Finley?

[George O'Brien]

Marion is one of the best finishers on the fast break in the NBA on a team that thrives on the fast break. Dumping Marion to load up on golden oldies and backup role players does not looke like a good move to me.

 

[cly2tw]

Amare/KT/Mutombo/Gaduric/Marshall/Finley/JJ/Mason/JJ2/Barbosa/Nash/Payton/#21/#57

That's ridiculous. Marshall, Finley, and Payton could theoretically come to the Suns anyway; it's not like dumping Marion will make Phoenix more attractive to free agents. So basically you are trading Marion for Gadzuric, Mason, and room for Mutombo. That is a horrible trade.

If the Suns are able to sign Marshall -- or any other good player -- for the MLE, their current roster will be better than what you've offered above.

Finley and Payton wouldn't want to play 5min a game to come here, would they? By trading away an allstar, it opens up additional 40min playing time to attract those vets. Let's see.

C: KT 24min, Gadzu. 14, Mutombo 10
PF: Amare 36, Gadz. 4, Marshall 8,
SF: Finley 24, Mason 12, Marshall 12
SG: Joe 36, Mason 12
PG: Nash 30, Payton 18

Among the swingmen, besides Joe the playing time is open for competition, which is not the case if both Joe and Marion are the incumbents. And for the future, if because of Marion's dominant role Finley doesn't want to come here, we'd have to look for backup at 2/3 next season again while with my proposal we'd still have the solid core of Joe/Finley/Mason there. And though not a good 3pt shooter yet, Mason is at least as athletic as Marion and a better defender at 2/3 I believe.

 

[cly2tw]

Marion is one of the best finishers on the fast break in the NBA on a team that thrives on the fast break. Dumping Marion to load up on golden oldies and backup role players does not looke like a good move to me.

Desmond Mason is not your average backup role player! Because his contract is more reasonable, the deal is financially helpful too.

 

[Phill11]

C: KT 24min, Gadzu. 14, Mutombo 10
PF: Amare 36, Gadz. 4, Marshall 8,
SF: Finley 24, Mason 12, Marshall 12
SG: Joe 36, Mason 12
PG: Nash 30, Payton 18

Too many minutes for Mason and Gadz. and not enough minutes for Nash, Payton, Thomas.

I'd perfer this:

C: Amare (8), Thomas (30) Voshkul/Diogu(10)
PF: Marion (18), Amare (30)
SF: JJ (30), Marion (18)
SG: Finley (25), JJax(15), Payton (8)
PG: Nash (35), Payton (13)

I would much rather see that. With those types of minutes the lineups on the floor could be:

Nash, Finley, JJ, Marion, Amare - Our starting 5. Could outrun any team, but is strong in the center. Could match up against teams without great centers extremely well.

Payton, JJax, Marion, Amare, Thomas - This team would be effective while letting our vets, Nash and Finley rest. Payton running the point is a huge upgrade over Barbosa and then Thomas + Amare in the low post makes any team shiver.

Nash, Payton, JJ, Diogu, Thomas - This lineup gives Marion and Amare breathers. The biggest thing about this lineup is Payton. Him at SG worries me a bit, but Nash/Payton passing to Thomas/Diogu down low is really attractive.

I'm overanalyzing but what the hell, It's almost 12, the brand new puppy won't stop whining. I've got nothing better to do.

 

[cly2tw]

Phill11,

the playoffs told us and the whole league what the achiles heel of the current Suns team is: Heavy reliance on Nash's creating space for others. Most apparent in the WCF, good defensive teams can cut the ties of Nash to others and thus forcing us into one-on-one games. For this kind of offense, Marion is almost useless. With that, there is no reason to play him at PF on defense. So, next season, we will have to practise a lot how to play without Nash handling the ball and thus we must play normal ball instead of skill ball the majority of time. In fact, with Marshall on board, Marion should never play PF at all since Marshall is much better suited for that role in a small lineup.

 

[Phill11]

Phill11,

the playoffs told us and the whole league what the achiles heel of the current Suns team is: Heavy reliance on Nash's creating space for others. Most apparent in the WCF, good defensive teams can cut the ties of Nash to others and thus forcing us into one-on-one games. For this kind of offense, Marion is almost useless. With that, there is no reason to play him at PF on defense. So, next season, we will have to practise a lot how to play without Nash handling the ball and thus we must play normal ball instead of skill ball the majority of time. In fact, with Marshall on board, Marion should never play PF at all since Marshall is much better suited for that role in a small lineup.

But in 2 years is this team even fun to watch? Marshall is aging, along with Mutumbo (Who hopefully is retired by then).

In a one on one game, we won't be shut out with all these options: Amare, Nash, Marion, Finley, Thomas, Jackson and Johnson. If those guys only score 10 points a game that's still 70 points!

And if I go with my guy feeling, Amare is going to get 30 a game this coming season.

I feel that Thomas coming off the bench would benefit much more than Marshall + Mutumbo + etc. coming off.

Marion shouldn't play PF? Sure, I can see your point to an extent. But it suits the team. Marion did a decent job on Nowitzki. Against a good team such as the Spurs we could use a starting 5 of Nash, JJ, Marion, Amare, Thomas. Amare and Thomas double teaming Duncan would shut him down. But then what about Ginobli? Throw Marion on him and then have Nash try to cover Parker. With Marion on Manu, he's shut down along with Duncan.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Cly2tw,

I don't mind the Marion trade proposals when they are interesting. Trading for cap space isn't interesting.

Please try to be more creative in your next dump Marion idea (which is due in about 36 hours)

 

[HooverDam]

C: Amare (8), Thomas (30) Voshkul/Diogu(10)
PF: Marion (18), Amare (30)
SF: JJ (30), Marion (18)
SG: Finley (25), JJax(15), Payton (8)
PG: Nash (35), Payton (13)

Interesting, however I would change it a bit. I would say start JJ at SG and Finley at SF.As far as size goes, they are identical, 6-7, about 230lbs. But I think Joe is a better passer and works better out of the back court.

Because of his health and one dimensionality in recent years, I think they should not start Finley. Go w/ Amare-Thomas-Marion-JJ-Nash to start. Also, I'd say play both JJax and Finley 20 minutes a game.

Also, get rid of Jake Voskul anyway possible, he is bringing nothing to this team right now and he's doing it at a high price

 

[cly2tw]

Cly2tw,

I don't mind the Marion trade proposals when they are interesting. Trading for cap space isn't interesting.

Please try to be more creative in your next dump Marion idea (which is due in about 36 hours)

Here you go another one as per your request:

PHx send off Marion + Jake, get back Batier, Wells, Boston's #19, Mem's #18. Then we don't pick up Wells option and can get about 12mil under cap. We'd have our choice of either Swift starting at 7mil or Kwame Brown starting at 5mil and Marshall for 4mil. etc. (Getting Petro, Garcia/Ukic and Diogu/Taft with the picks.) At the SF, both Batier and Finley are better one-on-one defenders than Marion.

Boston ship away Pierce, Blount, #19 get back Marion, Lo Wright.
Mem send off Batier, Wells, Wright, #18, get back Pierce and Blount.

 

[Joe Mama]

I know I said that the Phoenix Suns would not trade Q this early. I was wrong. I still say there is no way that they would trade Shawn Marion this summer, and they certainly aren't trading both Q and Marion this summer.

AsUdUdE, welcome to the messageboard. I think your first post was excellent. I don't think the Phoenix Suns want to start a small lineup again though. Here's why. They want to make their players happy, and I don't see Amare, Shawn Marion, or Joe Johnson happy playing a lot of small ball and losing out on more shot opportunities with Finley in the lineup. I think the coaches would probably love it. I agree that Finley is still a better player than Q. He might have struggled some last season (bone spurs, age, or both), but he was still a better shooter, better ball handler, and better defender than Q.

David Griffith (Phoenix Suns player personnel director I believe) was on Sports Tonight last night. Tom Zenner asked whether the trade was going to make Amare much happier because it would allow him to move back to his natural position of power forward. Griffiths implied that we would still see Amare at center when he said that Amare seemed most excited at the prospect of being a point center. I have no problem with that. I do, however, think the team still needs a true center off the bench who can come in and bang with some of the bigger middlemen in the NBA.

Without assigning position to anybody because there is so much versatility on this team...

36 - Amare Stoudemire
30 - Kurt Thomas
36 - Shawn Marion
38 - Joe Johnson
33 - Steve Nash

25 - Jim Jackson

That's 195 minutes leaving 240 minutes for anybody else. Now that may look like plenty of time for guys like Gary Payton and/or Michael Finley. I think they need to give at least 20 of it and maybe more to a big man free agent. That leaves 25 minutes per game. If you want your draft pick to play at all he's going to get at least 10 minutes per game. Of course that doesn't necessarily have to happen if they draft someone who they keep overseas or trade the pick altogether. Then a guy like Michael Finley makes some sense.

I think I liked the idea of having a strong nucleus with nice, good role players rather than Coach Mike sweating every game while he tries keep everybody happy with their minutes.

Joe Mama

 

[devilalum]

There are 240 playing minutes in a game.

5 starters 35 minutes each
3 bench players 22 minutes each

The Suns currently have 6 quality players, they need 2 more guys that are willing to play off the bench.

I'd settle for Marshall and Payton.

Starters

Amare
Marion
JJ
Thomas
Nash

Bench
JJax
Marshall
Payton
#21
Waltah
Whatever the cat drags in....

D'Antoni will play the guys who produce. I don't necessarily see Thomas playing 35 minutes a night on a regular basis and we all know they'd like to keep Nash's minutes closer to 30 a game. Payton and Marshall would both have the opportunity to get well over 20 minutes a game. But a vet who'd be the 9th or 10th guy off the bench might not be very happy. Waltah would be the perfect guy for this role.

I was really high on Marshall before but Thomas kind of fills the role I envisioned him playing. Since the Suns traded small for big they may want to use the big MLE on a more athletic guy.

 

[F-Dog]

I think the Suns are drafting big, so they're going to need at least one more guard. Finley would be just about perfect--he's a catch-and-shoot guy on offense at this point, but that's what the Suns turned Q into, and Finley is a higher-percentage shooter than Q. Plus, Finley should still have good chemistry with Nash.

I don't have any illusions as to what it's going to take to get Finley, though. Finley will expect the MLE, possibly for four years (the special waiver rule says he'll get half of what he signs for while his old contract runs). He'll probably demand to start, too, although I'm not convinced that would be a problem for the Suns.

The Suns' biggest need is another swingman. I'm not sure how they could do better than Finley this summer, given the few assets they've got left.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Finley is Marion to the umpteenth degree - at least Marion played well for two rounds before he went into a complete sheel against SA. Finely's always been a guy who can't produce with the game on the line (the exception being his only great game against us in Game2 - notice how AWOL he was after that?).

Screw Michael Finley - this team needs mentally strong players, not softies like him.

 

[jbeecham]

Finley is Marion to the umpteenth degree - at least Marion played well for two rounds before he went into a complete sheel against SA. Finely's always been a guy who can't produce with the game on the line (the exception being his only great game against us in Game2 - notice how AWOL he was after that?).

Screw Michael Finley - this team needs mentally strong players, not softies like him.

I agree with what you're saying, although Finley would be a 4th-6th option on the Suns instead of a 2nd or 3rd option in Dallas's offense so there would be less pressure to create his own shot and he'd simply have to make wide open shots like Q was getting. Our likelyhood of getting Finley has dropped now since the new information of the players waived via the one-time luxury tax avoidance in the new CBA will still get paid by their previous team + get half of the value of their new contract on top of it (Finley owed $15 mil/yr by Dallas, Suns give him a contract of $5 mil/yr, Dallas then pays Finley $12.5/yr and Finley actually makes $17.5/yr because of the Suns contract). The likelyhood of Finley signing for the minimum is reduced although still possible if he wants to be on a certain team badly enough.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm going with Miami, Detroit, and an outside shot of Minnesota as the most likely destinations for Finley.

Joe Mama

 

[asudevil83]

i think a semi-logical "trade" would be between Miami and Dallas....where Dallas releases Finley who signs for the min with Miami, and Miami releases Jones who signs for the min with Dallas.

other than that....the next most logical destination is Phoenix. we drafted him, and the fans here have always loved him.

then i'd say that anyone is up for the next grabs. a team that is in playoff contention and can offer him a starting role would be next up.....followed by playoff teams who can offer him the 6th man role.....followed by crappy teams that can offer him a starting spot.....followed by crappy teams who offer him a 6th man role.

 

[HooverDam]

I think the thing w/ Finley is if he is cut, he will go where he wants to go. Detroit doesnt seem like a good fit, its a slow, half court, defensive team (though that may change a bit if they have a new coach next year). I think the Suns style compliments Finley very well. I'd love to see him play in Phoenix and finish his career here- but not as a starter.Imagine this lineup:

PC Amare- 35 mins a game
PF KT- 25 mins a game
SF Marion-35 mins a game
SG JJ- 35 mins a game
PG Nash- 30 mins a game

That leaves 80 mins for the bench would could be:

PG Payton- 20 mins a game
SG JJax- 15 mins a game
SF Finley- 20 mins a game
PF #21/Ike/whatever big guy we draft- 12/13 mins a game
C Hunter/FA big guy- 12/13 mins a game

A line up like this would be insanely good. However I dont think its possible. JJax and Finleys games overlap somewhat. Having them both would probably make it hard to resign Hunter of find his replacement.

This lineup would have us playing small ball most of the time, and probably using KT to start and close out games. I also kind of doubt D'Antoni would use a 10 man rotation.

If we did sign Finley AND Payton, what big guys would we be able to afford?

 

[Joe Mama]

I think the thing w/ Finley is if he is cut, he will go where he wants to go. Detroit doesnt seem like a good fit, its a slow, half court, defensive team (though that may change a bit if they have a new coach next year). I think the Suns style compliments Finley very well. I'd love to see him play in Phoenix and finish his career here- but not as a starter.Imagine this lineup:

PC Amare- 35 mins a game
PF KT- 25 mins a game
SF Marion-35 mins a game
SG JJ- 35 mins a game
PG Nash- 30 mins a game

That leaves 80 mins for the bench would could be:

PG Payton- 20 mins a game
SG JJax- 15 mins a game
SF Finley- 20 mins a game
PF #21/Ike/whatever big guy we draft- 12/13 mins a game
C Hunter/FA big guy- 12/13 mins a game

A line up like this would be insanely good. However I dont think its possible. JJax and Finleys games overlap somewhat. Having them both would probably make it hard to resign Hunter of find his replacement.

This lineup would have us playing small ball most of the time, and probably using KT to start and close out games. I also kind of doubt D'Antoni would use a 10 man rotation.

If we did sign Finley AND Payton, what big guys would we be able to afford?

I'm not sure how it would work from game to game, but I don't see Michael Finley, Gary Payton, Jimmy Jackson, and possibly a couple of the starters happy with those minutes. Perhaps the starters would be fine. I was just thinking that Joe Johnson probably wants to play a couple more minutes per game.

I think Gary Payton will want AT LEAST 25 minutes per game. Finley will want AT LEAST 30.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Simple question: does the player want minutes or a ring. Plenty of minutes in Atlanta and New Orleans on teams with money to burn. But to join the Suns means forgetting what life was before and focusing on a chance of a lifetime.

During this season Bo Outlaw played about as much as Darko and he never complained. My guess is that Zarko complained and the Suns met his wish to be traded to where he could play. But Zarko is young and wants a chance to make a name for himself in the NBA. Bo was willing to give up having a chance to play to be along for the ride and do what he could to help.

Not many guys would give up their ego just to part of a top team, but there are some and it is a huge opportunity for the Suns.

 

[cly2tw]

Finley is Marion to the umpteenth degree - at least Marion played well for two rounds before he went into a complete sheel against SA. Finely's always been a guy who can't produce with the game on the line (the exception being his only great game against us in Game2 - notice how AWOL he was after that?).

Screw Michael Finley - this team needs mentally strong players, not softies like him.

The difference is that Finley, if he joins the Suns, would play at the min. salary while Marion at the max. So, the correct question is, would Finley + 12 mil cap space better or worse than Marion, when you compare them at the current stage of process.

 

[cly2tw]

Simple question: does the player want minutes or a ring. Plenty of minutes in Atlanta and New Orleans on teams with money to burn. But to join the Suns means forgetting what life was before and focusing on a chance of a lifetime.

During this season Bo Outlaw played about as much as Darko and he never complained. My guess is that Zarko complained and the Suns met his wish to be traded to where he could play. But Zarko is young and wants a chance to make a name for himself in the NBA. Bo was willing to give up having a chance to play to be along for the ride and do what he could to help.

Not many guys would give up their ego just to part of a top team, but there are some and it is a huge opportunity for the Suns.

I'd say it's about a combination of wanting a ring and having playing time. If you have a couple of equally likely contenders, you'd like to go the one you contribute most.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd say it's about a combination of wanting a ring and having playing time. If you have a couple of equally likely contenders, you'd like to go the one you contribute most.

This is why I suspect that Marshall will end up in Miami.

Finley is facing surgery on his ankle, so it is not clear what kind of player he will be next season. Best guess is that his minutes drop where ever he goes.

GP should be able to get 20 minutes on the Suns. In this case, he would have no illusions about replacing Nash. It all depends on how much he wants it.

Mutombo might have a bunch of DNP's on the Suns, but that is what he could expect on any team. It wouldn't matter. He would join the Suns in order to get a chance to play the Spurs. The rest is just preseason.

 

[cly2tw]

This is why I suspect that Marshall will end up in Miami.

Finley is facing surgery on his ankle, so it is not clear what kind of player he will be next season. Best guess is that his minutes drop where ever he goes.

GP should be able to get 20 minutes on the Suns. In this case, he would have no illusions about replacing Nash. It all depends on how much he wants it.

Mutombo might have a bunch of DNP's on the Suns, but that is what he could expect on any team. It wouldn't matter. He would join the Suns in order to get a chance to play the Spurs. The rest is just preseason.

Agree. That's part of the reason I'd like to move Marion. With one incumbent gone, FAs may take their chances to come here to fight for playing time. And we will be able to carry a really deep team into playoffs.

 

[Joe Mama]

This is why I suspect that Marshall will end up in Miami.

Finley is facing surgery on his ankle, so it is not clear what kind of player he will be next season. Best guess is that his minutes drop where ever he goes.

GP should be able to get 20 minutes on the Suns. In this case, he would have no illusions about replacing Nash. It all depends on how much he wants it.

Mutombo might have a bunch of DNP's on the Suns, but that is what he could expect on any team. It wouldn't matter. He would join the Suns in order to get a chance to play the Spurs. The rest is just preseason.

Gary Payton has no illusions about replacing Nash.. He wants to get all of the minutes backing him up and a bunch of minutes playing alongside him. I think they would have a really hard time convincing to drop his minutes to 25 per game, and there isn't a chance he's going to agree to around 20 per game. He played 33 minutes per game for Boston last season.

I kind of doubt Mutombo is going to leave Houston.

Michael Finley averaged 36 minutes per game for Dallas this season even though they were deep with swingmen. he's going to expect 30 wherever he goes.

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

The difference is that Finley, if he joins the Suns, would play at the min. salary while Marion at the max. So, the correct question is, would Finley + 12 mil cap space better or worse than Marion, when you compare them at the current stage of process.

it's not about money - it's about having one more guy on your team that bottom line - feels like he has anoose around his neck at the first sign of a close game. We've already got one of those, we just got rid of another - we don't need to replace him with the same. At least Shawn stepped up in the Dallas series - Finely has NEVER done that in the playoffs.