Fixing our O-Line

[BigDavis75]

Also that TD was as a result of Henry finally getting smart. Boldin ran that out route incorrectly at least twice before and when Josh felt pressure he almost constantly dumped off there. He got an intentional grounding remember? Henry realized this and went to the right spot and got a TD. Not Big's fault.

 

[Duckjake]

I guess I must have missed our dominating rushing attack when Big did play guard.

The Shark

On the other hand Shipp and TJones combined for 1,345 yards and the team 4.4 ypc the year BIG played Right Tackle, 2002. Cards gained most yards rushing in a season since 1990.

Unfortunately the D gave up over 4000 yards and 29 TD's passing and the Cards finished their usual 5-11.

 

[john h]

There probably isn't much we can do this year except to ride herd on the guys we've got and try to develop and motivate them.

Next year is a different story. I'm in favor of employing a very wide broom - starting at the top of the unit - spare no expense to bring in the very best offensive line coach we can get.

The O-line coach should have the authority on all personnel decisions pertaining to his unit. And management should support him and be willing to pay top dollar to implement whatever moves the new coach wants to make.

If it were me, I'd (a) lay out job profiles for each position (including regular roster and training camp backups) that would comprise my "perfect" offensive line. (b) do an exhaustive review of the guys we've got to determine whether or not anyone can either fill a position right now or if anyone can be coached-up within 3 - 4 months so that he'd be ready to fill a slot, (c) I'd lay out a strategy for bringing in the guys we need to fill empty positions and (d) depending on how successful we were adding those guys via free agency, trades or the draft, jettison the guys who aren't going to work out.

If I could at least see directional progress among the linemen we currently have, I might be more inclined to opt for stability and keep the unit intact to give them a chance to jell. But there's a point in time when you have to admit that "it just isn't working out", bite the bullet and move onward.

Jeff: at the U. of Arkansas the Line Coach is one of the top ten paid public employees in the state. Our Head Coach makes about a Mil a year.

 

[john h]

The Cards might have to start from scratch on the O-Line. I think Big's contract calls for an $8 million base salary next year. Well, that's just not going to happen as his play is way to poor for that kind of money. So, he gets cut.

Ross is under contract, but he sucks as a RT. Maybe he can play RG? Or is he also overpaid and you just cut him and consider the signing bonus a stupidity penalty that the Cards just pay and get rid of him and continue.

So, no OT possibly of starter level on the roster next year.

Guards, Wells under performs, easily replaced?

Rookie Guard, improving, does he start again next year? Or make him the 1st backup and hope to give him another year to improve?

So, no OG of starting quality on the roster next year.

Center? The Cards have 2 full years of training in Stef, should we write this year off to injury and make him the starter next year?

Basicly, the Cards have almost nothing to build on for the OL next year. How did this ever get so bad?

Oh please! Not cutting another first round pick? Is this to be our life forever. This would remind me of cutting our first round lineman pick many years ago named Dave Buttz(?). He went to Washington and became an All Pro and haunted us for years. He is he best lineman we have with the best future. Put some good players beside him and he will look a lot better.

 

[john h]

Oh Jeez, he did the same thing with the defense and you aren't complaining about that.

I guess that he should have just left that dominating offensive line alone. I know that he wasn't successful but it's not for lack of effort.

No effort at all is sometime better than ill conceived effort

 

[john h]

My biggest fear is that Green gets jumpy, cuts Davis, and the 9ers snap him up. They put him at RT, and he whoops our butts twice a year for 7 years.

I'm not sure if you'd necessarily need to move him to Guard. He could play RT with a little help with his footwork. But there is the problem, who is going to help him with his footwork?? Our OLine coaching has been abyssmal.

Draft D'Brickshaw Ferguson, move Davis to RT, move Brown to LG, Ross to RG.

Cutting Big would rank right up there with Bobby Moore or Dave Butz. I hope no one is even thinking about this.

 

[john h]

I honestly don't think Tice would accept a job as an OLine coach. If he gets fired he probably just takes the year off.

In '98 they had a heck of Oline....and Green deserves some credit for it.

McDaniel (already there)
Steussie (acquired in the 1st....in a pick that came from Den for Zimmerman)
Stringer (1st Round Pick)
Christy (pickup in '93)
Birk (6th round pick)

The problem is I don't see a quality OLineman on this team like McDaniel. I also don't see a piece like Zimmerman that he can trade to get more draft picks.
He tried with Shelton and Clement, but because of their contracts nobody offered anything.

A big queston to ponder is what coaches would work for Green? He does not seem to be a guy coaches would rush to work for. More than likely run away from. His history of firing coaches and players and tinkering must scare the devil out of some coaches. There may be a good reason we have these inexperienced coaches?

 

[earthsci]

No effort at all is sometime better than ill conceived effort

BS John. If Denny hadn't done anything to try to improve the offensive line the outcry would have been even greater than it is now.

 

[joeshmo]

On the other hand Shipp and TJones combined for 1,345 yards and the team 4.4 ypc the year BIG played Right Tackle, 2002. Cards gained most yards rushing in a season since 1990.

Unfortunately the D gave up over 4000 yards and 29 TD's passing and the Cards finished their usual 5-11.

Well then again T Jones had an average of 3.7, Shipp had an average of 4.4.

Now a comparison of YPC according to where they ran the ball.

TJ -

Left side - 4.4 YPC, 1 TD
Middle - 3.8 YPC, 1 TD
Right Side - 3.5 YPC, 0 TD

Shipp -

Left side - 6.5 YPC, 2 TD
Middle - 1.8 YPC, 1 TD
Right Side - 3.9 YPC, 1 TD

So most of the high YPC and most of the TD's came from running to the Left side not to Davis Right side.

And 2002 was one of his worst years as an OL. 4 Penalties and 7.5 sacks allowed. He had a pretty bad 2004 season as well at LT. This year he has only been accredited for .5 sacks allowed but 9 penalties. If we can just get him to cut down on Penalties I see no reason to move him from LT if we put someone better then Wells next to him.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Anyway, I just get angry when people call out Big, he is having an excellent season and really did dominate Ware, who is probably the second best defensive rook, and is a real speed-rusher. Pewople say Big struggles with speed-rushers, not the case. Can someone find his stats for me?

This is just a joke, I am shocked that your fingers could actually type this. However, seeing your name, it is obvious that you are completely neutral on the topic. Bottom line? LD is a bust, and a waste of a number two pick. When he got run over by Ware, a rookie weighing more than 100 pounds less than him, that int was 95% the fault of Leonard. He is not a good LT, he makes horrendous drive killing mistakes every game, and makes far more money than he deserves. He could be an above average guard, but if you think he is a top tier tackle, clearly we have nothing to discuss.

 

[Russ Smith]

TJ -

Left side - 4.4 YPC, 1 TD
Middle - 3.8 YPC, 1 TD
Right Side - 3.5 YPC, 0 TD

Shipp -

Left side - 6.5 YPC, 2 TD
Middle - 1.8 YPC, 1 TD
Right Side - 3.9 YPC, 1 TD

Will you quit bringing up how good LJ Shelton and Pete Kendall were Joe, get over it!




I'd forgotten how many sacks Big gave up that year, he's improved but I still think he's more comfortable on the left side than the right side, that was one of the primary reasons Green gave when he moved him to LG, he said he is more comfortable on the left side.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Yes and Ogden played 1 year at Gaurd. Big's 1st year was Gaurd, 2nd RT, 3rd back to gaurd, then finally to LT.

And each position is a whole different mental aspect and footwork learning. So basically he had to learn 3 positions, and I think that put him way behind on the learning curve, and it may be too late to fix it. I think your better off bringing in a LT and starting them there from the git go.

So you are saying he is too stupid to learn more than one position.

I agree.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Fix the online?

Get the cheerleaders to play RG, C, LG, and RT.

They can do a better job.

Anyone else tired of watching Brown, Step, and Wells getting blown out of there boots, and falling all over the field?

And Ross is comming back this week ? Oh man..... He is the biggest flopper of them all.

 

[BigDavis75]

This is just a joke, I am shocked that your fingers could actually type this. However, seeing your name, it is obvious that you are completely neutral on the topic. Bottom line? LD is a bust, and a waste of a number two pick. When he got run over by Ware, a rookie weighing more than 100 pounds less than him, that int was 95% the fault of Leonard. He is not a good LT, he makes horrendous drive killing mistakes every game, and makes far more money than he deserves. He could be an above average guard, but if you think he is a top tier tackle, clearly we have nothing to discuss.

LD is a bust! This is a joke, I am shocked that you're fingers could actually type this. Let's take a walk through previous Cardinal first rounders shall we?

LJ Shelton
Davis Boston
Thomas Jones
Knight
Andre Wadsworth
Wendell Bryant
Calvin Pace
Bryant Johnson
Garrison Hearst

Those guys have been busts for us. LD hasn't! He is at least a top 10 LT, the hardest O-Line position to play, and he is our best O-Lineman.

Just to further prove you wrong here are some #2 overalls, something you specifically cited in your response:

Gallery
Rick Mirer
Kevin Hardy
Ryan Leaf
Manderich
Blair Thomas
Darrel Russel


Those are just some recent ones.

Also, LD has allowed .5 sacks this season, that's it!

But anyway you're right he got run over by Ware (2 tackles, even though he only deserved 1), a bust, and we DO have nothing to discuss.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

LD is a bust! This is a joke, I am shocked that you're fingers could actually type this. Let's take a walk through previous Cardinal first rounders shall we?

LJ Shelton
Davis Boston
Thomas Jones
Knight
Andre Wadsworth
Wendell Bryant
Calvin Pace
Bryant Johnson
Garrison Hearst

Those guys have been busts for us. LD hasn't! He is at least a top 10 LT, the hardest O-Line position to play, and he is our best O-Lineman.

Just to further prove you wrong here are some #2 overalls, something you specifically cited in your response:

Gallery
Rick Mirer
Kevin Hardy
Ryan Leaf
Manderich
Blair Thomas
Darrel Russel


Those are just some recent ones.

Also, LD has allowed .5 sacks this season, that's it!

But anyway you're right he got run over by Ware (2 tackles, even though he only deserved 1), a bust, and we DO have nothing to discuss.

Big played pretty well against DAL. He's even run blocking better.

He's not great but he's pretty good. Its just the expectations surrounding him are so high because of his draft position and salary.

 

[BigDavis75]

Big played pretty well against DAL. He's even run blocking better.

He's not great but he's pretty good. Its just the expectations surrounding him are so high because of his draft position and salary.

I was just arguing against the claim that he was a "bust".

 

[Reddog]

Sorry about that, it was a jerk thing to say.

Anyway, I just get angry when people call out Big, he is having an excellent season and really did dominate Ware, who is probably the second best defensive rook, and is a real speed-rusher. Pewople say Big struggles with speed-rushers, not the case. Can someone find his stats for me?

No worries Big. I like LD I just don't see him as an elite LT. I think he could be but I don't know if he has the heart to do what it takes. On that INT, I do think Ware was more the cause than anyone else. In fact I really thought it should have been called back because he took a swipe at Josh's head.

 

[Duckjake]

Well then again T Jones had an average of 3.7, Shipp had an average of 4.4.

Well, I think most of us would give just about anything for those kind of numbers this season.

As for your stats you have to remember that when it comes to the Cardinals stats don't mean anything, history and tradition are far more important.

The Cards could run the ball when Ernie McMillan, Dan Dierdorf, Tootie Robbins and Leonard Davis played Right Tackle. They couldn't when Joe Wolf, James Dexter, Rob Selby, Rick Cunningham, and Anthony Clement played the position.

So to fix the running game the Cards just need a stud right tackle.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I was just arguing against the claim that he was a "bust".

He is a number two overall pick. The bust label is appropriate, because a #2 pick is expected to be almost a surefire pro-bowler, not an average tackle who should be playing guard who makes constant mistakes that kill the team.

 

[BigDavis75]

He is a number two overall pick. The bust label is appropriate, because a #2 pick is expected to be almost a surefire pro-bowler, not an average tackle who should be playing guard who makes constant mistakes that kill the team.

He should go to the Pro Bowl this year, based on stats (if he cleans up his penalties a bit), but alas, it is a tenure contest. NFC tackles will be Jones, Pace, and Tra Thomas. My votes would be for Tait, Davis, and Jones though.

 

[joeshmo]

He should go to the Pro Bowl this year, based on stats (if he cleans up his penalties a bit),

Those are pass blocking stats.

How well has he done run blocking. The only thing I will say about it is, it is not pro bowl worthy.

 

[BigDavis75]

Those are pass blocking stats.

How well has he done run blocking. The only thing I will say about it is, it is not pro bowl worthy.

He has been our best run-blocker if that's what you mean, the only key run block he missed was in the SF game where he had to make a nearly impossible block on Travis Hall, which resulted in a 9er TD. BTW where do you find O-Line stats.

 

[joeshmo]

He has been our best run-blocker if that's what you mean, the only key run block he missed was in the SF game where he had to make a nearly impossible block on Travis Hall, which resulted in a 9er TD. BTW where do you find O-Line stats.

Best run blocker on the team isnt saying much. But no taht wasnt what I was talking about. I was talking about probowl worthy run blocking of which there is no arguement you can possibly make for that.

As for the stats.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp

Just find the individual players. You can also find in the RB stats where they get their yards(left side, right side, turf, grass, quarter, when behind or ahead, inside the 20's, ect.) A lot of QB stuff to and it is also where you can find WR drops. They are the official stats tracker of the NFL and what ABC, FOX, and CBS use for their stats graphics.

 

[BigDavis75]

Thanks for the link!

Pace has allowed 5.5 sacks
Walter Jones has allowed 0
Tra has allowed 2

Davis has played better than two Pro Bowl picks in the NFC at LT. I can't just say he's played better because people naturally think I'm biased, so I guess I need some semblance of support.

 

[Duckjake]

Thanks for the link!

Pace has allowed 5.5 sacks
Walter Jones has allowed 0
Tra has allowed 2

Davis has played better than two Pro Bowl picks in the NFC at LT. I can't just say he's played better because people naturally think I'm biased, so I guess I need some semblance of support.

Looking at those stats and comparing BIG's to Roaf's,Tait's, and Pace Leonard doesn't look bad at all. In fact he has similar stats on penalties and sacks allowed as everyone of them and not just this season. And he's changed positions almost every year.

That would indicate that the Penalty knock is overblown and that BIG is a premier pass blocker. On the other hand the RB stats tend to indicate that LD is not very effective as a run blocker.