Fitz' speed

[Cbus cardsfan]

Alot of people are thinkingwe should take Fitz at #3.I wonder how that'll change if/when he runs a 4.5+ forty.I'm not questioning his talent at the college level but you don't find many WR's running above the 4.4's that are top 10 picks..Roy Williams is bigger,faster,and was also very productive in college and, i think, was the#1 rated overall prospect starting this year.A freshman QB and emphasis on the running is what hurt Williams this year not an all of a sudden drop in talent.Fitz had trouble against the better teams he played that had speed at the CB position.But,i'll give him that he was double and triple teamed. I just think that if we do go WR then Williams is a better choice for us.However,we should draft the guy who could cover them both, Sean Taylor.

 

[JeffGollin]

Roy Williams is bigger,faster,and was also very productive in college
We won't know about the speed comparisons until all the players have been timed - either at the Combine or in private workouts or Pro Days.

Until then, I don't think you can conclusively say that Williams is or isn't faster than Fitz.

With regard to productivity, this term invariably is measured by stats (catches, yards, TD's etc.) but can be influenced by (a) who the QB throwing to the WR is, (b) what kind of protection his blockers give him, (c) who his opponents are and (d) whether the WR is or isn't the only passing option the QB can throw to.

Then there are the intangibles (including the eye-ball test - how do the 2 guys look in game situations? Do they both separate well? Are they equally consistent at catching everything thrown at them? How do they compare going up for jump balls? How about avoiding the jam?)

And then there are the really really intangible things like - Which guy's had the more sophisticated coaching or played more in a pro passing attack? Which guy has the most upside? And which guy is the most coachable?

These intangibles can represent trade offs - The receiver who's played in the most sophisticated passing attack can probably come in and help your team more right away. But a more raw receiver with a huge upside and great coachability may have far more room to improve and excel.

I watched a lot of Williams this year (because I really like Young's potential as a QB and caught a lot of Texas games). Williams certainly has made some impressive plays, but there have been times when he hasn't looked so dominant also.

I haven't seen practically any Pitt games, so it will be tough to get a handle on Fitzgerald until ESPN and NFLNW start running highlight footage before the draft.

My point - We'd be well-advised to take a look at roughly 10 of the top WR prospects and start drawing comparisons (including their forty-times). I'll bet there will be some guys out there who will surprise us all. (For example - take a closer look at the WR from Western Michigan who had a strong showing in the Gridiron Bowl - he's not even listed on the early War Room list of wideouts).

Note - For what it's worth, just now I checked the War Room Nov. 20 numbers for Fitz and Roy Williams. It showed Fitz at 6-3 218 timed at 4.42 and Roy Williams at 6-2¾ 208 timed at 4.50. Seems to me that this would make Fitzgerald both bigger and faster than Williams. But like I said earlier, let's wait for later, more precise numbers to come in

 

[HookemCards]

Williams is closer to 6'4. I actually think he'll struggle early, but will be a great wideout in about 3 yrs. His struggles this year are due to various things: piss poor play calling (lots of bubble screens and 1yd outs to him), a rookie QB that struggled with consistency, an emphasis on the running game with Benson and Young, and other weapons for Young to throw to (Sloan Thomas, 2nd day pick, BJ Johnson 2nd or 3rd round pick, and David Thomas, and pretty good tight end). As far as speed goes I can't really say if he is faster or slower than Fitz, but if reports are that Fitz's speed isn't that good I would guess Williams is faster because he is pretty fast, faster than he actually looks because of his size and the length of his strides. I wouldn't argue if we took him at 3, but at this point I would prefer one of the QBs because we have struggled with that position for almost 20 yrs now, its time to end the revolving door there.

 

[vikesfan]

Speed doesn't matter at the WR position. The ability to get open does. Some of the best WRs in the NFL were not speed guys. Cris Carter Rice Meyshawn etc etc etc.

The ability to catch the ball and get open is what counts.

Don't believe me look at Boldin he is the classic example! The unemployment line is filled with fast guys and the NFL Pro Bowl is filled with slow guys.

From what I have read Williams has too many questions around his play. Fitz has none of them. This kid is better then Rogers.

And as for his speed I did some research on the net he has clocked out at 4.5 and 4.42 what was Boldin 4.7?

Wait 3 years for Williams to be great? That is ludicrous. The NFL is a win now league. Your #1 pick needs to be a starter and producing unless he is a QB.

This team finished last in the NFL for a reason. Everyone on the team will be good in 3 years - what happens when they all still suck in 3 years? You have 1 high quality NFL player on this team. That is pathetic. Time has come for a QUALITY players to be added in the draft and FA. Enough with overachievers and projects.

 

[JeffGollin]

Speed doesn't matter at the WR position. The ability to get open does....what was Boldin 4.7?
Vike - The above may be an oversimplification.

Boldin was still in the latter stages of rehabbing his knee. He timed faster in private workouts after the Combine (I think in the 4.6 range) and the "wing, hope and prayer" was that he'd probably pick up even a little more speed by the time camp started.

While you're right about things like separation, beating the jam, route running, hands etc., I do believe there is a speed threshhold slower than which a receiver must be either considered a "possession" (rather than #1) receiver and a threshhold even slower where he just isn't going to function in the NFL.

Same is true at CB - I think you saw this happen with Renaldo Hill - great intangibles, but when you're a step slow, your window for error suddenly becomes quite tiny.

I also thing it works the opposite way - Ricky Proehl was considered a "possession" wideout (i.e. great hands, great routes but a bit slow). He turned out to be pretty good. (One indicator not noticed by many prior to the draft was his forty time of 4.4).

Moral of Story - If you see a tremendous "possession" type achieve a surprising time of, say, under 4.53, jump on that puppy.

 

[kerouac9]

The speed issue is less about ability than it is about value. If you're drafting a WR in the Top 5, he better have game-breaking speed. Anquan had a great individual year, that's true. But which games did Anquan's efforts help us win? His big receiving days were all in games that ended with Big Red in the "L" column.

On the other hand, Randy Moss's big days fundementally change the outcome of the game, because there's really nothing that you can do to stop him. Look at this season's games versus GB, SF, DEN, SEA, KC. When Randy's having a charactaristic great day, you have to design your defense totally to contain him. Remember: the Vikes were without their two other weapons, Bennett and Culpepper, for long stretches of the season.

Steve Smith's explosion late in the season opened up the entire offense for the Panthers in a way that not-so-fleet-footed Mushun Muhammed never did nor could.

I just think that if you're going to invest such a high pick in a player, and such an amount of money, that better be a player that has no physical weaknesses. Route-running can be taught, hands can be taught (technique-wise), play recognition can be taught. Speed and size cannot be taught.

In the later rounds, the comparitive risk of using a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a player that can catch the ball but can't get behind the safties is much lower.

Drafting Fitz makes sense for the Raiders, because they already have a wideout with game-breaking physical tools in Porter. They could then have a 1-2 WR matchup with both a big-play WR and a possession, YAC WR.

The Cards lack that big-play WR right now. I believe that Bryant Johnson can fill this role as he develops. I do not believe that it's a good idea to invest so much money on a bunch of very young players at one position where it's very hard to distribute the ball so that each player can be used to their potential. It makes more sense from a value point of view, considering what the Cards already possess, to spend the #3 overall on a safety (Shaun Taylor), who can impact every defensive play, than on another wide reciever.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
The speed issue is less about ability than it is about value. If you're drafting a WR in the Top 5, he better have game-breaking speed. Anquan had a great individual year, that's true. But which games did Anquan's efforts help us win? His big receiving days were all in games that ended with Big Red in the "L" column.

On the other hand, Randy Moss's big days fundementally change the outcome of the game, because there's really nothing that you can do to stop him. Look at this season's games versus GB, SF, DEN, SEA, KC. When Randy's having a charactaristic great day, you have to design your defense totally to contain him. Remember: the Vikes were without their two other weapons, Bennett and Culpepper, for long stretches of the season.

Steve Smith's explosion late in the season opened up the entire offense for the Panthers in a way that not-so-fleet-footed Mushun Muhammed never did nor could.

I just think that if you're going to invest such a high pick in a player, and such an amount of money, that better be a player that has no physical weaknesses. Route-running can be taught, hands can be taught (technique-wise), play recognition can be taught. Speed and size cannot be taught.

In the later rounds, the comparitive risk of using a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a player that can catch the ball but can't get behind the safties is much lower.

Drafting Fitz makes sense for the Raiders, because they already have a wideout with game-breaking physical tools in Porter. They could then have a 1-2 WR matchup with both a big-play WR and a possession, YAC WR.

The Cards lack that big-play WR right now. I believe that Bryant Johnson can fill this role as he develops. I do not believe that it's a good idea to invest so much money on a bunch of very young players at one position where it's very hard to distribute the ball so that each player can be used to their potential. It makes more sense from a value point of view, considering what the Cards already possess, to spend the #3 overall on a safety (Shaun Taylor), who can impact every defensive play, than on another wide reciever.

Your kinda contradicting yourself here K9. I understand what you are saying about Fitz and speed and Quan. I agree witht hat assesment. But you must apply to your theory of drafting Taylor, a safety, that early too.

It is widely beleived in the NFL that you never draft a safety that high. A good safety can be made and at very little risk money wise if you take him in rnd 3-4. It is essecially what your saying about Fitz. Hey he might be a great player but his weakness may be (not sure yet) his lack of speed. Hey Taylor is a great player, but why take a risk on a safety that high? He isnt a n 'impact' player if he plays safety!

 

[SECTION 11]

I'd rather have Winslow Jr than Fitzgerald. Call me crazy.

 

[Skkorpion]

If we draft FitzGerald at #3, I'm going to be the lead critic at the news conference on draft day.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Your kinda contradicting yourself here K9. I understand what you are saying about Fitz and speed and Quan. I agree witht hat assesment. But you must apply to your theory of drafting Taylor, a safety, that early too.

It is widely beleived in the NFL that you never draft a safety that high. A good safety can be made and at very little risk money wise if you take him in rnd 3-4. It is essecially what your saying about Fitz. Hey he might be a great player but his weakness may be (not sure yet) his lack of speed. Hey Taylor is a great player, but why take a risk on a safety that high? He isnt a n 'impact' player if he plays safety!

Why? I safety is involved in every defensive play, run or pass. What's the first player that a QB looks for when he gets to the line? The safety. Brian Dawkins is the cornerstone of the Philly defensive scheme. John Lynch is one of the three core players on Tampa's D (with Sapp and Brooks). Ed Reed is a sparkplug on both Baltimore's Defensive and Special teams. Rodney Harrison probably should have been a candidate for Defensive Player of the Year.

I was one of the first to say that safety isn't an impact position last season, but Dexter Jackson changed my mind. I think that Shaun Taylor can be a special player for the Cards not only for his estimable physical attributes, but also for the attitude and leadership that he can bring to a defense desperately in need of an identity.

I agree with you that a good safety can be made, but a GREAT safety, in the mold of Williams, Lott, Dawkins, etc., has to be drafted.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Why? I safety is involved in every defensive play, run or pass. What's the first player that a QB looks for when he gets to the line? The safety. Brian Dawkins is the cornerstone of the Philly defensive scheme. John Lynch is one of the three core players on Tampa's D (with Sapp and Brooks). Ed Reed is a sparkplug on both Baltimore's Defensive and Special teams. Rodney Harrison probably should have been a candidate for Defensive Player of the Year.

And none of those players mentioned above where drafted in the top three. Heck, Dawkins, Lynch, and Harrison were all drafted AFTER the first round.

Drafting Taylor #3 would be a monumental mistake with a QB on the board, a RB on the board, A DE on the board, or even a WR on the board.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
And none of those players mentioned above where drafted in the top three. Heck, Dawkins, Lynch, and Harrison were all drafted AFTER the first round.

Drafting Taylor #3 would be a monumental mistake with a QB on the board, a RB on the board, A DE on the board, or even a WR on the board.

Even if each of those were a lesser-rated player? Remember: Green says that he drafts "best player available". Kiper presently lists Taylor as the #2 player in the draft behind Fitzgerald (whom I expect to fall after he runs the 40).

What is our defense sorely lacking? I don't really think that it's talent. I think that we have the talent on D to be competitive. I think that this defense lacks playmakers. That's what Shaun Taylor is. He will be the catalyst for the defense. With a pass-wacky division like us, a nickle package featuring FA DE-Bell-Bryant-Pace, Fisher-Thompson, Starks-Wilson-Jackson-Taylor-FA CB would be extremely competitive. If we want a QB, then we should take him if he's there; I agree. I'm not totally sure that I want a QB that isn't named "Eli Manning", but whatever. Personally, I feel that Taylor has more value than any other player besides Manning. If we want to trade down, then the target should be Jackson or Williams, but I don't think we should.

Honestly, I don't see another rookie DE as being the answer for this team. I don't think that Udeze or Smith are Freeney/Peppers-type talents, and we already have a handful of developmental players on the defensive line.

 

[vikesfan]

If you are talking value. I would not be looking at taking a WR early round 1. Like I said WRs tend to bust out - they are almost as hard to predict as QBs.

Of course there is a speed threshold but Fitz is well within that threshold. But look at a guy like Cris Carter. He was not a speed guy. All he did was catch TDs so Buddy cut him. Speed for a WR is overrated. Look at the New England WRs.

Comparing any WR to Moss is a mistake. Moss is a 1 of a kind unique talent. There is no WR close to Moss in the NFL he is on a pace to bet all of Rice's records.
Williams is not Moss. Rogers is not Moss. Moss comes along once in a generation. And speed is part of it with Moss but not all. He is often doubled and tripled down field when he makes his catches. The key to Moss is the ability to make those catches. Two years ago they made him a possession WR and he did the same damage he always does.

I think Fitz might be a great pass catcher. He was trained by Moss and Carter. Like I said I am wary about drafting WRs in the draft but this kid is worth a shot. He is as safe a pick at WR as there is.

As for having too many WRs. I am not sold on Johnson what if he never pans out. You take BPA if Fitz is BPA you take him. Like I said before you don't let the BPA drop. The NFL is a filled with 3 and 4 and even 5 WR sets now. Look at New England.

The thing to consider is if Johnson is as good as you say. He will be singled covered. Cause Boldin and Fitz will be doubled. That will make it easier for Johnson to get open.

Moving the ball down the field on 5-7 yard passes is as good as doing with a 75 yard pass. It eats up more clock and New England just showed it can be done.

As for Boldin not winning games if he had 4.3 speed you still wouldn't have won any more games. You have nothing at QB a mediocre RB and OL and a terrible defense. Your offense and defense are last in the nfl. Boldin's stats are even more amazing. But if you want to win in the nfl you need more BPAs on your team.

Skkorpion I would give DG the benefit of the doubt on his draft picks. Look at his record in Minnesota. I remember people being all over him for the Culpepper pick and for the Kleinsasser pick. He knows more then you or me. He is human he could make a mistake but I doubt he would ever do anything as bad or silly as pass on Suggs/Leftwich/Gross/Trufant to take Johnson and Pace. He will make the right moves they might not all work out but they will at least make sense. He will watch films on the players he knows talent he will breakdown the players for hours like he did with Culpepper. And then he will make the right pick as he usually did or at least the pick that makes the most sense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Even if each of those were a lesser-rated player? Remember: Green says that he drafts "best player available". Kiper presently lists Taylor as the #2 player in the draft behind Fitzgerald (whom I expect to fall after he runs the 40).

What is our defense sorely lacking? I don't really think that it's talent. I think that we have the talent on D to be competitive. I think that this defense lacks playmakers. That's what Shaun Taylor is. He will be the catalyst for the defense. With a pass-wacky division like us, a nickle package featuring FA DE-Bell-Bryant-Pace, Fisher-Thompson, Starks-Wilson-Jackson-Taylor-FA CB would be extremely competitive. If we want a QB, then we should take him if he's there; I agree. I'm not totally sure that I want a QB that isn't named "Eli Manning", but whatever. Personally, I feel that Taylor has more value than any other player besides Manning. If we want to trade down, then the target should be Jackson or Williams, but I don't think we should.

Honestly, I don't see another rookie DE as being the answer for this team. I don't think that Udeze or Smith are Freeney/Peppers-type talents, and we already have a handful of developmental players on the defensive line.

Who the heck cares what Kiper thinks? Nice appeal to authority.

A defensive catalyst? How bout' a huge waste of an enormous contract on a position that doesn't have the impact of a DE, a DT, a CB, or even an LB. It isn't even debateable; great safeties can be had after round 1. If you want a safety so badly why not wait to draft Jason Shivers from ASU, who IMO, will be a pretty good NFL safety???

And I disagree on Udeze and Smith. Both will be good pass rushers in the NFL (Udeze could be great; did you see him absolutely destroy Auburn's vaunted offensive line?). I've watched them both in college (it helps to actually watch college football when you judge prospects) and both would help this football team tremendously. I'm still not sold on our talent upfront; and the dline has more impact defensively than LBs, or CBs, or Safeties...

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Why? I safety is involved in every defensive play, run or pass. What's the first player that a QB looks for when he gets to the line? The safety. Brian Dawkins is the cornerstone of the Philly defensive scheme. John Lynch is one of the three core players on Tampa's D (with Sapp and Brooks). Ed Reed is a sparkplug on both Baltimore's Defensive and Special teams. Rodney Harrison probably should have been a candidate for Defensive Player of the Year.

I was one of the first to say that safety isn't an impact position last season, but Dexter Jackson changed my mind. I think that Shaun Taylor can be a special player for the Cards not only for his estimable physical attributes, but also for the attitude and leadership that he can bring to a defense desperately in need of an identity.

I agree with you that a good safety can be made, but a GREAT safety, in the mold of Williams, Lott, Dawkins, etc., has to be drafted.

Roy Williams of the cowboys changed mind on what a safety could do if properly utilzed. Unfortunatly we dont have the luxury of taking a roy williams type at #12. We would have to draft this safety at #3 and that is too high.

It is about risk/reward. I think Taylor will be great but he doesnt immediatly change the defense his first year, and call me crazy, but he is no Roy Williams. (at least not yet)

I like Taylor and would draft him at #10 or later but not @ #3-It is just too high to pay a safety. Especially when the drop-off between Taylor and guys like Stuart Schweigert, Jamaal Brimmer, and Brandon Everage arent worth paying the extra millions for Taylor.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
If we draft FitzGerald at #3, I'm going to be the lead critic at the news conference on draft day.

Not to worry. We're drafting Roy Williams. It just makes too much sense to me. If he runs at least 4.5 at the workouts it's a done deal. And even at that, Roy just starts "picking up" speed 40 yards down the road. He and Boldin will create some incredibly tough matchups for defenses, and immediately give this team a "Green" identity.

How can Coach Green turn his back on this "brillian talent" as Kipers calls him. Roy's physique is almost a mirror image of Moss. And I would venture to say that if Roy had played at Marshall University his stats would have as spectacular as Randy's. Roy's long-legged stride is not fooling Coach Green.

And I don't buy that because we have last year's number one and two draft picks at the postition that we can't invest this year's number one. That would fly in the face of Coach Green's edict that we will take the best player available.

With the third pick in the 2004 draft the Arizona Cardinals select, from the University of Texas, wide reciever, Roy Williams...

And the crowd on Mill Ave goes wild!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by red desert


And the crowd on Mill Ave goes wild!

Not the Cards fan in Vegas!

Bad move! Not physical enough. Dont want a WR that early, but if they do take one, I like Fitz.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Bad move! Not physical enough.

Not all wide receivers can rip helmets of the heads of University of Miami defensive backs.

I wouldn't mind Fitz, but prefer Williams.

 

[JeffGollin]

How can Coach Green turn his back on this "brilliant talent"
It's easy. You cross your legs, pivot and then turn until your back is facing the brilliant talent.

There's no reason why Williams won't turn out to be good - but 40% of the draft is a giant crap shoot where, each year you'll see more than a few pheenoms fall on their faces. For that reason, your guess is as good as mine - but no better or no worse.

There are others on this board (including me) who see more brilliant talent in one or more other players besides Williams.

So you may see Roy Williams as a slam dunk (and I respect that). But others may see things differently (and I hope you'll respect that too).

 

[vikesfan]

best PLAYER available: is Fitz

best PHYSICAL STATS, POTENTIAL etc: is Williams

You already drafted Williams - last year - B Johnson.

you take BPA this year

you need to take college producers not college potenial

enough of guys like Pace etc


Get PLAYERS in here. Get first day STARTERs in here. Start moving deadwood out and start filling positions out with quality players and then move onto another position.


I think unless you take a QB (it should be a year before he plays)
you want to have one of the best players at their position in the NFL.

I think Fitz or Taylor or Gallery all fit that mode. Udeze is close to there but not quite - take a guy #3 who will give you the least bust potential. A guy who fills a position on your team or 10 years and has a chance to be a pro-bowl or at least pro-bowl type.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
So you may see Roy Williams as a slam dunk (and I respect that). But others may see things differently (and I hope you'll respect that too).[/COLOR]

Did something in my post indicate otherwise?

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by vikesfan
You already drafted Williams - last year - B Johnson.

Not even close. I don't think B. Johnson is even remotely close to Williams in talent. As a matter of fact, I think B. Johnson will end up being an average reciever at best. Didn't like the pick then, and I still don't like it.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by red desert
Not even close. I don't think B. Johnson is even remotely close to Williams in talent. As a matter of fact, I think B. Johnson will end up being an average reciever at best. Didn't like the pick then, and I still don't like it.

What makes you think Johnson wont be any good? I am very curious, b/c outside of playing next to the ROY, he looked right in tow for what soemone would expect from a rookie WR.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
What makes you think Johnson wont be any good? I am very curious, b/c outside of playing next to the ROY, he looked right in tow for what soemone would expect from a rookie WR.

My recollection of the season (and I did see every game although a bit intoxicated at times) is that he dropped way too many balls. Maybe he'll improve, maybe he won't. And I rarely, if ever, saw him seperate from the defender with anything close to "top end" speed. Granted, he wasn't thrown the ball much downfield. Maybe that wasn't his fault.

Anyhow, bottom line is that I am in no way comfortable with him as our deep threat hope.

 

[kerouac9]

So, the argument for Fitzgerald is, at least as I see it, essentially:

I like Fitzgerald. He's good. So what if he's like Anquan? Two Anquans have to be better than one. You don't need a fleet wideout, you just need two guys that can catch the ball real good.

I guess, man. I'd like to see some evidence of that. When I think of that scenario, I think of the Raiders withouth Porter and the Bills when Moulds had the groin injury. Neither team was able to do anything offensively last season.

I find the arguments against Taylor even less compelling. They seem to be:

1. I don't want a safety, even if Taylor is head and sholders above the rest of the defensive players in the draft. Safeties are a dime a dozen, you can get them later (even if it isn't the best safety/DB in the draft). Every other position on the field has more of an impact on a defense than safety.

2. Taking a Safety with the #3 overall selection is unprecedented, and is a waste of money.

To that, I respond that the best player in the draft is the best player in the draft. You need to get playmakers on the field, and if Taylor is a legitimate playmaker (as no one seems to dispute), then there's no reason not to take him.

As for the place of selection, I just don't understand it. When was the last time that a right guard was selected #2 overall? If a player can potentially be the best player in the league at his position (as Taylor projects), it would be a VALUE selection.

Drafting to save money is stupid. That's what's gotten us to where we are today. Get playmakers, and everything's going to be better.

Oh, yeah, and Bryant Johnson's going to be good. Real good.