Fixing our O-Line

[NEZCardsfan]

I dunno about that. The Vikings are the only team he has been a HC of so he has nothing but that on his resume if he wants another HC job. He's going to have to work his way back up to that. He's probably more likely to recieve a position coach/assistant head coach position (like Vitt with the Rams) than a coordinator position.

OK, I'll admit it......I'm sick of ex-Vikings.

People revere that '98 team like they won the Super Bowl or something.

 

[HookemCards]

My biggest fear is that Green gets jumpy, cuts Davis, and the 9ers snap him up. They put him at RT, and he whoops our butts twice a year for 7 years.

I'm not sure if you'd necessarily need to move him to Guard. He could play RT with a little help with his footwork. But there is the problem, who is going to help him with his footwork?? Our OLine coaching has been abyssmal.

Draft D'Brickshaw Ferguson, move Davis to RT, move Brown to LG, Ross to RG.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Davis is a tackle, but he's too big and slow to play LT against the speed rushers, he gets off balance trying to lunge instead of moving his feet. At RT he doesn't have to worry about the speed guys so much. Ross is even slower afoot, he would make a decent guard opposite Brown at the other guard. Draft Ferguson or get the best FA LT (Runyan) and you have the makings of a good OL and all we would have to worry about is coaching.

While I was at it, I'd move Dockett to LDE, Okeafor to OLB opposite Dansby, and find two big, fat athletic DT and let Hayes and Mitchell fight it out at MLB.

Then I'd draft Michael Huff in the 3rd round and plug him in with Wilson at safety.

 

[AntSports Steve]

To get Big to redo his deal, the Cards would have to overpay him and extend his deal for at least 3 years. Big might take the stance, Pay me my $8M or cut me. If the team does what they always do, and cut him before June 1st, he'll still find teams out there that will pay him reasonable market value.

What is Big's market value? What position is he best suited for?

 

[NEZCardsfan]

I think if he hits FA, he'll go as a LT. Not for what he is making here, but somebody will take a shot at him as a LT. Somebody is going to figure they can teach him technique.

 

[Pariah]

I think if he hits FA, he'll go as a LT. Not for what he is making here, but somebody will take a shot at him as a LT. Somebody is going to figure they can teach him technique.

Somebody won't have to "take a shot," he's a decent LT--just not elite.

 

[jefftheshark]

What is Big's market value?

If he continues to get 2 or 3 false start penalties per game and gets our QB killed, I’d place his value at the equivalent of a greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ashtray.

The Shark

 

[Assface]

Letting Big go would be a stupid move. He's not elite, like jones and Pace but he's better than a lot of other LTs. IMO I see no reason to get rid of him unless he's the 32nd best LT in the league. Money isn't an issue since we're well below the cap. We can't keep getting rid of players when we don't have anyone to replace them. If we dumped Davis and drafted Ferguson with a high pick then we're treading water.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Somebody won't have to "take a shot," he's a decent LT--just not elite.

With proper coaching he's got every physical talent in the world to be elite. I sure hope we don't release the guy.

 

[Russ Smith]

Come on we wouldn't cut Big, that would be crazy to cut a starting T without a viable replacement in place.

I figure AntSteve is right but I think the Cards would worry more about his cap value than actual money paid out so if they can lower his capvalue by extending him, they probably will.

I think other teams see enough of us to know that Big is overpaid so I don't see anybody trading for him without asking him to take a paycut, and on the open market I doubt anybody pays him what his current contract calls for.

We'll see.

 

[Wild Card]

Come on we wouldn't cut Big, that would be crazy to cut a starting T without a viable replacement in place.

Russ:

And this team never cuts veteran OL starters without viable replacements, right?

WC

 

[JasonKGME]

My 2 cents, draft Ferguson and Nick Mangold.

Start Big at LT, Ross at LG, Mangold at C, Brown at RG and Ferguson at RT. Give Ferguson a year at RT unless he just comes in right away and makes it obvious he can play LT in which case you switch him and Big.

If we can't get Ferguson draft McNeil or Max Jean Gilles. If it's McNeil, he plays RT, Big LT, Ross LG. If it's Gilles, he plays LG, Big LT, Ross RT.

To be honest I am not sure you can win starting 2 rookies and a 2nd year player on the OL so we should probably sign one in FA.

No, no, no and no. If you draft Ferguson, and trust me I am pulling for him to be a Cardinal, you draft him and IMMEDIATLY install him at LT. I think thats part of the reason Big is struggling, because he keeps being moved around, If we had put him immediatly at left tackle and he had 5 years of playing LT now, I think he would be a DOMINANT LT instead of the average LT he currently is. Also moving Big to guard in my estimate is a mistake as well, Big is just that BIG, he is too big to be a pulling guard which is constantly required to be a good G, move Big to RT where he goes from being Average to above average. He doesnt need to jump the snap as often because he isn't protecting the blind side any more and he can use his strength to push DE's around.

Draft Ferguson for LT, Move big to RT, leave Brown and Step in thier current positions, and grab a QUALITY FA Gaurd (Steve Hutchinson, throw money at him). Giving you LT-Ferguson, LG-Hutchinson(or quality FA), C-Stepanovich, RG-Brown, RT-Davis

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ:

And this team never cuts veteran OL starters without viable replacements, right?

WC

Never, we would not do that.

 

[az240zz]

everyone is talking about the players while the real [roblem is a lack of coaching. These guys would have been adequete if they had good coaching.

Is it possible that the coach was hired because that's all that management would pay??

az240z

 

[AZCB34]

everyone is talking about the players while the real [roblem is a lack of coaching. These guys would have been adequete if they had good coaching.

Is it possible that the coach was hired because that's all that management would pay??

az240z

Lindsay was hired because Green and Wylie coudln't get along and Wylie was more experienced as OL coach AND certainly better at this (and that) juncture. Had nothing to do with the amount the team would pay.

Russ, if the OL list that NEZ posted is correct, and I think it is, it appears as though Tice was blessed with some damn good players who were likely Pro Bowl caliber anyways so I wonder if we automatically make the same jump you did about Tice really being that good of an OL coach. I am not saying Tice was bad or even average, I just wonder how good he REALLY was given he was working with some high quality players and here his best player is the inconsistent, false-starting, fire lacking LT that goes by the name of Big.

 

[Redsz]

BIG and Brown are our only decent linemen. But they still fit the MO of what I hate when it comes to Cardinal linemen. Big guys with potential (because of their size) but have no drive and constantly under achieve. I don't know how long it is going to take the Cardinals FO to figure out that size doesn't equal being good in the NFL.

The Cardinals are going to have to attempt to restructure BIG's deal. But then if you cut/trade him you are stuck in a situation where you have to bring in someone else at LT (which is going to be difficult) or draft someone like Ferguson in the draft.

 

[Russ Smith]

Draft Ferguson for LT, Move big to RT, leave Brown and Step in thier current positions, and grab a QUALITY FA Gaurd (Steve Hutchinson, throw money at him). Giving you LT-Ferguson, LG-Hutchinson(or quality FA), C-Stepanovich, RG-Brown, RT-Davis

I think Big is struggling because he's not all that self motivated. Ogden started at guard his rookie year because they had a LT, didn't stop him from being a perennial all pro.

I just haven't seen enough of Ferguson to know if he's ready to start at LT.
to be honest I've seen very little of him at all.

Also Big at RT scares the hell out of me, seems like half the teams in the NFL now have a speed rusher playing on that side of the ball, Big got completely used by Leonard Little the last time he faced him at RT.

 

[joeshmo]

it appears as though Tice was blessed with some damn good players who were likely Pro Bowl caliber anyways so I wonder if we automatically make the same jump you did about Tice really being that good of an OL coach.

I thought Russ already answered that pretty well, but I will expand on it.

Stuessie first rounder yes, but he was in the league for 4 years before he made the Jump to probowler the same year Tice became OL coach by the way. Cioncedence?

Birk made his first probowl under Tice as a center.

Stringer again first rounder yes 5 years later reached pro bowl status under Tice.

Now were some of the OL good already when he got there yes, but he also raised the game of a few and kept them good under his wing. From 97 to 2001. No matter how good they were in the first place you have to give coaching some credit for the amount of pro bowlers he help send to Hawaii. Plus even when he was a Te coach he still helped coach the OT's as well, so even before he was the official OL coach he was still apart of helping mold them into probowlers.

I would really like to see what he can do with 3 pretty high picks in Davis, Step and Brown, they need what talent they already have taken to the next level and Tice has proven he can do that.

 

[Reddog]

No, no, no and no. Also moving Big to guard in my estimate is a mistake as well, Big is just that BIG, he is too big to be a pulling guard which is constantly required to be a good G, move Big to RT where he goes from being Average to above average.

Why don't any of you see Big as the next Larry Allen. He is huge and strong but does not have the quicks to be an OT. He would be a killer in tighter space.

 

[BigDavis75]

If we followed the Dallas example, they had weaker tackles and very solid interior linemen. As I said in the off season when USA Today ranked linemen and LD was way down the list, he is an underachiever at LT. He was totally moved by a rookie DE. He still jumps offsides too much as if he were still a rookie. Shift him to left guard and overpay for the most dominant LT available. If we don’t have anyone that will be rock solid at the other Guard go get one of those too. Fill in with the best available at RT. In other words build a solid left side and interior and give our RBs a chance.

First off I could make better lists than USA today.

Secondly, what game were you watching? Big dominated Ware except for 2 plays and Ware's stats are 2 Tackles and 0 of everything else.

 

[BigDavis75]

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Davis is a tackle, but he's too big and slow to play LT against the speed rushers, he gets off balance trying to lunge instead of moving his feet. At RT he doesn't have to worry about the speed guys so much. Ross is even slower afoot, he would make a decent guard opposite Brown at the other guard. Draft Ferguson or get the best FA LT (Runyan) and you have the makings of a good OL and all we would have to worry about is coaching.

While I was at it, I'd move Dockett to LDE, Okeafor to OLB opposite Dansby, and find two big, fat athletic DT and let Hayes and Mitchell fight it out at MLB.

Then I'd draft Michael Huff in the 3rd round and plug him in with Wilson at safety.

I would love Runyan, but as a RT. The position he has been playing for years. He is even slower than Big IMO.

 

[jefftheshark]

I guess I must have missed our dominating rushing attack when Big did play guard.

The Shark

 

[Reddog]

First off I could make better lists than USA today.

Secondly, what game were you watching? Big dominated Ware except for 2 plays and Ware's stats are 2 Tackles and 0 of everything else.

Given your handle I guess I shouldn't expect objectiveness but a guy his size with his years in the league shouldn't be twitching and jumping off sides against a 250lb rookie like Ware that he outweighs by 120lbs.

And yes I did see Ware bull rush him four times one of which led to a int TD (which game were you watching?).

 

[JasonKGME]

I think Big is struggling because he's not all that self motivated. Ogden started at guard his rookie year because they had a LT, didn't stop him from being a perennial all pro.

I just haven't seen enough of Ferguson to know if he's ready to start at LT.
to be honest I've seen very little of him at all.

Also Big at RT scares the hell out of me, seems like half the teams in the NFL now have a speed rusher playing on that side of the ball, Big got completely used by Leonard Little the last time he faced him at RT.

Yes and Ogden played 1 year at Gaurd. Big's 1st year was Gaurd, 2nd RT, 3rd back to gaurd, then finally to LT.

And each position is a whole different mental aspect and footwork learning. So basically he had to learn 3 positions, and I think that put him way behind on the learning curve, and it may be too late to fix it. I think your better off bringing in a LT and starting them there from the git go.

 

[JasonKGME]

Why don't any of you see Big as the next Larry Allen. He is huge and strong but does not have the quicks to be an OT. He would be a killer in tighter space.

I guess my opinion is based on the run game more then anything, as a pass blocking gaurd I think he would be one of the best because of his size. Unfortuanatly he just does not have the speed to pull and block for the run game. Gaurds are constantly required to pull from thier spots and roll over to block on the other side of the line and I don't think Davis has the speed necissary to do that. His speed is also part of the reason he is having problems at LT. Since he doesnt have enough speed he is trying to anticipate the snap of the ball and is getting the false starting penalties to try to beat the speed rushers he has to face. Moving to RT will bring him up against more of the "power" rushers as opposed to the speed rushers, and with his size and strength he would KILL the power rushing ends.

 

[BigDavis75]

Given your handle I guess I shouldn't expect objectiveness but a guy his size with his years in the league shouldn't be twitching and jumping off sides against a 250lb rookie like Ware that he outweighs by 120lbs.

And yes I did see Ware bull rush him four times one of which led to a int TD (which game were you watching?).

Sorry about that, it was a jerk thing to say.

Anyway, I just get angry when people call out Big, he is having an excellent season and really did dominate Ware, who is probably the second best defensive rook, and is a real speed-rusher. Pewople say Big struggles with speed-rushers, not the case. Can someone find his stats for me?