Fan or no fan this team is toast

[AzKarl]

Until we get several hitters in this lineup who consistently strike fear in opposing pitchers we are toast.

What is this pathetic move of signing Felix Leon? Didn't we learn how worthless this was the last time we did this? Spivey has a hot bat and so we play Kata who hasn't done jack in three games. Counsell looks totally pathetic and either needs to fix that stance and swing or be sat permanently. Why is he of all people uppercutting? We need a friggin bloop single and he's swinging for the downs, late I might add.

Gonzo misplays balls constantly in left field, so when is this going to be addressed? He has a noodle for an arm, gets no jump on the ball and is not living up to the big contract. I am sick of this crap. Is anyone out there amazed at how we play so crappy against the Giants?

I love the D-Backs but any of you who think this team is going to the playoffs are high or drunk or oblivious. This team will have lots of time for golf this fall. They'd be embarrassed if they got in the playoffs.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Gonzo misplays balls constantly in left field, so when is this going to be addressed? He has a noodle for an arm, gets no jump on the ball and is not living up to the big contract.

Perhaps you have overlooked these numbers?

.303/.394/.530/.925

DWKB would probably show you Gonzo's win shares which I imagine are equally high.

He is the best offensive player on the team, so how do you want to address the problem - trade him for a lesser offensive player?

 

[AzKarl]

Re: Re: Fan or no fan this team is toast

Originally posted by schillingfan
Perhaps you have overlooked these numbers?

.303/.394/.530/.925

DWKB would probably show you Gonzo's win shares which I imagine are equally high.

He is the best offensive player on the team, so how do you want to address the problem - trade him for a lesser offensive player?

Yes, he is the best offensive player we have. No, I did not say to trade him. The play in left field demonstrates his sometimes lackadaisical play at very inopportune times. The point of my rant is that they are highly unlikely to make the playoffs with this kind of play and Gonzo has to bear this burden because he is high paid and one of the team leaders. His numbers to this point don't mean squat unless you show me the W's. As a fan who helps pay these exhorbitant salaries, I think that I am entitled to understand why we can't overcome a team of ancients who boast Grissom, Santiago, and Gallalagra. I find it pathetic and so I stated it. The major failure of this team's veterans down the stretch must cause team management to examine their futures with this club. Finley is now a 10/5 guy. Guys like Counsell, McCracken , Grace are feel good stories that must be assessed. Maybe Gonzo should move to first base. His old buddy Tino did. He is a liability in left field.

 

[az240zz]

What bothers me is how Giles wound up in San Diego. I thought he would have looked good in D-backs uniform.


Az240z

 

[schillingfan]

Re: Re: Re: Fan or no fan this team is toast

Originally posted by AzKarl
Yes, he is the best offensive player we have. No, I did not say to trade him. The play in left field demonstrates his sometimes lackadaisical play at very inopportune times. The point of my rant is that they are highly unlikely to make the playoffs with this kind of play and Gonzo has to bear this burden because he is high paid and one of the team leaders. His numbers to this point don't mean squat unless you show me the W's. As a fan who helps pay these exhorbitant salaries, I think that I am entitled to understand why we can't overcome a team of ancients who boast Grissom, Santiago, and Gallalagra.

Well, first let me say that I asked you how you would address the problem and you responded that Gonzo needs to bear the burden of winning.

Well since he's the best offensive player, what does he need to do that he isn't doing?

But more to the point, its amazing how a rant about losing often is associated with some reference to big salaries.

And lastly, there is a reason the D-Backs can't beat the Giants - look at payrolls. Plus Brian Sabean is an excellent GM who has made some creative moves. Plus they have possibly the best player ever.

 

[unc84steve]

Originally posted by AzKarl
Gonzo misplays balls constantly in left field, so when is this going to be addressed? He has a noodle for an arm, gets no jump on the ball and is not living up to the big contract. I am sick of this crap.

"Misplays balls constantly in LF"? What do you mean? He doesn't foolishly dive for balls risking an extra base & injury? He throws the ball to the correct base to keep the DP in order (and runners out of scoring position)?

I've seen several games from the front row of the LF bleachers. I also have looked at Gonzo's defensive "Win Share" numbers. I was pleasantly surprised to see what an effective outfielder he is.

Link to NL Defensive Win Shares

(Please note that on average (the per 1000 innings) Andruw Jones has fallen below Steve Finley. Andruw has slowed down--both he & Damian Miller had zero triples in 2002 and one in 2003, but Damian had the inside the park HR)

Gonzo gets a rap for sliding and not diving for balls. Well, he ranks #6 in total NL total OF win shares because he's there almost every day.

Fans & Thom Brenneman may like it when Brian Giles or Ken Griffey, Jr dives into to the stands/walls after balls they don't catch, but they miss months not helping anyone. Danny Bautista ruined 2 seasons & probably his career diving for a SINGLE last year.

A week ago, I saw Gonzo make one of those slides to keep the DP in order (instead of trying for a foolish catch that would have risked a double down the line). Sure enough, the next batter hit into a 5-4-3, stranding a runner at 3rd.

I wonder if the announcers have a different perspective that makes it look as if the balls are closer to Gonzalez than they really are. (Balls also tend to accelerate as the fall to the ground--it's a physics law).

 

[AzKarl]

You have your opinion

Statistics can say whatever you want them to. I think Gonzo is a good player but in my observations he is a liability in the outfield. He has no arm. People run on him at will, and he gets a poor jump on many balls. A runner on second almost always scores on a single to left or center. We don't always score. So, is JT Snow a speedburner? He scored from second on Bond's rocket to center. I've seen others score from second on balls that were smoked to Gonzo. See San Diego series last week.

Play with numbers all you want, the bottom lines is wins and losses. True superstars raise their team's level of play like Bonds, Pujols, Helton, Andru Jones, Chipper Jones etc.. Gonzo is a very good player but he is not in that category. No one has stepped up for the D-backs hence the higher paid guys will have the heat directed at them. We should play the kids and see what they can do because this race is all but mathematically over.

 

[mark1]

For the last few weeks the veterans on this team have gone in the toilet. When we needed them to step up, they took a step back. On this recent homestand Counsell hit .111, Gonzo hit .209, Finley hit .152, Hillenbrand hit .200, PATHETIC! Only Baerga .444, Cintron .353, Hammock .355, and Mondesi .381, hit the ball at all. In the 5 wins they scored something like 44 runs. In the 8 loses they scored 12 runs. I'm just sorry the Minor League season is over, they were much more enjoyable to follow for me this year. I sure hope Jerry and Joe figure out a way to improve the offense for next year.

 

[AzKarl]

Originally posted by mark1
For the last few weeks the veterans on this team have gone in the toilet. When we needed them to step up, they took a step back. On this recent homestand Counsell hit .111, Gonzo hit .209, Finley hit .152, Hillenbrand hit .200, PATHETIC! Only Baerga .444, Cintron .353, Hammock .355, and Mondesi .381, hit the ball at all. In the 5 wins they scored something like 44 runs. In the 8 loses they scored 12 runs. I'm just sorry the Minor League season is over, they were much more enjoyable to follow for me this year. I sure hope Jerry and Joe figure out a way to improve the offense for next year.

Totally agree. Granted the bar has been set high here but we must do some things to be competitive. Hopefully a combination of trades mixing veterans and some prospects will yield us what we need to compete next year.

 

[AZZenny]

I was very sad, too, listening to the last Sidewinder's game last night, because they are more fun, frankly, for the last 6 weeks or so. BUT! hang on, in 3 weeks AZ Fall League starts, and that is a blast! Cool evenings, stadiums with only the hard core faithful, the best youngsters in the minors playing enthusiastic show-off baseball, promising managerial candidates - can't wait!

 

[unc84steve]

Re: You have your opinion

Originally posted by AzKarl
Statistics can say whatever you want them to. I think Gonzo is a good player but in my observations he is a liability in the outfield. He has no arm. People run on him at will, and he gets a poor jump on many balls. A runner on second almost always scores on a single to left or center. We don't always score. So, is JT Snow a speedburner? He scored from second on Bond's rocket to center. I've seen others score from second on balls that were smoked to Gonzo. See San Diego series last week.

Play with numbers all you want, the bottom lines is wins and losses. True superstars raise their team's level of play like Bonds, Pujols, Helton, Andru Jones, Chipper Jones etc.. Gonzo is a very good player but he is not in that category. No one has stepped up for the D-backs hence the higher paid guys will have the heat directed at them. We should play the kids and see what they can do because this race is all but mathematically over.

We all have opinions & I respect your's on this issue.

It's true that you can do anything with statistics, but I'd contend that "stats" would include the W-L columns and players' salaries. We all see the game differently too; I was sharing my observations and preferences on how baseball should be played (getting the most from ones talent over a whole season without flashy play, but making wise judgments).

I note Albert Pujols & Todd Helton on your list. In his 6 years, Todd has failed to "raise their team's level of play" above 4th place so I suppose he's not a "true superstar." If the Cards miss the playoffs we can writeoff Pujols for now. We know Vlad Guerrero isn't a superstar because he hasn't raised Les Expos too much despite a decent supporting cast.

We like saying baseball is a team game & everyone contributes when a club wins. Yet when it's obvious that there's problems elsewhere, fans often blame the few productive players out there.

 

[AzKarl]

Points well made

I accept what you say as true. I myself will not cease being a die hard Diamondbacks fan but I must say this season has been excruciating and extremely frustrating. Tonight merely adds to it.

 

[AZCB34]

To the actual title of the thread, yes at this point the Dbacks are toast. They are not playing well enough to assume they will suddenly rip off and 8-10 game winning streak...although it has been done before. Just no faith it is possible right now.

The wild thing is, they are still really in the WC hunt. Amazing considering all the horrible play. I just don't see them getting on the roll to take the WC by the throat.

As for Gonzo, I really don't think you can trade him. He is too important to the team offensively right now. Unless someone can pose a realistic trade option with him in it where the Dbacks actually get better offensively, I cannot see it.

 

[IndyDevil]

Watching the past few games makes me think it's time for my annual switch over to ASU football mode - - losing two to the Padres is just too much for me to take, especially with a road series coming up with the Giants! This club has lost its way down the stretch, although I can't blame BB for all of it; the callup decisions by Joe Jr showed that management may have given up as well!!

I will always keep watching, swearing, and rooting for the D'Backs, but my hopes for a postseason berth are gone. I'd LOVE for them to prove me wrong, but those chances seem to be dwindling by the day.

 

[Dback Jon]

After today's meltdown, methinks there is little hope......

 

[kps0001]

agreed. 12-0 to the padres. I will still support them even though part of me wants to say forget about this season. but I will support win or lose.