Ex-NBA player John Amaechi to come out publically

LakeShowMan

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Actually, one of the hardest things to accept is intolerance, but the truly accepting are able to make accommodations. The strength of the "freedom" in this country, at least by traditional theory, comes from the right to hold unpopular positions, including ones that can be characterized as bigoted or prejudiced. Realize that if you cannot tolerate someone else's bigoted opinion, you have become intolerant yourself.


Somewhat agree. However, me believeing someone is wrong for being intolerant or ignorant is one thing. It is totally different issue that there are people out there that send death threats, or belittle, or injure, or oppress another person because of their race, religion, sexual orentaition, etc.

I believe in free speech. I believe in varying opinions. I don't believe in people infringing on others rights, well being, or safety due to ignorant, bigoted, attitudes.

I really believe there is a huge difference, and I don't see how that makes me intolerant, maybe idealistic though.
 

Mainstreet

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Everyone is prejudiced in some way, shape or form. The key is to know it and for each person to be willing to compensate and intelligently deal with their own weaknesses. Then change is possible.
 

Esther

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Realize that if you cannot tolerate someone else's bigoted opinion, you have become intolerant yourself.

I totally agree with you. I believe there can be no true tolerance without loss of meaning, because that means nobody stands up for anything anymore.

Homosexuals are a big deal in sports because atheletes are very close to their teammates. I am a woman and I relate to my girlfriends differently than my guy friends. That's just the way it is, no matter how the society tries to sell you the idea that men are women are the same(?!) Male bonding is a big part of men's sports and if you can't relate to a man as a man in that environment then there are issues. It has nothing to do with tolerance.

Say, if you are a woman, would you go in to the shower with a man who promise you he will have no lustful thoughts?
 

elindholm

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It is totally different issue that there are people out there that send death threats, or belittle, or injure, or oppress another person because of their race, religion, sexual orentaition, etc.

I believe in free speech. I believe in varying opinions. I don't believe in people infringing on others rights, well being, or safety due to ignorant, bigoted, attitudes.

That's certainly correct. The thing is, the article said precious little about threats on Amaechi's safety. I'm not saying there weren't any, but the main emphasis seemed to be on general prejudice and stereotyping.
 

elindholm

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Say, if you are a woman, would you go in to the shower with a man who promise you he will have no lustful thoughts?

If you can find women interested in performing that experiment, sure, I'll make that promise.
 

Mainstreet

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I totally agree with you. I believe there can be no true tolerance without loss of meaning, because that means nobody stands up for anything anymore.

I totally agree about the issues of tolerance. However, there is one weak link. If intolerant people take power they have no tolerance for differing opinons and try to stifle such.
 

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I totally agree with you. I believe there can be no true tolerance without loss of meaning, because that means nobody stands up for anything anymore.

Homosexuals are a big deal in sports because atheletes are very close to their teammates. I am a woman and I relate to my girlfriends differently than my guy friends. That's just the way it is, no matter how the society tries to sell you the idea that men are women are the same(?!) Male bonding is a big part of men's sports and if you can't relate to a man as a man in that environment then there are issues. It has nothing to do with tolerance.

Say, if you are a woman, would you go in to the shower with a man who promise you he will have no lustful thoughts?

You do realize that as a woman, men most likely have lustful thoughts of you even if you are just walking down the street, right?

No matter what you do, nobody can control other's thoughts. What difference does it make what thoughts other people have of you, as long as those aren't acted on in a way that violates someone's personal rights?

As far as male bonding in sports or any other medium, a person's sexual orentation shouldn't be a factor, although I understand that it could be. However, in a same-sex forced group atmosphere, I think people would be surprised at how accepting people can be as long as they respect each other.

An example, I was in a fraternity when I was in college. Obviously, any time you have a group of 60 or so people you are going to have divergent feelings, opinions, tastes, etc. Regardless, to be a succesful fraternity, whether in intramural sports, campus activities, or whatever, you need to have a certain amount of male bonding. You obviously have cliques and what not, and you also have groups of people that may not see eye to eye, yet you all still have to work together and spend a lot of time together. Also, I would argue that a fraternity of a bunch of guys between the age of 18-24, is about as tosterone-charged of an environment as you will find anywhere, at least I know my fraternity was.

Anyway, we had a guy that was as all-american as they get. One of the best atheletes in the greek system, great student, was a leader to the nth degree (both in the fraternity and on campus). He was always able to do great things in the fraternity, and was as respected as anyone that ever stepped foot in the house. He wasn't in my immeadiate close group of friends in the house, but he was among the group of us that did a lot together even when we didn;t have to. We all partied all the time, played sports all the time, played drinking games all the time, everything. He was what anyone would consider a man's man.

His last year in, he came out to some of us. Now, I am not going to lie, there were some people that distanced themselves from him. Also, once it came out, the news spread through our fraterninty (and greek community as whole) pretty quickly. Obviously those that have issues towards differing lifestyles were a-holes about it from time to time. However, on a whole, he was accepted because of what a great guy he was. I was especially surprised, because I know for a fact that he changed a lot of opinions of people that were very homophobic.

I think a lot of people in my fraternity (me included) learned that just because a guy happens to be gay, doesn't make him less of a man. I know through stereotypes, a lot of people believe that all gay people are like Jack McFarland from Will & Grace or Big Gay Al from South Park. Pleasantly enough though, I have found that people that may have at one time been ignorant, can have their opinions changed once they have actual life experience from which to draw. I highly doubt that anyone that was in my fraternity at the time, didn't have some sort of new perspective on what constitutes a 'gay' person.

More on subject, if someone in the NBA that was a star came out, and most people in the league knew that guy was better than them on the court, do you really think there would be people thinking they couldn't relate to him as a man?
 

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I totally agree with Divide et Impera. I wake up everyday and I just feel ashamed to call myself an American, because there are flawed people in this country. We have so many people that are just so ignorant, instead of being highly enlightened and morally correct. I can't believe that in this day and age there are still people that generalize about whole groups of people, and criticize others just because they have a different lifestyle or set of beliefs. Thanks for having the courage to come out and say what you have, Divide et Impera. It's JUST WRONG to generalize and hate whole groups of people. Except if they are Mormons. Then it's perfectly acceptable.
Hah!
 

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That's certainly correct. The thing is, the article said precious little about threats on Amaechi's safety. I'm not saying there weren't any, but the main emphasis seemed to be on general prejudice and stereotyping.

Very true, I guess I an the previous poster were more commenting on the death threats and that sort of thing. Prejudice and stereotyping, will always be part of the human psyche.
 

Skkorpion

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Everyone is prejudiced in some way, shape or form. The key is to know it and for each person to be willing to compensate and intelligently deal with their own weaknesses. Then change is possible.

Well put.
 

Esther

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You do realize that as a woman, men most likely have lustful thoughts of you even if you are just walking down the street, right?

Well, that is kind of my point. If a straight guy looks at women lustfully most of the time, what makes one think that a gay guy does not do the same to men most of the time?

Anyway, we had a guy that was as all-american as they get. One of the best atheletes in the greek system, great student, was a leader to the nth degree (both in the fraternity and on campus). He was always able to do great things in the fraternity, and was as respected as anyone that ever stepped foot in the house. He wasn't in my immeadiate close group of friends in the house, but he was among the group of us that did a lot together even when we didn;t have to. We all partied all the time, played sports all the time, played drinking games all the time, everything. He was what anyone would consider a man's man.

I am not saying being gay is less of a man in the sense of abilities or character. I was thinking things like, for example, very rarely do I have a guy put his arms around me even in casual situations. But girls can hug me all they want. I also would confide in a girl more intimate issues that I would not normally tell a guy. These things does not take away from either sexes. And in this way, I can understand how a gay guy's teammates would feel awkward, and I don't think that has to do with discrimination or prejudice.
 

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Well, that is kind of my point. If a straight guy looks at women lustfully most of the time, what makes one think that a gay guy does not do the same to men most of the time?

As a gay man, I can assure you that you can. Having been in those situations most of my life, whether in the locker room, frat house, etc, it is entirely possible, and likely to NOT look at your teammates in a sexual way. My teammates/fraternity brothers etc were exactly that - teammates/good friends, and were treated that way. Yes, I had teammates/fraternity brothers/good friends that if I met them in a gay bar(not knowing them), yeah, I'd have been interested in them, but since they were friends/teammates, those thoughts didn't occur to me.
 

LakeShowMan

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Well, that is kind of my point. If a straight guy looks at women lustfully most of the time, what makes one think that a gay guy does not do the same to men most of the time?

I think the point is, what difference does it make what people think? It would be an issue if they acted on it, but thoughts don't hurt anyone.


I am not saying being gay is less of a man in the sense of abilities or character. I was thinking things like, for example, very rarely do I have a guy put his arms around me even in casual situations. But girls can hug me all they want. I also would confide in a girl more intimate issues that I would not normally tell a guy. These things does not take away from either sexes. And in this way, I can understand how a gay guy's teammates would feel awkward, and I don't think that has to do with discrimination or prejudice.

I don't see how it would not be discrimination or prejudice. Look, there is a great article on just this subject from page 2. It is from a guy that I previously linked in this thread. This one is about an openly gay guy that plays college football. Read what his teammates think about the subject. I am sure if a guy in any of the pro sports came out, and everyone respected the guy, it would be very similar. I think the big issue would be ignorant fans.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=granderson/070213

Ability is the issue -- not orientation
By LZ Granderson
Page 2

Last week, in reaction to John Amaechi's revealing his sexual orientation, I wrote a column suggesting, among other things, that an openly gay player in a major sport would not have as hard a time as some people think. While most of the e-mails I received agreed with the sentiment, I kept reading a variation of this question: How are straight players supposed to act with a gay teammate in the shower? Translation: the gay guy is going to be checking out teammates and trying to have sex with them.

The fact that defensive end Adam Goslin is gay isn't an issue at Washington University in St. Louis.That certainly was Shavlik Randolph's concern when he said "as long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine." While I find it comical that straight players like Shav are so delusional they believe everybody wants to see them naked, I can understand the concern. After all, this ain't Europe. Here nudity means sex. That's one of the reasons some guys feel it's necessary to gay bash in the locker room -- they want all the naked men around them to know they are not thinking about sex. This overreaction is similar to the one that prevents guys from saying another guy is attractive, as if the admission means they want to sleep with him.

Juvenile, yes, but it is what it is.

And the truth is men know men -- a straight guy in a locker room full of women is going to look, so it's safe to assume a gay guy in a locker room full of men is going to do the same.

Or not.

Meet Adam Goslin, a senior at Washington University in St. Louis. Goslin, a DL on the football team, is not on the DL -- he's openly gay. His family knows, his friends know, the entire football team knows. "Goose," as they call him, started telling folks on campus he was gay around his sophomore year.

"I was really scared at first because I had some really good friends on the team and didn't want to lose them," Goose said. "But after I told the first person, it was easier to tell the next one."

Eventually the word spread and before long even the waterboy knew Goose was gay.

"I didn't get it at first," says running back Scottie Guthrie, the first guy on the team who knew. "My mom had gay friends, but I had never met an openly gay man before. But after a minute or so it was no big deal. I mean, it was Goose -- he's like my best friend."

But dude, what about the shower?

"That's one of the things that cracks me up when people talk about gay teammates," Guthrie says. "How is it that the straight guys are the ones who feel threatened? I mean, what do they think is going to happen, the guy is going to rape them or something? If anything I think it's the gay guy who would feel awkward in that situation."


Joe Lubelski is from Chesterland, Ohio, a small town of about 3,000. He says he's never met a gay person in his life before Goose and was shocked to think one could play football.

"The shower thing popped in my head at first," Lubelski said. "You know, wondering if he was going to look at me or something, but then I realized just how stupid it was to be worried about taking a shower next to somebody. Especially a friend and a teammate.

"I've heard what some of the pros say and I think they are all commenting on things they hadn't really thought of or something they hadn't had to deal with. Here we had to deal with it and for the most part the players are very accepting because it just doesn't matter. A gay teammate is a teammate first and foremost. I'm sure there are some guys who are still a little nervous or whatever, but people are going to realize that another person's personal life has no effect on their life. Especially in the shower, I mean, come on … "


Arden Farhi, a shortstop on the school's baseball team, met Goslin when Goose played baseball his sophomore year. He said Goslin's sexuality wasn't an issue on that team either and calls the whole shower discussion absurd.

Goslin also played baseball during his sophomore year at Washington."I mean seriously, what kind of bull---- excuse it that?" Farhi says. "Do the pros really feel threatened in that situation? I can't imagine that they do. What, do they honestly think someone's going to stare at them, or try to attack them or something like that? I know for sure Goose is the one who feels weird and changes quickly and tries to get out of there as soon as possible."

Is that true Goose?

"Being the gay one, you already feel a little awkward because you want to make sure the guys are comfortable," he says. "I've had some teammates joke and say, 'Hey, you checking me out? What do I need to work on?' but it's all in fun. But really, after the game or practice all I want to do is take a shower, clean up and get some food."

So, you never checked out another guy in the locker room?

"No, never. It's not like that."

Have you ever had a crush on a teammate?

"No way. These are my teammates and this is football."

Not even a little crush?

"When you are playing sports, you see these guys every day for months and they become your brothers," he says. "So asking me if I ever had a crush on a teammate is like asking me if I've had a crush on my brother, and that's disgusting.

"Look, I think the whole being naked in the locker room thing is blown out of proportion. If someone's going to help you win, then that should take precedent over a five-minute shower."


Which brings me to this point: Every week the coaching staff hands out "The Hammer Award," which recognizes the player who gave the hardest hits during a game. This season the running joke was they were going to rename it "The Goslin" because Goose kept winning it every week.

"He played so well on the field that hardly anyone ever brought up the gay thing," Guthrie says. "And the funny thing is most of the guys who had an issue with it didn't play that much because they weren't that good."

Guthrie may be on to something. Shav "don't bring your gayness on me " Randolph has a career average of 2.7 points per game and has started only seven games. Perhaps someone's else's "gayness" shouldn't be his concern.

LZ Granderson is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine and host of the ESPN360 talk show "Game Night." LZ can be reached at [email protected].
 

abomb

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Great story LakeShow. :thumbup:

It has been stated many times on this board by D-Dogg, Jon and me that in 50 years society will view the unabashed discrimination toward gays/lesbians with an embarrassment similar to that of racial discrimination today.
 

LakeShowMan

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Great story LakeShow. :thumbup:

It has been stated many times on this board by D-Dogg, Jon and me that in 50 years society will view the unabashed discrimination toward gays/lesbians with an embarrassment similar to that of racial discrimination today.

I hope so. Hating anyone for anything other than who that person shows themselves to be by words and actions, is the most ridiculous thing I can think of. As I said previously, gay people have it the toughest because of not only the stereotype that they have in soceity, but also because the majority of the world is religious in some way, and most religions deem that lifestyle a sin. In some circles, people still believe that sexual oreintation is a choice, or something that can be 'cured'. Hopefully, as you said, over time, these ideas and veiws will be looked at as absurd and archaic.

My wife and I always say that it is our job and duty to make sure that if we have children, that we try to teach them that it is OK to understand that people are different, but they should judge people by who they are not what they are. Other than that, there isn't a whole lot people can do to change minds of those around us.
 

Mulli

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Great story LakeShow. :thumbup:

It has been stated many times on this board by D-Dogg, Jon and me that in 50 years society will view the unabashed discrimination toward gays/lesbians with an embarrassment similar to that of racial discrimination today.
Strangely enough, 50 years from now people will find unbashed discrimination toward Laker fans reasonable.

/suns fan
 

Treesquid PhD

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I really want to read this book, the exerpts I have read make me think this guy is a bit judgemental himself, while quick being too quick to discount people and even label them. To me he almost comes off as a bit delisional and self absorbed, this really interests me, I will probably buy and read the book soon.
 

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Reading some parts on ESPN also makes Sloan out to be quite the Jerk.

Not surprised:)
 

Mulli

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Hmm, ex-player mad because he is not in the league anymore.

:ducks:
 

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I just glossed over the previous posts, but I haven't seen this mentioned yet.

On a radio show this morning, Tim Hardaway was asked how he would feel about having a gay teammate.

He responded by saying that he hates gay people and would not welcome one into the locker room. The host of the show said that his response was bigoted, and Tim acknowledged such, but said he didn't care because being gay is wrong.

Edit: Found an article. Ironically he was doing interviews on behalf of the "we care" foundation.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16700045.htm

"You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.''

'First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team,'' Hardaway replied. ``And second of all, if he was on my team, I would really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that is right. I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room. But stuff like that is going on and there's a lot of other people I hear that are like that and still in the closet and don't want to come out of the closet, but you know I just leave that alone.''

'Something has to give,'' he said. ``And I think the majority of players would ask for him to be traded or they would want to be traded. Or buy him out of his contract and just let him go. Something has to give. If you have 12 other ballplayers in your locker room that are upset and can't concentrate and always worried about him in the locker room or on the court it's going to be hard for your teammates to win and accept him as a teammate.''
 
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elindholm

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At least he's honest. It's pretty rare for someone to confess a prejudice without trying to hide behind pseudo-justifying language.
 
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