the Mets. Greg Swindell was sent to the minors in favor of Steven Randolph. Steve Finley is the exception and that's mostly because of the lack of center field options in the minors - a real area of shortage.
D-Backs are slasly payroll. Next year it will be closer to $70 mil. That's down from over $100 mil last year. By definition that means youth not veterans.
They could have kept Durazo and not played Overbay. Gracie was signed as a bench player and to mentor Overbayand to keep fans happy. They don't want Williams or Womack and they'll be gone. They let Jay Bell walk and he signed on the bench with the Mets. Greg Swindell was sent to the minors in favor of Steven Randolph. Steve Finley is the exception and that's mostly because of the lack of center field options in the minors - a real area of shortage.
D-Backs are slasly payroll. Next year it will be closer to $70 mil. That's down from over $100 mil last year. By definition that means youth not veterans.
RLakin
All Star
All are good points. I was very happy to see the D-Backs start an infusion of youth on the pitching staff. Point granted. Hitters, however, are still up there in age and I don't think this organization has been as eager to integrate the youth in that department.
Look at the additions/re-signings this off-season: re-sign Mark Grace 38, Finley 38, McCracken (32) call up Overbay (26), sign Baerga (34), keep Barajas (27), and Moeller 28
Now the subtractions: Durazo (29), Miller (33), Colbrunn (33), Bell (37)
It’s key to look at the ages of the catchers. Although pre-arbitration, they’re both pretty old for 1st year starters. Ditto (somewhat) for Overbay, who is only 3 years younger than Durazo. That’s if you ever considered Durazo the starter in the 1st place. Younger, Yes. Significant youth movement, hardly.
Your point about Finley I don’t think is very good. The D-Backs had three capable replacements in CF (Dellucci, Bautista, McCracken, not to mention the kid Terrero), and I think that rotation could have been as productive as their catcher platoon. It’s called maximizing your payroll, a must for a team that is planning on moving down into the $70 million range. Speaking of which, this team would be very smart to retain just one of their current catchers for next year. Robbie Hammock would be a valuable reserve ( a poor man’s Eli Marrero) and it would give the team much more flexibility and, more importantly, more money.
Regarding Colangelo, I did not see the article, but the information it presented is hardly new. I’ve heard Colangelo say this several times this year, and I hope he’ll follow through. Keep in mind, Colangelo also said the D-Backs would be "changing the plan" this off-season and adding right-handed bat. I did not see either.
Look at the additions/re-signings this off-season: re-sign Mark Grace 38, Finley 38, McCracken (32) call up Overbay (26), sign Baerga (34), keep Barajas (27), and Moeller 28
Now the subtractions: Durazo (29), Miller (33), Colbrunn (33), Bell (37)
It’s key to look at the ages of the catchers. Although pre-arbitration, they’re both pretty old for 1st year starters. Ditto (somewhat) for Overbay, who is only 3 years younger than Durazo. That’s if you ever considered Durazo the starter in the 1st place. Younger, Yes. Significant youth movement, hardly.
Your point about Finley I don’t think is very good. The D-Backs had three capable replacements in CF (Dellucci, Bautista, McCracken, not to mention the kid Terrero), and I think that rotation could have been as productive as their catcher platoon. It’s called maximizing your payroll, a must for a team that is planning on moving down into the $70 million range. Speaking of which, this team would be very smart to retain just one of their current catchers for next year. Robbie Hammock would be a valuable reserve ( a poor man’s Eli Marrero) and it would give the team much more flexibility and, more importantly, more money.
Regarding Colangelo, I did not see the article, but the information it presented is hardly new. I’ve heard Colangelo say this several times this year, and I hope he’ll follow through. Keep in mind, Colangelo also said the D-Backs would be "changing the plan" this off-season and adding right-handed bat. I did not see either.
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