Fixing the OL Woes

[Pariah]

How can we fix the line for next year? Well, my plan involves moving a tackle to guard, but it’s not the expected switch. And, I don’t think we should expect our line woes to be solved in the draft. We need to be aggressive in free agency – despite how poor the draft class is; we need to go after the cream of the crop and not stop after signing one key player.

Here’s how I’d go about it:

Left Tackle: L. Davis – re-sign Big. This FA class really benefits Davis; in year’s past he should be allowed to walk, but we don’t have a viable replacement for him on the horizon. Even if we draft J. Thomas, he won’t play as well as Big is for at least a season.

Left Guard: D. Lutui – He needs to step up his game and become a force here, particularly in the run game.

Center: D. Datish (rookie) – We need to either spend a second round pick or move up from our second round to the end of the first to get him or whoever distinguishes themselves at the position come the end of the college season.

Right Guard: O. Ross – I think Ross is a guard playing tackle. He can’t handle speed rushers off the edge, but he’s a decent straight line blocker. I’m betting he could move people off the ball in the run game.

Right Tackle: M. Starks – We need to float the idea out there that we would pay this guy a TON of money to come here so he doesn’t re-sign with Pittsburgh before we can get our mitts on him.


I’d also go after Porkchop Womack like crazy, seriously explore trade possibilities for starting RTs and Cs and draft a tackle in the first round (looks like there will be around 3 tackles that go in the top 15)…hopefully the 2007 first-rounder will be a backup for a year.

 

[Shane]

Left Tackle: L. Davis – re-sign Big. This FA class really benefits Davis; in year’s past he should be allowed to walk, but we don’t have a viable replacement for him on the horizon. Even if we draft J. Thomas, he won’t play as well as Big is for at least a season.

It would be worth going after the rookie and letting him start right away even though he may have growing pains in his first year. That way we dont have to worry about watching Bigs overrated play for the next 5 years at an astronomical pay scale he clearly doesnt deserve.

That would make me

 

[Pariah]

It would be worth going after the rookie and letting him start right away even though he may have growing pains in his first year. That way we dont have to worry about watching Bigs overrated play for the next 5 years at an astronomical pay scale he clearly doesnt deserve.

That would make me

Why are you worried about the money? It's not going to hurt us anywhere else.

 

[conraddobler]

You franchise Big and let the new guy do with him what they want, Guard, Tackle, Fullback.

The pool of talent is too poor to cut guys like Big just loose but you don't want to lock him up long term either, franchise him, hold your nose, don't think about the unfairness of the money and just do it.


We may need two tackles, that's it, go with lecky, fire Ross demote Big to guard.

That would be a nice core of a line, too bad Tackles are hard to find.

 

[football karma]

My whack at it:

round 1: Sam Baker, LT USC or Jake Long, LT Mich -- both are juniors who are likely to come out

Round 2: Chris Denman, RT Fresno St -- three year starter at right tackle. Smart overachiever schooled in a pro style attack

Round 3: LeRoy harris, C NC State -- three (and maybe four) year starter at center. Smart, team leader

of course, I know the pitfals of starting a bunch of rookies -- although the Jets seem to be faring okay with two rookie starters and Anthony Clement at RT --

 

[joeshmo]

We need to get the idea of Starks out of our head.

Starks is a RFA and will get the mid or most likely high tender.

Which means we either have to give up a 1st(mid tender) or most likely a 1st and 3rd round pick(high tender) and a huge contract Pitt wont match.

Odds of happening 1%.

Also floating the idea that we will pay him huge money before FA starts is blatant tampering violations and we will get caught. We would have to do something much more sneaky then that.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

How can we fix the line for next year? Well, my plan involves moving a tackle to guard, but it’s not the expected switch. And, I don’t think we should expect our line woes to be solved in the draft. We need to be aggressive in free agency – despite how poor the draft class is; we need to go after the cream of the crop and not stop after signing one key player.

Here’s how I’d go about it:

Left Tackle: L. Davis – re-sign Big. This FA class really benefits Davis; in year’s past he should be allowed to walk, but we don’t have a viable replacement for him on the horizon. Even if we draft J. Thomas, he won’t play as well as Big is for at least a season.

Left Guard: D. Lutui – He needs to step up his game and become a force here, particularly in the run game.

Center: D. Datish (rookie) – We need to either spend a second round pick or move up from our second round to the end of the first to get him or whoever distinguishes themselves at the position come the end of the college season.

Right Guard: O. Ross – I think Ross is a guard playing tackle. He can’t handle speed rushers off the edge, but he’s a decent straight line blocker. I’m betting he could move people off the ball in the run game.

Right Tackle: M. Starks – We need to float the idea out there that we would pay this guy a TON of money to come here so he doesn’t re-sign with Pittsburgh before we can get our mitts on him.


I’d also go after Porkchop Womack like crazy, seriously explore trade possibilities for starting RTs and Cs and draft a tackle in the first round (looks like there will be around 3 tackles that go in the top 15)…hopefully the 2007 first-rounder will be a backup for a year.

I like the plan except for Datish. I know OSU had put out some good C's lately in Bentley, Mangold, and StepanovichD ) but he's probably not in Benley or Mangold's class. This is his first year starting at C.He's not someone who could come in start right away.He may be a good pro down the road but too upgrade that position we need to do something that will have an effect next year.

 

[Shane]

Why are you worried about the money? It's not going to hurt us anywhere else.

So says you. Just because we have 40 million in cap space available next year doesnt mean that at some point in time paying BIG 10+ million a year isnt going to affect the cap in the future. Also someone just shouldnt be paid what they arent worth EVER!

 

[JeffGollin]

On face value - I'd come in with a big broom.

New line coach. All new players (sparing no expense). Clean slate.

I'd be looking for guys who can (a) consistently move opponents off the ball, (b) can hold their blocks for at least 2 seconds longer than the play calls for (both on running and passing plays) and (c) never blow assignments.

And I wouldn't stop adding guys like that until I was 2 deep at every position.

I realise it's unrealistic to purge everybody, but if I could get away with it, that's what I'd do. (When you want to get rid of the stench of disease, sometimes you have to send the sick guys out of Dodge and burn all the blankets).

 

[BigDavis75]

So says you. Just because we have 40 million in cap space available next year doesnt mean that at some point in time paying BIG 10+ million a year isnt going to affect the cap in the future. Also someone just shouldnt be paid what they arent worth EVER!

Who is that in your avatar?

 

[conraddobler]

On face value - I'd come in with a big broom.

New line coach. All new players (sparing no expense). Clean slate.

I'd be looking for guys who can (a) consistently move opponents off the ball, (b) can hold their blocks for at least 2 seconds longer than the play calls for (both on running and passing plays) and (c) never blow assignments.

And I wouldn't stop adding guys like that until I was 2 deep at every position.

I realise it's unrealistic to purge everybody, but if I could get away with it, that's what I'd do. (When you want to get rid of the stench of disease, sometimes you have to send the sick guys out of Dodge and burn all the blankets).

You stated that pretty well.

I think part of this just goes to either the players heart or ability, tough to say which it is.

You almost don't want the next guy to fall into the same trap and try and save these guys, it may be time for a clean slate like you said but the downside is you do realize how long that will take don't you?

That's the incredibly tempting part of trying to save some pieces, if you burn this down, it's 3 years at best until you have a good Oline, that's about my most optimistic scenario for burning it down and starting over, that's a long time to waste Leinart and Boldin and Fitz et al.

 

[JC_AZ]

Who is that in your avatar?

looks like Mike Singletary to me...Our Next DC

 

[earthsci]

What about Mike Gandy?

 

[Russ Smith]

What about Mike Gandy?

Nah pacifists just don't work well as offensive linemen.

You need someone with more of a meanstreak.

 

[Shane]

Who is that in your avatar?

It is Mike Singletary

 

[BACH]

First, we need to be more specific. It's important to remember that we have a left-handed QB (the only one in the league?), so we need a LT to play RT and CANNOT use a classic RT like Starks to anything. He would be just as exposed as Ross is right now. He doesn't have the feet to play the blindside either.

It comes down to matching the right player with the right position. Green has been terrible at that.
So what are our options right now:

LT (or frontside): Big, Ross, Elton.
I, personally, believe that this is the Big's natural position. Big did fine against DEs, but was exposed when teams like the Falcons used LB Boley as a DE. Teams won't be able to do this with Leinart starting and therfore a TE lining up next to Big. Has anyone notice how much better Big has looked since Leinart has started. Ross could be moved to LT, too, but he's not an improvement over Big.

LG: Milford, Lutui, Step
This becomes the position where the team's biggest mauler should play. Milford and Lutui should battle it out here.

C: LEckey, WellsLeckey is though and smart, but also undersized. I believe Wells fits two positions in this scheme - C and RT. He might be too short to play OT, and C is probably his best position in this scheme.

RG: Ross, Lutui, Milford, Elton
Ross can't play the blindside OT and need to be moved inside. Milford is better suited at the frontside G position. This is perhaps Lutui and Elton's most natural position.

RT: Wells
We only have one player on this team with the feet to play the blindside tackle and that's Wells. Ross is a disaster as the blindside, Big is the 2nd best option (enough said).

Short-term line-up:
Big, Lutui/Milford, Lecky, Ross, Wells

Long-term line-up:
Big, Milford/Ross, Wells, Lutui, Gandy/Rookie

 

[AZ Shocker]

I'm just sitting here thinking what a shame it was for the organization NOT to address the offensive line these three years under Green. With all the skilled talent we have at the skill positions...it seems like such a waste.

 

[Pariah]

First, we need to be more specific. It's important to remember that we have a left-handed QB (the only one in the league?), so we need a LT to play RT

Teams aren't switching their RDE to the LDE just for one game. Typically, the best pass rusher will be blocked (or, in our case "unblocked") by the LG.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm just sitting here thinking what a shame it was for the organization NOT to address the offensive line these three years under Green. With all the skilled talent we have at the skill positions...it seems like such a waste.

They've tried to address the OL it just hasn't worked out. They brought in Brown and Ross.They have drafted Step,Leckey, Lutui, and Brown. They matched Wells' contract. It's not for lack of trying it's lack, i don't know what it is. Look at the DL and they've hit on almost all of their acquisitions. Berry, Clancy, and Okeafor all have been good to above average. The draftees Watson, Lewis, Dockett all look promising. It's kind of ironic that Green is an offensive minded coach and has had better luck addressing the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Russ Smith]

Teams aren't switching their RDE to the LDE just for one game. Typically, the best pass rusher will be blocked (or, in our case "unblocked") by the LG.

That's what I want to ask Bach too. are teams really flip flopping? and if not, are you saying we line the TE up on the opposite side now because Matt is a lefty?

If we do, can't we just line the TE up on Ross's side so he has help and Big goes back to blocking without help since he's clearly better at it than Ross is, and that way the "solo" tackle is not on Matt's blindside?

Sorry not an OL expert here I'm just having a hard time getting why Matt being left handed makes such a big deal to the OL?

 

[AZ Shocker]

They've tried to address the OL it just hasn't worked out. They brought in Brown and Ross.They have drafted Step,Leckey, Lutui, and Brown. They matched Wells' contract. It's not for lack of trying it's lack, i don't know what it is. Look at the DL and they've hit on almost all of their acquisitions. Berry, Clancy, and Okeafor all have been good to above average. The draftees Watson, Lewis, Dockett all look promising. It's kind of ironic that Green is an offensive minded coach and has had better luck addressing the defensive side of the ball.

Gawd...no kidding, and I agree they have "tried". Just didn't get the "right" talent. Brown? Ross? Step? YUCK!

Maybe just bad talent "assesments"? Or Denny's offensive philosophy? It is maddening...

I just think the league is no longer suited for HUGE lumbering linemen. The game has been all about speed the last 10 years. Even at the "big dog" positions in the trenches. Why oh why can't Denny see that adaption in the last 7-8 years.

Having Big at guard, with smaller athletic (fast) linemen would be a great improvement and something the Cardinals should make a move to for next season.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

That's what I want to ask Bach too. are teams really flip flopping? and if not, are you saying we line the TE up on the opposite side now because Matt is a lefty?

If we do, can't we just line the TE up on Ross's side so he has help and Big goes back to blocking without help since he's clearly better at it than Ross is, and that way the "solo" tackle is not on Matt's blindside?

Sorry not an OL expert here I'm just having a hard time getting why Matt being left handed makes such a big deal to the OL?

Because the rotation of the ball is different.

 

[Pariah]

Oh, and the other thing I forgot to add is stealing ATL's consultant: Alex Gibbs. Throw a TON of money at this guy with one directive: fix our OL.

 

[JeffGollin]

[QUOTES=AZ Shocker;1135871 and Pariah]Gawd...no kidding, and I agree they have "tried". Just didn't get the "right" talent. Brown? Ross? Step? YUCK!...Alex Gibbs. Throw a TON of money at this guy with one directive: fix our OL...[/QUOTE]
Sometimes incremental solutions simply aren't enough to turn around the big boat in the water.

It's a tough thing to accept seriousness of the situation and call for wholesale change, but how much worse can our O-line get than when we gain fewer than 70 ground yards per game? Better to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.

 

[Pariah]

how much worse can our O-line get than when we gain fewer than 70 ground yards per game?

Jeff, as a long-time Cards fan you should know better than to ask this question.

(The answer is "70 yards.")