finley update

[Arizona's Finest]

sorry, I'm not letting this go as quickly and easily as Chaplin did. The point of this post in the previous one is lost on me. Scotsman is clearly giving his opinion in that initial post when he says "I think" several times, and then he gives his reasons for his thinking. What more do you want? If you mistakenly take that as fact you are simply an idiot.

This message board is as good as it is because there are a lot of good, informed opinions . If you want only facts and credible news you should stick to reading the hoops hype summaries each morning. Be careful for the editorials that are summarized. They are someone's opinion as well.

Joe Mama

calm down joe....I stated it earlier. I want everyone to share their opinion but state it as such. Its ok to think that Finley SHOULD come here (based on the logic everyone nationally and locally has used on why the suns are a positive) but to state it as a certainty based on your own bias thinking is just not thinking it completly through. Im not saying scotsman is dumb for wishfully thinking an outcome that he wants to come true, it just reeks of homerism and wearing the "purple tinted" glasses to not acknowledge that almost all evidence is pointing the other way.

Now i will admittedly state that my first post was while i was at work (understandly agitated) and before the most recent espn.com article that has led me to think that the Suns have a chance (i think its very small however). And really being that i live in miami, i have been getting some bias media, but thats why i come to this board. I need info im not getting. thats not scotsmans responsibility, but as you can tell im easily excited about news about my suns.

I respect most all of your knowledge on the NBA quite a bit (and that includes you joe, chap, graham, elindholm, george, cheesebeef, folster, fordronken and many others im forgetting) so i expect an NBA perspective when it comes to things like this because if i dont doublecheck, im likely to think that what you are stating is something i have yet to hear. Some accountability woud be nice as you will notice i hesitate to say anything is a "no-brainer" before it actually happens (which served me well with JJ and hopefully i will look foolish for worrying about Amare) and if someone states something as a certainty, i think we should have a thread dedicated to looking back and seeing how off base they actually were. I think that would keep people from being so stubborn in their opinions w/o considering the entire picture....

And one last point....

i believe you wrote this:

This message board is as good as it is because there are a lot of good, informed opinions

(noticed how i bolded a different word than yourself)

and my INFORMED opinion, is that its dumb to consider that Finley is almost suredly coming to Phoenix, and by that I stand.....

 

[coloradosun]

AZ Finest

I have agreed with on several occasions and you have done the same, lately it was on Tony Allen.

Yet you neglected to put me on the short list of informed posters, I am offended. Not really, I know I am not as up to date as most.

Yes, I rile things up with my conspiracy theories but that is just to add some entertainment value to this board. Some people do just come here throw out comments that is part of the board as well. Just take it all for what it is worth.

 

[Joe Mama]

i think that finley will sign with the suns. there are a couple reason for that. first if he goes to miami he will be in a lockerroom with walker and jason williams, 2 class "A" cancers. he has played with walker. and from what i heard he was almost uniformly disliked in the dallas lockerroom because he didnt think he should change the way that he played. second, he wont start at his position (shooting guard) heck he may not start at small forward. for the pistons he goes to the bench and i think the chances that the pistons even make it to the ECF are not that promising. with brown gone they will be moving back to just another playoff team.


again i think we will hear that finley will sign with the suns.

No offense scotsman but you (and the rest of the board) have no idea what you are talking about....You are trying to rationalize something that you want to take place and make it seem like it is an inevitable prospect. Sure there are some pros that Phoenix has that others dont, but read the writing on the wall. Finley to Phx. isn't likely to happen (unless my email changed his thought process )

Dont get your expectations up and please dont speak like you have some kind of base knowledge about Finley's descision making process because others reading might think you know something they dont.and you dont. In fact as unreliable as these writers could turn out to be, you have to concede that wherver they maybe getting their info, its a unamed "source" neither you and I have. Now if Folster with his roomate connection has something to say, I am all ears......

calm down joe....I stated it earlier. I want everyone to share their opinion but state it as such. Its ok to think that Finley SHOULD come here (based on the logic everyone nationally and locally has used on why the suns are a positive) but to state it as a certainty based on your own bias thinking is just not thinking it completly through. Im not saying scotsman is dumb for wishfully thinking an outcome that he wants to come true, it just reeks of homerism and wearing the "purple tinted" glasses to not acknowledge that almost all evidence is pointing the other way.

Now i will admittedly state that my first post was while i was at work (understandly agitated) and before the most recent espn.com article that has led me to think that the Suns have a chance (i think its very small however). And really being that i live in miami, i have been getting some bias media, but thats why i come to this board. I need info im not getting. thats not scotsmans responsibility, but as you can tell im easily excited about news about my suns.

I respect most all of your knowledge on the NBA quite a bit (and that includes you joe, chap, graham, elindholm, george, cheesebeef, folster, fordronken and many others im forgetting) so i expect an NBA perspective when it comes to things like this because if i dont doublecheck, im likely to think that what you are stating is something i have yet to hear. Some accountability woud be nice as you will notice i hesitate to say anything is a "no-brainer" before it actually happens (which served me well with JJ and hopefully i will look foolish for worrying about Amare) and if someone states something as a certainty, i think we should have a thread dedicated to looking back and seeing how off base they actually were. I think that would keep people from being so stubborn in their opinions w/o considering the entire picture....

And one last point....

i believe you wrote this:

This message board is as good as it is because there are a lot of good, informed opinions

(noticed how i bolded a different word than yourself)

and my INFORMED opinion, is that its dumb to consider that Finley is almost suredly coming to Phoenix, and by that I stand.....

Please take a few minutes and read what Scotsman originally wrote, your response, and finally your response to me. Nowhere did Scotsman claim to have some sort of inside information. By "informed opinions" I did not mean that everyone here has this inside information. You would have to be stupid to believe that.

When I talk about the "informed opinions" on this message board I'm talking about the fact that most of the regular posters here have a pretty good grasp on the game and held the league works. For the most part it isn't a bunch of casual fans posting random thoughts. Scotsman clearly made his case for what he thinks will happen with Michael Finley. It seems to me that you only attacked his post because you think it's more likely than not that Michael Finley will not sign with the Phoenix Suns.

I have no problem which you disagreeing with Scotsman about the chances that Michael Finley will become a Phoenix Sun. I just don't want to see any more of these posts telling people what they should or shouldn't write because you can't figure out that using the phrase "I think" repeatedly means the poster is stating his opinion. Frankly people don't even need to write "I think" or "in my opinion" before everything they post that's their own opinion. You really should feel to figure it out on your own.

Frankly I'm not even sure why Chap deleted his post and apologized to you. I thought he was right on the money. I have no idea how you could get bent out of shape about Chaplin's comments regarding JJ's preferred position. He can write whatever he wants here as long as he's not trolling, using offensive language, and/or attacking other posters.

I think some sort of accountability thread would be fun and interesting, but it's hardly needed here. I would say accountability is too strong a word anyhow. This is a message board for goodness sakes. We aren't writing for a newspaper or sports web site.

Joe

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Please take a few minutes and read what Scotsman originally wrote, your response, and finally your response to me. Nowhere did Scotsman claim to have some sort of inside information. By "informed opinions" I did not mean that everyone here has this inside information. You would have to be stupid to believe that.

When I talk about the "informed opinions" on this message board I'm talking about the fact that most of the regular posters here have a pretty good grasp on the game and held the league works. For the most part it isn't a bunch of casual fans posting random thoughts. Scotsman clearly made his case for what he thinks will happen with Michael Finley. It seems to me that you only attacked his post because you think it's more likely than not that Michael Finley will not sign with the Phoenix Suns.

I have no problem which you disagreeing with Scotsman about the chances that Michael Finley will become a Phoenix Sun. I just don't want to see any more of these posts telling people what they should or shouldn't write because you can't figure out that using the phrase "I think" repeatedly means the poster is stating his opinion. Frankly people don't even need to write "I think" or "in my opinion" before everything they post that's their own opinion. You really should feel to figure it out on your own.

Frankly I'm not even sure why Chap deleted his post and apologized to you. I thought he was right on the money. I have no idea how you could get bent out of shape about Chaplin's comments regarding JJ's preferred position. He can write whatever he wants here as long as he's not trolling, using offensive language, and/or attacking other posters.

I think some sort of accountability thread would be fun and interesting, but it's hardly needed here. I would say accountability is too strong a word anyhow. This is a message board for goodness sakes. We aren't writing for a newspaper or sports web site.

Joe

Joe im over it....i came across as condescending in the first post and i apologized. I still stand by my point of my preference to have informed opinions and despite what you might think i am glad to read differing opinions. Really again i thought it was dumb to state that Finley IS coming here (which is what scotsman stated, despite his use of IMO) and that Phoenix is his best option. Thats just plain not true although its entirely subjective. $$$$$$ talks and the last week i have realized that many of us fans are failing to grasp this concept.

Im stating your point for you. I had an opinion, i didnt tell scotsman to leave and never come back. I just want some actual concept of understanding the entire situation before making comments on how you think something is going to happen. Thats not to much to ask. If you want to post w/ kiddies who spout off inane ideas and out of this world propositions than that is your decsion but its not my preference (and the last comment is not in reference to our beloved scotsman) Its been my experience as i stated earlier that everyone here is wonderfully informed and if i feel they are making too STRONG of comments when evidence suggests otherwise, im def. going to say something. and that is my opinion on the subject and I like Scotsman, will post how i feel. If he wants to bash my POV, then bring it on....THAT is the point of a message board....

Chaplin and I have a love/hate argumentative relationship on this message board and i actually look forward to posting and then having him come in and lay the axe on me....as he did this time....

Coloradosun there was no excuse for your omission.....I'm with you brother...Tony Allen all the way

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Well, if it is down to Detroit and Miami, it may be only down to Miami. Detroit is said to have offered a good portion of their MLE to Dale Davis.

San Antonio may meet Finley on Thursday. Some deemed Detroit to be Miami's stiffest competition in the Finley chase, but the Pistons agreed to a two-year, $7 million deal Monday with Dale Davis. That takes take up most of the $5 million midlevel exception Detroit would have offered Finley.

from azcentral.com

 

[elindholm]

$$$$$$ talks and the last week i have realized that many of us fans are failing to grasp this concept.

You're doing exactly the same thing that you accused scottsman of, which is to base your opinion on something subjective ("money talks") and then spin it into ironclad fact.

Did you not read the reports saying that Brian Grant turned down more money to come to Phoenix?

Have you not noticed that Shaquille O'Neal, and Kevin Garnett two years before him, agreed to more affordable contracts so that their teams could try to get better?

Are you oblivious to the salary analysis that has been done over and over on this board, showing that the difference in what Finley can make next year is a drop in the bucket compared to his lifetime earnings?

When you read the recent Sports Illustrated article about Larry Hughes, did you fail to notice that, by the time all was said and done, Washington was offering him more money than Cleveland, but he decided to go to Cleveland anyway?

In spite of all of the speculation -- especially the media "reports" that each repeat what the last one said, using slight rewordings -- no one knows where Finley is going to go. Probably not even Finley. We can guess that money will be the factor, or we can guess that other incentives will be. No one knows, and it is arrogant and, frankly, just not very smart to claim that Finley's priorities will necessarily fall in one column or the other.

 

[hcsilla]

Have you not noticed that Shaquille O'Neal, and Kevin Garnett two years before him, agreed to more affordable contracts so that their teams could try to get better?

Did they really have another possibility?

MIN still paid much more money for KG than anyone else could.

 

[elindholm]

Did they really have another possibility?

That's a valid point, although the reports were that the reduced salary was the player's idea in each case.

 

[Joe Mama]

It was Michael Finley himself who originally said that playing time would be one of the major factors in his decision. This was before he was even released. As far as I know he hasn't said anything since about where he might end up going.

BTW I was just listening to Gambo's opinions on the Michael Finley situation. He was saying that the Phoenix Suns should offer him a two-year deal for the minimum with a player option on the second year. That's really the best they can do. He also said it should be a wink wink deal with the understanding that they would give him the fold mid-level exception next summer. I don't like that.

I could probably handle giving Michael Finley the mid-level exception next year if it was only a one-year deal, but I don't want him signed at $5 million per season for multiple seasons. I'm really beginning to think I would rather Michael Finley went somewhere else. I just wish he was going to Detroit instead of Miami or especially San Antonio.

I would like to see Jimmy Jackson and Raja Bell playing 25-30 minutes per game next season.

Joe Mama

 

[Arizona's Finest]

$$$$$$ talks and the last week i have realized that many of us fans are failing to grasp this concept.

You're doing exactly the same thing that you accused scottsman of, which is to base your opinion on something subjective ("money talks") and then spin it into ironclad fact.

Did you not read the reports saying that Brian Grant turned down more money to come to Phoenix?

Have you not noticed that Shaquille O'Neal, and Kevin Garnett two years before him, agreed to more affordable contracts so that their teams could try to get better?

Are you oblivious to the salary analysis that has been done over and over on this board, showing that the difference in what Finley can make next year is a drop in the bucket compared to his lifetime earnings?

When you read the recent Sports Illustrated article about Larry Hughes, did you fail to notice that, by the time all was said and done, Washington was offering him more money than Cleveland, but he decided to go to Cleveland anyway?

In spite of all of the speculation -- especially the media "reports" that each repeat what the last one said, using slight rewordings -- no one knows where Finley is going to go. Probably not even Finley. We can guess that money will be the factor, or we can guess that other incentives will be. No one knows, and it is arrogant and, frankly, just not very smart to claim that Finley's priorities will necessarily fall in one column or the other.

geez guys this has gone way to far....apparently im not the only person who really wants finley on this team....

My point is there is no way all these informed sources are all wrong in their thinking....ONCE AGAIN i wrote the initial post after the newest espn.com article whic clearly states "no one knows what Finley is thinking" so there seems to be a small chance that this could go the suns way...but i want to bring up a few points about all the great reasons Finley wants to come here.

1. "He was drafted by the organization" my response to that is "AND?"...while im sure familiarity with BC and AWA are strong drawing points lets be honest about this. Everything is different from when he last left. Different coach, Different owner, Different star, Different uniforms, Different style of play. If it was between Dallas and Miami, the familiarity point may make sense but even the PHX metro area is completly different. Hes not coming back to the Phoenix Suns of 1998.....

2. "Hes great friends with Nash"...I agree and he must know how Nash will help his numbers BUT Nash is one of the most loyal good guys in sports and when Phoenix offered MORE MONEY ( i know someone sees the irony there) he left his BEST FRIEND in Dirk Nowitzki....

3. "Phoenix is a metropolis with great weather" and miami isn't?

4. "He will start here"- now this is by far the biggest drawing point but does anyone think that Riles and Van Gundy were not in his ear yesterday telling him "Antoine or Haslem will come off the bench if you come to Miami, you are our starting three" Think about it...Finley makes them the favorite for the entire thing...they are going to go all out to get this guy

5. "he can win a ring and be the savior"- Yeah as idealic as this sounds i really dont think pros factor this kind of thing in. If he goes to Miami and wins, he will likely get his lion share of credit and he gets all the money.....plus im no sure if the guy is married but dont you think his significant other AND agent are saying "Let go to South Beach and get the money"

...cmon guys dont jump all over me because im the voice of reason here. That Stien article gave me hope but i dont want everyone (and most importantly myself ) to get our hopes up only to be let down. Im being pessimisstic but im being real. I hope like heck the guy eschews all the points i just made and comes to PHX, but i wouldn't bet on it

elindholm, you refer to grant and hughes when talking about money not being a huge factor....well lets look at the thought process of both...

Grant " i could make a couple more million over a couple more years to play for say Charlotte or Seattle, or i could come resucitate my career with Nash for comprable (albiet less) money"

Hughes " I could accept up and coming Washington's large offer and continue to share the backcourt spot light with Arenas (you dont think Arenas getting all the playoff love didnt bother him. Ive met Gil...hes a cocky SOB...and i love him) and with no inside game so to speak of. Or i could go to a Cleveland, where they just put a boatload of money into a center and PF as well as having one of the five best players in the game on my team. To boot Lebron passes the ball and Gil deosnt. Im the 3rd option in Washington but the second option in Cleveland. Where do i sign?"

All things being equal (as in Fins preference to play for a ring) wouldnt you go where the money is? And when i say money i mean like 19 million more guaranteed over a four year contract. I hope im wrong and i will make a thread for all the crow i eat and i will do it with a smile but i dont think i am......

 

[myrondizzo]

isnt it more like 10 mil because he only gets half of the 2nd contract?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think you are missing the point. People aren't upset at you for your stance on the situation. In fact, there could very well be a lot of people that agree with you.

The problem that people are having in this thread is that you complain that people act like they have information and understanding of an issue when they don't. Then you go around and do the exact same thing.

It isn't the views that is annoying, it is the hypocracy.

 

[elindholm]

Did you read my post at all? What you just did was outline your thought process and dismiss everyone else's.

I'll drop it, except for one other point:

My point is there is no way all these informed sources are all wrong in their thinking...

Of course there is. If you read online sports coverage carefully, you'll see the same pattern over and over again: One source reports one quasi-fact or speculation, and then everyone picks up on exactly the same thing, pretending to pass it off as their own discovery. It's not "all these informed sources." It's ONE source, which may or may not be informed, and which everyone is quoting and requoting over and over. Huge difference.

Also, for the 500 billionth time, the difference is not $19 million. First of all, it's highly unlikely that Miami would give him the MLE for four years, which is what would be necessary to get him close to that number. And second of all, half of whatever he makes goes back to Dallas anyway.

It is certainly possible that the decision is clear in Finley's mind and that he will choose Miami over Phoenix and everywhere else. But please don't delude yourself into believing that you understand his reasoning.

 

[Chaplin]

It is certainly possible that the decision is clear in Finley's mind and that he will choose Miami over Phoenix and everywhere else. But please don't delude yourself into believing that you understand his reasoning.

Weird, he accused me of the same exact thing in regards to Joe Johnson and Atlanta.

 

[fordronken]

isnt it more like 10 mil because he only gets half of the 2nd contract?

People also don't factor taxes into this, which, when dealing with money of these amounts ends up becoming about half what you're actually getting paid. However, if I remember correctly, Florida has some of the kindest tax breaks for rich people.

 

[myrondizzo]

People also don't factor taxes into this, which, when dealing with money of these amounts ends up becoming about half what you're actually getting paid. However, if I remember correctly, Florida has some of the kindest tax breaks for rich people.

but federal taxes are where you really get hit hardest regaurdless of which state you live in.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

calm down joe....I stated it earlier. I want everyone to share their opinion but state it as such. Its ok to think that Finley SHOULD come here (based on the logic everyone nationally and locally has used on why the suns are a positive) but to state it as a certainty based on your own bias thinking is just not thinking it completly through. Im not saying scotsman is dumb for wishfully thinking an outcome that he wants to come true, it just reeks of homerism and wearing the "purple tinted" glasses to not acknowledge that almost all evidence is pointing the other way.

Now i will admittedly state that my first post was while i was at work (understandly agitated) and before the most recent espn.com article that has led me to think that the Suns have a chance (i think its very small however). And really being that i live in miami, i have been getting some bias media, but thats why i come to this board. I need info im not getting. thats not scotsmans responsibility, but as you can tell im easily excited about news about my suns.

I respect most all of your knowledge on the NBA quite a bit (and that includes you joe, chap, graham, elindholm, george, cheesebeef, folster, fordronken and many others im forgetting) so i expect an NBA perspective when it comes to things like this because if i dont doublecheck, im likely to think that what you are stating is something i have yet to hear. Some accountability woud be nice as you will notice i hesitate to say anything is a "no-brainer" before it actually happens (which served me well with JJ and hopefully i will look foolish for worrying about Amare) and if someone states something as a certainty, i think we should have a thread dedicated to looking back and seeing how off base they actually were. I think that would keep people from being so stubborn in their opinions w/o considering the entire picture....

And one last point....

i believe you wrote this:

This message board is as good as it is because there are a lot of good, informed opinions

(noticed how i bolded a different word than yourself)

and my INFORMED opinion, is that its dumb to consider that Finley is almost suredly coming to Phoenix, and by that I stand.....

damnit, i'm always the invisible freaking man...

 

[Chaplin]

damnit, i'm always the invisible freaking man...

Funny how the REAL invisible man (cheese) is mentioned and not the only one of you two that actually still posts...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Funny how the REAL invisible man (cheese) is mentioned and not the only one of you two that actually still posts...

it hurts living in your younger sibling's shadow on this board. it really cuts to the core . . .

 

[CaptainInsano]

At least from what I read lately it sounds like it's narrowed to suns vs miami, though I would have rather had miami out first for competition of finley.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

it hurts living in your younger sibling's shadow on this board. it really cuts to the core . . .

Learning new things every day....ouchie i think you have good things to say as well


Ok since i have managed to rile up the ENTIRE message board community (im half expecting Brian in Mesa to get a potshot in here somewhere) i will just stand down and for the THIRD time i'm apologizing for coming down on scotsman. I have strong opinions as most of us do and it is not right for me to come down on someone for having a different opinion then mine. I still contend that my POV is the most logical and therefore most likely correct but that doesn't mean scotsman can't think that finley is coming to Phoenix.

I will forwarn you all for future reference though. If i think someones opinion is flat out wrong either by its basis or entirely i will come down with my thoughts on your post and depending on my mood, it might be kind of harsh. But im not one of these people who can dish it out and not take it, so feel free....(in fact i wish poor scotsman was a little more vociferous in telling me why im wrong because in reality all im looking for is good discourse) and more than likely being the introspective person i am, i will realize i was to harsh and apologize profusely afterwards...much like today....

so to recap: I Have strong opinions, i believe them to be correct, and my intention when posting can come across the wrong way...and i apologize for coming down on scotsman (BTW being from salt lake and aptly named scotsman, is it possible this is actually Scott Church from hoopsworld? I mean there can only be one scott in Salt Lake, am I right???? )

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Weird, he accused me of the same exact thing in regards to Joe Johnson and Atlanta.

Ahhh caught in my own hypocracy.........well im not trying to tell you what Fins thinks, im saying looking at from the perspective of someone who isnt a SUNS FAN (and by that i am not talking about myself but the other 249 million people in the country who arn't big time fans of this team).

The best part about all this is I think everyone i listed as people who are informed have managed to take the time to post about what an ass i am, so i take it back....you all have no idea what you are talking about!

Alright before the bile comes up in all your throats that last line was a joke.....once again i COULD be wrong about all this....and i hope i am

 

[Chaplin]

You must be registered for see images

 

[SactownSunsFan]

They wasted their money making that banner. After all, this is what Finley will look like next season

You must be registered for see images

 

[KloD]

...looking at from the perspective of someone who isnt a SUNS FAN (and by that i am not talking about myself but the other 249 million people in the country who arn't big time fans of this team).

Wow, the Suns have 51 million fans!!!