Faster is better?

Wally

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Soooo........Anyone???

Has a team EVER won the NBA championship playing small-ball?

Please enlighten me.

The Suns went to the finals in 93 - we beat Seatle to go and we lost to the Bulls in 6 games. Didn't the Bulls have a power forward :D named Scott Williams who played in all 6 games who averaged over 26 min per game? Didn't the Bulls have Bill Cartwright playing center who averaged over 21 min per game?

Close counts in horseshoes but not in BB championships.

Maybe it's happened, but someone, please tell me, when?
 

elindholm

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The Pistons are the only thing close to a real example. Their big men were Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards, and John Salley, with only Edwards being close to a "true" center. And I'm pretty sure that they often went with a three-guard lineup of Isaih Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson, but I could be wrong about that.

In general I agree with you. Small ball can't go deep in the playoffs, particularly because officials permit more and more contact as the postseason progresses. Small-ball teams are always left complaining that they didn't get enough calls.
 

capologist

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Well, New Jersey has at least made it to the Finals a couple of times with a smallish style. And while their encounter with the Lakers was uttlerly humiliating, they actually made a competitive series with the Spurs.
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by elindholm
In my opinion that would make him the most dominating big man that has ever put on a suns uniform and if he can't even carry them out of the first round "ever" then why do I root for the suns?

Dominating opposing PFs is different from dominating opposing Cs. Charles Barkley won the league MVP in 1993 as a power forward; that is arguably the best season ever turned in by a Suns "big man." Now true, Barkley was only 6' 5", but the point is, he was a power forward, not a center. The same is true with Stoudemire. He can be a dominant "big man" without having the size to play center -- the challenge will be keeping him at his natural position, where he is most likely to succeed.

And that all goes double for Marion as a PF.

Exactly!
 

JCSunsfan

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Originally posted by Wally
Soooo........Anyone???

Has a team EVER won the NBA championship playing small-ball?

Please enlighten me.

The Suns went to the finals in 93 - we beat Seatle to go and we lost to the Bulls in 6 games. Didn't the Bulls have a power forward :D named Scott Williams who played in all 6 games who averaged over 26 min per game? Didn't the Bulls have Bill Cartwright playing center who averaged over 21 min per game?

Close counts in horseshoes but not in BB championships.

Maybe it's happened, but someone, please tell me, when?

Scott Williams was a center primarily on those teams. The Bulls had NO dominating big man in ANY of their title runs. Bill Cartwright and Luc L. . .(I can't say it) did little more than take up space on the floor.

In fact, their PF position was manned by guys who were more suited to the SF position (Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman).

They had smallish pg's in BJ Armstrong and Harper.

Scotty Pippen was average size for a SF.

As a matter of fact, the game they played would have looked alot like small ball to most Suns fans.

I'm not a small ball fan, but you could make an argument that the Bulls won with it -- six times.

There is the MJ factor though.
 

BC867

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Throughout their history, the Suns approach (and usually, the result) has been to have a winning record at home, don't embarass yourself on the road, and make an appearance in the post-season.

Aside from frustrating Suns fans by not taking that next step to be a true playoff contender, it causes other problems.

-- The Jazz can get away with it because there's no other game in town. For years, so could the Suns. But now, with so many major sports teams in the Valley, and so much competition for entertainment dollars, "good enough isn't good enough".

-- Trying to match up to other teams, game after game, won't put you ahead of them.

-- Teams who play from a position of weakness (4's playing 5, 3's playing 4, etc.) don't win the respect of the refs, and don't get the calls.

It looks like we'll have plenty of exciting moments this season. But we're no closer to that next step.
 

schutd

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Originally posted by slinslin
Cardinals, Dbacks and Coyotes suck and don't have any real stars.


Wha?

Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Luis Gonzales, Shea Hillenbrand, Hell, I dont even LIKE baseball and I know a stars name when I hear it.
 

JCSunsfan

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I'd don't have a problem with the Suns putting together a fast-breaking team (I know there is a difference between a running team, and small ball, but I think some are confusing the two).

Some of you are young, I think, because you don't remember the great fast-breaking championship teams of the past.

The 1960's Celtics were a running team.
The 1970's Celtics were a running team. (with a 6-7 center in Cowans)
The 1980's Celtics were a running team.
The 1980's Lakers were a running team.

There are nearly 20 championships right there. Not only were those teams good, they were a boatload of fun to watch.

Creative open court play is what made this league so popular in the 1980's and 90's.

Fast paced, open court play is where it is going again. Danny Ainge is trying to build a running team in Boston, the Nets already have, the Suns areand so are other teams.

But it will all be for nothing if officiating in the playoffs does not change.
 

jimjames1

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The 1960's Celtics were a running team. The 1970's Celtics were a running team. (with a 6-7 center in Cowans)The 1980's Celtics were a running team. The 1980's Lakers were a running team.

Come on now.. How does this have anything to do with these posts? First of all, you can't realy compare teams from 15, 20, 30, and 40 years ago and expect it to really mean anything. But even if you did that, understand that just because those teams ran didn't mean they couldnt' function in the half-court. The Suns have Stephon Marbury, who can create great shots for other people, and can create pretty well for himself. But other than that, we don't really have anybody who is suited AT ALL for the half-court set.

And let's also not forget that those teams you mentioned were great in large part because of their centers! The fact that other teams were not able to beat the Celtics of the 60s, 70s and 80s shows that the Suns, with no centers, probably won't be able to beat the teams of this decade that also have great centers. Who cares if those older teams ran, because the truth is, when the game slowed down, they had centers like Bill Russel, Kareer Abdul Jabbar, Robert Parish - all hall-of-famers - who controlled them middle on offense and defense. The Suns may be a self-titled "running team" now, but that's just one of the elements of greatness that those dynasties of the past had.

By the way, Shawn Marion at power forward may be the worst idea ever created. I don't care if the guy gained 6 pounds, he's still not going to be able to guard anybody who can bang downlow. I mean, he sure as hell couldn't guard Malik Rose last year, who was a small forward. Other than Shawn doing close to nothing productive on the offensive end, one of the biggest reasons we lost that series was because we couldn't stop the Spurs players who werent' Tim Duncan downlow. Malik Rose and David Robinson abused Shawn whenever they were matched up against each other (Robinson more on switches when someone would go to double Duncan on the block.) Shawn simply cannot bang with bigger players, and if we expect to have him do that this season, we're going to be unsuccesful.
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by jimjames1
Come on now.. How does this have anything to do with these posts? First of all, you can't realy compare teams from 15, 20, 30, and 40 years ago and expect it to really mean anything. But even if you did that, understand that just because those teams ran didn't mean they couldnt' function in the half-court. The Suns have Stephon Marbury, who can create great shots for other people, and can create pretty well for himself. But other than that, we don't really have anybody who is suited AT ALL for the half-court set.

Come on now. Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, and Penny Hardaway, etc. are just fine in the half-court set. Offensively there were only a few things missing last season. They were a center (or a power forward playing center) who could shoot a consistent midrange jump shot and scoring off the bench. The problem with small ball is on defense, not offense.

Joe Mama
 

schutd

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Originally posted by slinslin
They WERE stars.

Ask any team in the league. If they're stars. I bet you every single one says yes.

Hillenbrand, no, but again, Beecham, I said I didnt even LIKE baseball, so I asumed if I had heard of him BEFORE he came to AZ, he must be somewhere on the list. Nice better than me response though. Appreciate it.
 
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Joe Mama

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This is the problem with small ball.

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JCSunsfan

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Originally posted by jimjames1
Come on now.. How does this have anything to do with these posts? First of all, you can't realy compare teams from 15, 20, 30, and 40 years ago and expect it to really mean anything. But even if you did that, understand that just because those teams ran didn't mean they couldnt' function in the half-court. The Suns have Stephon Marbury, who can create great shots for other people, and can create pretty well for himself. But other than that, we don't really have anybody who is suited AT ALL for the half-court set.


BTW, thank Joe for your reply to this. It was right on.

Because a team is building for running and speed does not mean they have to lose. Likewise, just because a team runs does not mean it has to play small ball.

This might be the best half court team the Suns have had in years. Offensively, they are just fine in the half court. But there are also alot of incredible athletes on this team. You have to take advantage of your strengths.

If the NBA itself can recognize what is good for it, it will take a long look at the product it put on the court 15 years ago. The league has been in decline for a few years and there is a reason. You will continue to see rule changes designed to open up the game and get the ball moving.

My biggest concern is playing Marion at the 4. I don't think it is a good idea. Hopefully it won't happen very often.
 

scotsman13

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3 years from now is when the suns window is going to open up for them to win a championship. i have heard of lot of you talk about how we cant win without a center. the question i have for all of you is what centers are going to out there in 3 year? yoa, and who? yoa is going to be a good center center but he isnt going to be a power like shaq but more of a patrick ewing if jvg can get the guards to pass him the ball. shaq should be gone at that time, his body is already braking down for carrying 400 lbs of fat around. duncan? duncan is a power forward, who else? the age of the big center is coming to an end and once shaq leaves the age of the great centers will be gone. david robinson, patrick ewing, hakeem, and soon morning and shaq will be gone who is left?

what is small ball? is this line up small ball? 6'2", 6'8", 6'7", 6'10" and 6'11"? what would you say if i told you that all of these players but one was at the nba average or above. and the one player that is below is ranked by many at the best at his spot. small ball was something that the suns did a couple years ago just to stay in game with players that they had. it was a 6'4", 6'1", 6'4", 6'7" and a 6'9", now that team was smaller then nba average at every spot.

the suns didnt lose to the spurs last year because of small ball they lost because we didnt have enough scorers to pick up the pick up the pieces after marburg got hurt. amare will be better this, marion will be better this year, hardaway will be better year and the rookies will add a lot of depth to the team. all things being equal i like i chances in the years to come. we are not a small team.
 

jimjames1

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3 years from now is when the suns window is going to open up for them to win a championship.

Why, because Penny will be off the books? I got news for you, Penny may not be worth 13 million dollars, but he's worth a lot to this team, and it's very difficult to find a guy like that in the league, who truly does make the players around him better. If Joe Johnson starts this year, this team may be in trouble. I can't stress enough the fact that this team was top 5 in the West when Penny was in the line-up, and pretty much bottom of the barrel when he was not. Maybe Joe Johnson has improved, but even then it probably won't be very beneficial to take Penny out of the starting lineup.

Amare Stoudemire should be a very good player this year, and Stephon Marbury we know is great. So it really hinges on Shawn Marion. We have this guy locked up for a long time, and he's probably the key to our team. Even in 3 years we're not going to sign some superstar free agent because we're going to have Amare's big contract on the books, so it all hinges on whether or not Shawn can play in the playoffs. Last year, he made a strong arguement for the people who say that he cannot play in the playoffs at a level we need to. But I don't see that just all the sudden changing in 3 years. If Shawn Marion can play well this year in the playoffs, then we'll be as good a team as we are in 3 years, all things being equal, but if he can't, we won't have a chance this year or any other year.

I read the article as well about our "door" being open in 3 years, but it doesn't make it true.

what is small ball? is this line up small ball? 6'2", 6'8", 6'7", 6'10" and 6'11"? what would you say if i told you that all of these players but one was at the nba average or above. and the one player that is below is ranked by many at the best at his spot. small ball was something that the suns did a couple years ago just to stay in game with players that they had. it was a 6'4", 6'1", 6'4", 6'7" and a 6'9", now that team was smaller then nba average at every spot.

None of this really matters, because these are all just arbitrary heights. It's all about match-ups. If we have Shawn Marion matched up against a power forward, we won't win. When we play the Grizzlies, Bo Outlaw will dominate Shawn in the post, let alone the talented offensive players he'd be matched up with. The whole thing reminds me of last year's all star game, when Vince Carter was matched up against Kevin Garnett. Vince can jump out of the gym, and he's pretty strong, but he got killed in the second Overtime of that game when Garnett just backed him up and shot fadeaways right over him.

When did we play small ball with a guys who were 6'4, 6'1, 6'4, 6'7, and 6'9? I can see Jason Kidd and Tony Delk in there, but other what about the top 3 positions? If anything, we'd have Shawn Marion or Mario Elie at the 3 position, both of those guys being 6'7. At power forward, we had Cliff Robinson or Tom Gugliota. Even when Rodney Rogers played power forward, he may have been 6'8, but he made up for it with his strength. At center, we had Jake Tsakalidis the past 4 years, and we've had Daniel Santiago or Jake Voskhul coming in most of the time. 4 years ago, we had Oliver Miller, who was listed as 6'9, but he had a long wing-span and was never one to be overpowered by his opponent. Keep in mind though, Cliff Robinson was always an excellent low-post defender, and with Jason Kidd's ability as a help-defender, we were a very decent defensive team.

Last year I'd say is the smallest "small-ball" we've played in recent years. We would have lineups where we had Marbs, Penny, JJ, Marion, and Voskhul in there. But we made up for it in that lineup because we created match-up problems on the offensive end of the court. That's the whole idea behind our "skill ball", and in many instances that lineup won games for us last year. However, we really got into trouble when we had lineups of Casey Jacobsen, JJ, Dan Langhi, Bo Outlaw and maybe Marion or Voskhul in there. It was a terrible lineup both because we were overmatched on defense, we had Joe Johnson in there posing as a point guard in just about the worst experiment conducted since they blew up nuclear bombs at chernobyl , and because we didn't have any offensive potency to react to the other team's scoring. The problem is, unless Carbakapa turns out to be a real good player, and history says this year he won't be, our bench is going to be even thinner than it was last year, which means we're going to see more lineups like the one i listed above.

If we got Mutombo, we might not have him in there with our running lineup, but any person with any knowledge of basketball knows you can't run the whole game, and that way we'd have somebody solid downlow who could help us out on the defensive end when some of our better scorers are resting. Right now, our skill-ball lineups would probably be Marbury, Penny, JJ, Marion, and Amare, which is 6'2, 6'7, 6'8, 6'7, 6'9. That's not 6'2", 6'8", 6'7", 6'10" and 6'11". Or we might have Barbosa, JJ, Marion, Demarr Johnson, and Carbakapa, which would be 6', 6'8, 6'7, 6'9, and 6'11. Keep in mind here, Johnson is a very skinny 6'9, and although he has long arms, we would still be overpowered if he had to match up with a power forward. Then, we have the same problem we had with Marion last year against the Spurs.
 
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Chaplin

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Originally posted by jimjames1
Amare Stoudemire should be a very good player this year, and Stephon Marbury we know is great. So it really hinges on Shawn Marion. We have this guy locked up for a long time, and he's probably the key to our team. Even in 3 years we're not going to sign some superstar free agent because we're going to have Amare's big contract on the books, so it all hinges on whether or not Shawn can play in the playoffs. Last year, he made a strong arguement for the people who say that he cannot play in the playoffs at a level we need to. But I don't see that just all the sudden changing in 3 years. If Shawn Marion can play well this year in the playoffs, then we'll be as good a team as we are in 3 years, all things being equal, but if he can't, we won't have a chance this year or any other year.

Nice long post Jim, but I have to disagree with you. Why does Shawn Marion have a lot to prove? And why does him not having a good playoff in 2004 have anything to do with playoffs in 2007?? I think that's utterly ridiculous. You can't base everything on your memory of Cliff Robinson... :D
 

jimjames1

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Nice long post Jim, but I have to disagree with you. Why does Shawn Marion have a lot to prove? And why does him not having a good playoff in 2004 have anything to do with playoffs in 2007?? I think that's utterly ridiculous. You can't base everything on your memory of Cliff Robinson...

Haha okay. What I'm saying though, is that we're going to have the same core 3 years from now, or 6 years ago. I think 3 superstars in Marbury, Amare, and Marion is good enough, and we're going to be just as strapped for cash in 3 years as we are now, because Penny and Googs' contracts are just going to be taken up by Amare's when it comes time to lock him up (that is, if he decides to sign a long term deal with us, which i believe he will.) As Amare gets better, we will improve, but the bottom line is, Shawn Marion will have to produce in the playoffs. He's one of our superstars, and do you honestly see us going anywhere significant with him shooting 25% from the field? He's played in the playoffs 3 times. In his rookie year, there was no real change in his statistics but he wasn't asked to step up anyway. In the Kings series he played poorly in all but 1 of the games, but he was very young, so that's more or less expected. But what about last year? He played pretty terribly, and yes, he did have Bruce Bowen guarding him, but you're always going to have tough defenses to play against in the playoffs. People say we lost the series because Marbury hurt his shoulder, and that's true, but only because we didn't have anybody who could step up and score when Steph could not. Marion should've stepped up, and he was unable to.

Now, I'm not sure if Marion will be able to carry us in the 2007 playoffs because his game may improve, but as it is now, he won't be able to, and he's shown no signs of improvement in the last 3 years that tells me this is going to change. I don't want to say that Marion is a player who can only score on the break, because that's not true of anybody who scores 21+ points per game in the NBA, but Marion nonetheless is not a type of player who can really create his own shot in a half-court set. If in 2007, if Marion relies on open 3's in the corner, fast-break dunks, and off-balance leaners from 17 feet to score, he's going to hinder our playoff success.

Everybody agrees Shawn needs to be able to finish in traffic. He added 7 pounds this offseason, so maybe he will be able to do that more effectively this season, but most likely that 7 pounds isn't going to help him in the least, considering it's only about a 3 percent increase in body weight. 3 years ago Shawn was one of the best players in the league at that mid-range jumper, which is crucial when teams really crank up their defense, but he seems to be going more and more away from that. Who knows, by 2007, Shawn may be solely a 3 pt shooter. What will we do then?

I'm willing to believe that Shawn may be a very good playoff performer in 2007, or 2006 or 2005 or even this year, it's just that he has never done anything to make me want to believe that. It seems like the more pressure we've put on this guy, the more poorly he's played. But the point I was originally trying to make is that a lot of our playoff success hinges on Marion anyway. If he plays well, we now have 3 superstars, and if he doesn't, we only have 2. So putting this 3 year timetable on when we should start to expect post-season success is bogus. In my opinion, we could be succesful this year, as long as we play up to our full potential, regardless of the situation. For somebody to say that we shouldn't expect to be succesful until 2007 is absurd, and I think that admitting to such an erroneous statement, and believing it to be true, pretty much gives this season and next no real point.
 

Errntknght

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JCSunsfan wrote, "I'd don't have a problem with the Suns putting together a fast-breaking team (I know there is a difference between a running team, and small ball, but I think some are confusing the two).

Some of you are young, I think, because you don't remember the great fast-breaking championship teams of the past.

The 1960's Celtics were a running team.
The 1970's Celtics were a running team. (with a 6-7 center in Cowans)
The 1980's Celtics were a running team.
The 1980's Lakers were a running team."


Red Auerbach would get a belly laugh out of comparing the Suns 'small ball' with the Celtics great fast break teams. His teams were always built around tenacious defense, particularly in the paint, and strong rebounding. He often pointed out that you couldn't run until you had the ball. Heck, even the 'show time' Lakers were tough on defense, no one talked about it is all.

The Suns have been soft in the middle since the team began and it looks to me like FJ is bent on continuing that tradition. Amare will probably be a good defender some day at PF, but he was far from it last year. 'Lost' is a fairly accurate description. Marion is fine at SF but he doesn't even want to hear about himself defending PF's. Scotty will be passable for 5 minutes/game. Let's see, that leaves Zarko and Googs... yikes! Well, maybe Archibald is the guy we were really after in that trade.

Even though Frank is talking about Voskuhl being his 'energy' guy off the bench, he's the closest thing we have to a decent center. If Frank had a half a brain he'd install Jake as the center and forget this 'energy guy' nonsense. Commit to him being the center, stress defending his own man and rebounding, give him a role in the offense and then pray! FJ had the perfect opportunity to try that last year and never seemed to even give it a thought, so I can't say I have much hope of him being rational this year. In fact, Jake runs the floor quite well for a center so he would fit with a 'running offense', as far as that goes.
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by jimjames1
The problem is, unless Carbakapa turns out to be a real good player, and history says this year he won't be, our bench is going to be even thinner than it was last year, which means we're going to see more lineups like the one i listed above.

How and when this history say he won't be a very good player? I think he is going to be a key contributor off the bench this season, and he'll get better as he gets stronger.

Originally posted by jimjames1
As Amare gets better, we will improve, but the bottom line is, Shawn Marion will have to produce in the playoffs. He's one of our superstars, and do you honestly see us going anywhere significant with him shooting 25% from the field? He's played in the playoffs 3 times. In his rookie year, there was no real change in his statistics but he wasn't asked to step up anyway. In the Kings series he played poorly in all but 1 of the games, but he was very young, so that's more or less expected. But what about last year? He played pretty terribly, and yes, he did have Bruce Bowen guarding him, but you're always going to have tough defenses to play against in the playoffs. People say we lost the series because Marbury hurt his shoulder, and that's true, but only because we didn't have anybody who could step up and score when Steph could not. Marion should've stepped up, and he was unable to.

You are right. Shawn Marion has not played very well in his last two playoff series. A few years ago against Sacramento in the first-round he had a great first game, and followed it up with some real duds. However after that first game he was frequently double-teamed in the half-court set. He had no idea how to deal with the double team. It was probably the first time he had seen one in the NBA.

Last year he was up against Bruce Bowen who is one of the best defenders in the NBA.

Still, I do agree that Shawn Marion needs to step up his play in the playoffs. He also needs to be more assertive about going to the basket during the regular season.

I read somewhere earlier today that he had added 14 lbs. of muscle, not 7. I read that he is up to 235 lbs..

Originally posted by Errntknght
Even though Frank is talking about Voskuhl being his 'energy' guy off the bench, he's the closest thing we have to a decent center. If Frank had a half a brain he'd install Jake as the center and forget this 'energy guy' nonsense. Commit to him being the center, stress defending his own man and rebounding, give him a role in the offense and then pray! FJ had the perfect opportunity to try that last year and never seemed to even give it a thought, so I can't say I have much hope of him being rational this year. In fact, Jake runs the floor quite well for a center so he would fit with a 'running offense', as far as that goes.

I don't think Frank Johnson is talking about having Jake Voskuhl run all over the court like Bo Outlaw used to do. He's just saying that Jake Voskuhl brings a lot of energy off the bench. He called Little Jake and Bo Outlaw "two live Crew" last season.

That said, I do agree that Little Jake needs to stay on his man instead of trying to block everything and play everywhere.

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Chaplin

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Originally posted by jimjames1
If we have Shawn Marion matched up against a power forward, we won't win. When we play the Grizzlies, Bo Outlaw will dominate Shawn in the post,

My God, I must have skipped over this.

Sorry Jim, but the whole point of your post is lost on me with absolutely ridiculous statements like this. I value your opinions because you're very well-spoken, but Bo Outlaw will dominat Shawn Marion in the post?? Are you nuts?

It'll probably be better if I don't respond to you anymore--I just can't believe you wrote that... :D :confused: :eek:
 
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