Explain: Goran Dragic's Fan Status

[sunsfan88]

Dragic isn't on Nash's level, HOWEVER, right now he's been the most and maybe only pleasant thing the Suns have going for them so fans like him.

If we had bigger names or better players then sure maybe the love for Goran would time down a bit but we don't. Just like every bad team, the fanbase looks to adopt the best player currently on the horrible roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dragic isn't on Nash's level, HOWEVER, right now he's been the most and maybe only pleasant thing the Suns have going for them so fans like him.

If we had bigger names or better players then sure maybe the love for Goran would time down a bit but we don't. Just like every bad team, the fanbase looks to adopt the best player currently on the horrible roster.

Right now, using just PER, it's Thomas, Bledsoe, Markieff and then Goran which, other than Thomas, matches up to the eye test AFAIC. Markieff has been the most consistent, Eric has been our best defender and for the season has probably been our best overall player despite his turnovers and occasional disappearances. Which pretty much explains our results to date. Goran has probably been our best player overall since IT first went down so there's at least the hope that he's getting closer to being the player he was last season.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

Right now, using just PER, it's Thomas, Bledsoe, Markieff and then Goran which, other than Thomas, matches up to the eye test AFAIC. Markieff has been the most consistent, Eric has been our best defender and for the season has probably been our best overall player despite his turnovers and occasional disappearances. Which pretty much explains our results to date. Goran has probably been our best player overall since IT first went down so there's at least the hope that he's getting closer to being the player he was last season.

Steve

I am not a huge fan of PER, +/- and similar things, but I'd agree with your assessment. Those first two weeks were just beyond atrocious for Dragic.

 

[sunsfan88]

Right now, using just PER, it's Thomas, Bledsoe, Markieff and then Goran which, other than Thomas, matches up to the eye test AFAIC. Markieff has been the most consistent, Eric has been our best defender and for the season has probably been our best overall player despite his turnovers and occasional disappearances. Which pretty much explains our results to date. Goran has probably been our best player overall since IT first went down so there's at least the hope that he's getting closer to being the player he was last season.

Steve

Your right this season he's been bad, maybe I should have said the past 2 years.

And PER is an awful, ESPN created crap way of judging players btw. Almost worse than +/- stats.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Your right this season he's been bad, maybe I should have said the past 2 years.

And PER is an awful, ESPN created crap way of judging players btw. Almost worse than +/- stats.

I happen to believe that +/- stats, over a reasonable period of time, tell the true story far more often than not.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Dragic isn't on Nash's level, HOWEVER, right now he's been the most and maybe only pleasant thing the Suns have going for them so fans like him.

If we had bigger names or better players then sure maybe the love for Goran would time down a bit but we don't. Just like every bad team, the fanbase looks to adopt the best player currently on the horrible roster.

The first half of the Hornets game shows why Suns fans love Dragic. He leaves his game on the court.

 

[BC867]

I blame too many cooks in the kitchen. Let Goran be the primary ball handler / distributor and I think all our problems go away. (Well, yeah. Of course not ALL our problems.)

Yes, and that gets to the root of the problem. Dragic was brought back to be our Point Guard, wanted to be here, was recognized by the NBA for his performance, was moving in a good direction, then lost his job to, not one, but two new Point Guards added to the roster.

What is the moral of that story? Is that how you motivate a player who came through in a key position? Is that how you motivate any of the players on the team, pitting them against each other night after night?

Is that how your team progresses over the season? Our team has been regressing. That is not good!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, and that gets to the root of the problem. Dragic was brought back to be our Point Guard, wanted to be here, was recognized by the NBA for his performance, was moving in a good direction, then lost his job to, not one, but two new Point Guards added to the roster.

What is the moral of that story? Is that how you motivate a player who came through in a key position? Is that how you motivate any of the players on the team, pitting them against each other night after night?

Is that how your team progresses over the season? Our team has been regressing. That is not good!

So you liked it when he led us to a 25 win season on a team with your kind of inside players (you know, two big guys)? Last year, he had a very good season and a great stretch but he's been mediocre more often than not during his Phoenix tenure.

It wasn't to pit them against each other. We'd had a nice run the season before but once Bledsoe went down our double digit game lead for the playoffs disappeared. It disappeared in large part due to a quality point guard to backup Goran and/or play alongside him. The logic wasn't horrible, they just miscalculated the importance of a stretch big man for the gimmicky kind of offense they were running. IMO.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

So you liked it when he led us to a 25 win season on a team with your kind of inside players (you know, two big guys)? Last year, he had a very good season and a great stretch but he's been mediocre more often than not during his Phoenix tenure.
Steve

I couldn't disagree more with this entire paragraph.

As for the bolded, LOL yea with coaches like Alvin Gentry, and Lindsay Hunter.

Not to mention that was Dragic's FIRST season as full time starter so I'm sure he's developed since as he showed last season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I couldn't disagree more with this entire paragraph.

As for the bolded, LOL yea with coaches like Alvin Gentry, and Lindsay Hunter.

Not to mention that was Dragic's FIRST season as full time starter so I'm sure he's developed since as he showed last season.

How in the world could anyone disagree with the statement that Goran has been mediocre most of his career? It sure looks like a fact to me. I'm not blaming him for that season but he was a part of it. I'm not saying he hasn't improved either because he clearly has. But the vast majority of his career, he's been a mediocre player. To not try and improve the guard position would have been folly. Maybe we made the wrong choices but with winning now as a goal, going into this season with just Goran would have been far worse than what we now have IMO. The rest of this supporting cast, minus Bledsoe and Thomas, isn't as good as our 25 win roster IMO

Steve

 

[Chris_Sanders]

You are a joke man.

How do you know that Dragic is intelligent and Amare is stupid?

Stereotypes much?
Seems to me Amare built himself a nice business empire off the court, but he is that dumb black highschool kid from the ghetto. Dragic however is that nice, humble, intelligent white guy. Uh oh..

And you're done.

 

[SirStefan32]

How in the world could anyone disagree with the statement that Goran has been mediocre most of his career? It sure looks like a fact to me. I'm not blaming him for that season but he was a part of it. I'm not saying he hasn't improved either because he clearly has. But the vast majority of his career, he's been a mediocre player. To not try and improve the guard position would have been folly. Maybe we made the wrong choices but with winning now as a goal, going into this season with just Goran would have been far worse than what we now have IMO. The rest of this supporting cast, minus Bledsoe and Thomas, isn't as good as our 25 win roster IMO

Steve

While you may be technically right, it's really unfair to call Dragic's career mediocre. He came to the NBA late, was stuck playing behind Nash (anyone with that job is doomed), then got traded to be a backup elsewhere. He got a chance to start due to an injury, had himself a nice stretch towards the end of the season. Then he came back to a poor, dysfunctional team to have his first season as a starter.

To me, that's a nice career if you look at everything instead of just numbers.

Also, of course the team minus Bledsoe and IT is worse than the Scola/ Gortat/ Dudley team, but if you remove two of the three or four best players on any team, they will be worse than the that team two years ago. That's just not a fair comparison.

I realize you are not a Dragic fan, but that post was just completely unfair, which is very uncharacteristic for you.

 

[AzStevenCal]

While you may be technically right, it's really unfair to call Dragic's career mediocre. He came to the NBA late, was stuck playing behind Nash (anyone with that job is doomed), then got traded to be a backup elsewhere. He got a chance to start due to an injury, had himself a nice stretch towards the end of the season. Then he came back to a poor, dysfunctional team to have his first season as a starter.

To me, that's a nice career if you look at everything instead of just numbers.

Also, of course the team minus Bledsoe and IT is worse than the Scola/ Gortat/ Dudley team, but if you remove two of the three or four best players on any team, they will be worse than the that team two years ago. That's just not a fair comparison.

I realize you are not a Dragic fan, but that post was just completely unfair, which is very uncharacteristic for you.

Really? I tend to try and balance. When I'm discussing/arguing with people that are overtly pro-Goran, I guess my comments must sound more disparaging than I intend. It's funny because I'm also posting on RealGM and I've recently been called a Bledsoe hater and a Dragic fanboy multiple times there for doing the same thing - trying to add a little perspective. Ii don't think either player walks on water, not even close. But there seem to be two major camps, one which is all Goran and the other which is all Bledsoe. Believe it or not, I'm fairly close to neutral when it comes to choosing between the two players.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Really? I tend to try and balance. When I'm discussing/arguing with people that are overtly pro-Goran, I guess my comments must sound more disparaging than I intend. It's funny because I'm also posting on RealGM and I've recently been called a Bledsoe hater and a Dragic fanboy multiple times there for doing the same thing - trying to add a little perspective. Ii don't think either player walks on water, not even close. But there seem to be two major camps, one which is all Goran and the other which is all Bledsoe. Believe it or not, I'm fairly close to neutral when it comes to choosing between the two players.

Steve

I'm overtly pro-Goran. I do not have to be fair and balanced but that doesn't mean I'm down on Bledsoe. The Suns need a leader and Goran is the better leader.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm overtly pro-Goran. I do not have to be fair and balanced but that doesn't mean I'm down on Bledsoe. The Suns need a leader and Goran is the better leader.

I really don't have a problem with someone being overtly pro any Suns player. It's the "build one player up so they can tear the other one down" that I really dislike. Neither Bledsoe nor Dragic has played up to their level this season. Blaming our losses on one and ignoring the other bugs me, they are both part of the problem. And they will likely both be part of the solution too. I still believe they work as a tandem if we can find a way to keep the defense honest.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I really don't have a problem with someone being overtly pro any Suns player. It's the "build one player up so they can tear the other one down" that I really dislike. Neither Bledsoe nor Dragic has played up to their level this season. Blaming our losses on one and ignoring the other bugs me, they are both part of the problem. And they will likely both be part of the solution too. I still believe they work as a tandem if we can find a way to keep the defense honest.

Steve

I think part of the blame game starts from fans fearing the Suns will have to choose between Dragic or Bledsoe, minimally when Dragic becomes a free agent. I can't see the Suns paying Dragic the type money Bledsoe received. I think this is at the core of the division between fans.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think part of the blame game starts from fans fearing the Suns will have to choose between Dragic or Bledsoe, minimally when Dragic becomes a free agent. I can't see the Suns paying Dragic the type money Bledsoe received. I think this is at the core of the division between fans.

That's reasonable. To me, the worst part about Eric's salary is the idea that Goran will get the same. I'd have been a lot happier to see both of them on contracts like Lowry accepted (12 per). I agreed with the decision to give him 14 million but I really expected more from him this season than he's shown (same with Goran). Now, if this is all Eric will ever be we'll probably either need to move him for full value or move Goran instead. We really can't afford to discount either of them though, they are all we really have.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

That's reasonable. To me, the worst part about Eric's salary is the idea that Goran will get the same. I'd have been a lot happier to see both of them on contracts like Lowry accepted (12 per). I agreed with the decision to give him 14 million but I really expected more from him this season than he's shown (same with Goran). Now, if this is all Eric will ever be we'll probably either need to move him for full value or move Goran instead. We really can't afford to discount either of them though, they are all we really have.

Steve

I do think the Suns will have to choose.

 

[SirStefan32]

I do think the Suns will have to choose.

I agree. They are just a terrible fit for each other. I also believe that trading one of them is the best thing that can happen to both of them.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree. They are just a terrible fit for each other. I also believe that trading one of them is the best thing that can happen to both of them.

If we can't space the court, you're right. But if we can get them some room to operate, I still think they are each better for the presence of the other. Of course, even if we part with one, they each need better spacing than we are currently providing. Bledsoe is a dribbling menace if he keeps penetrating into a crowded lane and Goran has trouble setting others up if he doesn't have the room to drive.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Goran has trouble setting others up if he doesn't have the room to drive.

In fairness, I don't know what options any point guard has if his teammates do nothing but stand around.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In fairness, I don't know what options any point guard has if his teammates do nothing but stand around.

True. I guess I'm stuck looking at Goran before last year versus last year. Every offense needs good spacing but IMO we had a lot more room to operate last year than a team normally would have and that was when Dragic excelled. So, was his higher level of play just the natural progression of a player or was it the result of better than typical spacing?

Steve

 

[elindholm]

So, was his higher level of play just the natural progression of a player or was it the result of better than typical spacing?

I think it was the result of less overall selfishness on the team. I watched the end of the Hornets game and couldn't get over how stupidly the Suns played, even though they won. It's every man for himself, and no PG can thrive in that context. I believe in Hornacek, but right now the Suns look like one of the worst-coached teams in the league. Their talent level is below average, but they are also underperforming, and pretty severely at that.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think it was the result of less overall selfishness on the team. I watched the end of the Hornets game and couldn't get over how stupidly the Suns played, even though they won. It's every man for himself, and no PG can thrive in that context. I believe in Hornacek, but right now the Suns look like one of the worst-coached teams in the league. Their talent level is below average, but they are also underperforming, and pretty severely at that.

This is where I think Green and Thomas kill us. When those guys are in, especially together, ball movement ends. Once that happens I think its hard for guys to get back into the flow. The rest of the team is left to basically "get out of the way" as Green and Thomas exchange contested jumpers. Yes, those two are better than anyone on the team right now, but unless they're white hot they kill us out there.

The team was playing some of their best ball right before and during the start of the losing streak, then they suffer narrow loses in a row all vs respectable teams, the Clipper game probably being one of the best games they played all year... and the wheels come off, now we're struggling vs the bums. And, not so coincidentally, the ball movement has suffered since Isiah returned. We averaged 23.4 assists per game in the 5 games before Thomas returned, we've averaged 19 per since against weaker slate of foes.

 

[sunsfan88]

How in the world could anyone disagree with the statement that Goran has been mediocre most of his career? It sure looks like a fact to me. I'm not blaming him for that season but he was a part of it. I'm not saying he hasn't improved either because he clearly has. But the vast majority of his career, he's been a mediocre player. To not try and improve the guard position would have been folly. Maybe we made the wrong choices but with winning now as a goal, going into this season with just Goran would have been far worse than what we now have IMO. The rest of this supporting cast, minus Bledsoe and Thomas, isn't as good as our 25 win roster IMO

Steve

I don't understand how he's been mediocre when he was a backup behind one of the greatest PGs of all time for the first part of his career then when he finally became starter, he had absolute ball hogs and idiotic players like Beasley and Brown on the team along with a coach named Lindsay freaking Hunter. Like Sirstefan32 said, sure by numbers it was pretty bad but he never got this thing called....opportunity until later.

And of course minus Bledsoe and Thomas, it isn't better than our 25 win team but that's why we ought to trade both players to get back quality players which will make it better than our 25 win team.

Really? I tend to try and balance. When I'm discussing/arguing with people that are overtly pro-Goran, I guess my comments must sound more disparaging than I intend. It's funny because I'm also posting on RealGM and I've recently been called a Bledsoe hater and a Dragic fanboy multiple times there for doing the same thing - trying to add a little perspective. Ii don't think either player walks on water, not even close. But there seem to be two major camps, one which is all Goran and the other which is all Bledsoe. Believe it or not, I'm fairly close to neutral when it comes to choosing between the two players.

Steve

Honestly I see you as more of a Bledsoe fan myself, and that's from judging posts on both forums.

Its funny, last season I was neutral and I wanted both on our team for a long time because I thought they were perfect as they complimented each other well. I also expected Bledsoe to improve his game and not make the same mistakes he made last season since he supposedly worked on his game so much with LeBron over the summer and obviously more is asked of him when he's making $14 million a year so he's disappointed in that sense also.

I guess I'm now Team Dragic but its more due to the fact that Bledsoe having regressed than Dragic actually overtaking him due to Goran's play himself.