Fixing the OL Woes

[BACH]

That's what I want to ask Bach too. are teams really flip flopping? and if not, are you saying we line the TE up on the opposite side now because Matt is a lefty?

If we do, can't we just line the TE up on Ross's side so he has help and Big goes back to blocking without help since he's clearly better at it than Ross is, and that way the "solo" tackle is not on Matt's blindside??

Few teams shift their best pass-rushing DE, so he comes from the blindside, but not many.

Yes, the TE has shifted side since Leinart took over. The TE works as the dump-off in this system and has to be on Leinart's frontside because of it.
The TE usually goes into a pattern on passing downs, so it's not like he stays and helps Big with the block. The only way to beat Big is by pure speed on the outside. With the TE lining up next to him the DE now has to go through a TE to beat Big outside. Sure the TE leaves on passing downs, but the traffic and the possibility that the TE will downblock the DE makes him lose half a second or so. That's all it takes for Big to get total control.

Sorry not an OL expert here I'm just having a hard time getting why Matt being left handed makes such a big deal to the OL?

It's a huge deal! There's much more pressure playing the blindside, because if you fail then the QB gets killed. The blindside tackle is totally isolated and the only way to help him is by keeping more players in pass-protection(which very few teams do). The Blindside DE will attack the outside on 98% of all plays and there's no one to help the OT out there. The RB can only pick up inside, which means that the RBs can't help the blindside OT through the usually pass-block schemes or play-actions. That's why I want Wells to play RT, because he's the player least likely to get beat on the outside. He probably needs more help than Big protecting the inside move, but the RB's first read in pass-protection is usaully the blindside G-T gap.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's a huge deal! There's much more pressure playing the blindside, because if you fail then the QB gets killed. The blindside tackle is totally isolated and the only way to help him is by keeping more players in pass-protection(which very few teams do). The Blindside DE will attack the outside on 98% of all plays and there's no one to help the OT out there. The RB can only pick up inside, which means that the RBs can't help the blindside OT through the usually pass-block schemes or play-actions. That's why I want Wells to play RT, because he's the player least likely to get beat on the outside. He probably needs more help than Big protecting the inside move, but the RB's first read in pass-protection is usaully the blindside G-T gap.

thanks that's what I was asking, why don't we simply shift the TE to Ross's side to help. But your explanation answers that since obviously Matt as a lefty is naturally going to see the middle to left side and if the TE is on his right, hes' in his blindspot.

So far as little as we use the TE, you could argue he's useless anyways but that's a good point.

I noticed Edge several times just go 3-4 yards out and stop and Matt only threw to him once, one of them being the first pass of the game which was too hot and bounced right off his hands. I assume that's the design but I don't like it, Edge is doing NOTHING after he catches those balls. 5.7 YPC that's just not enough to justify that, either keep him into block, or put him in the pattern where he can actually catch the ball with room to run.

I guess some of this is also Matt as a young QB is still not seeing the whole field so they're trying to put guys in places that Matt sees, which limits our play selection, makes us easier to defend, and tougher on the OL to block?

 

[overseascardfan]

My whack at it:

round 1: Sam Baker, LT USC or Jake Long, LT Mich -- both are juniors who are likely to come out

Round 2: Chris Denman, RT Fresno St -- three year starter at right tackle. Smart overachiever schooled in a pro style attack

Round 3: LeRoy harris, C NC State -- three (and maybe four) year starter at center. Smart, team leader

of course, I know the pitfals of starting a bunch of rookies -- although the Jets seem to be faring okay with two rookie starters and Anthony Clement at RT --

I like Round 1, I would go after Doug Free out of Northern Illinois in Round 2 and Ryan Kahlil in Round 3.

 

[Russ Smith]

I like Round 1, I would go after Doug Free out of Northern Illinois in Round 2 and Ryan Kahlil in Round 3.

Kalil is REALLY small though, he's listed at 285 and I don't even think he's that big. He's a very good college C but I gotta wonder if he's goig to be big enough in the NFL?

Strange, that OL last year was one of the best OL's I've seen in college ever, and yet so far Matua doesn't play, Justice doesn't play(usually isn't even active), Lutui barely plays and was inactive several games. Kalil may not be big enough, Baker appears to be a high first round pick.

I'm wondering if instead of saying hire Pete Carroll, we should be saying hire Pat Ruel?

PAT RUEL
Offensive Line
Pat Ruel, who has 32 years of college and NFL coaching experience, is in his second year at USC. He joined the Trojan staff in February of 2005 and works with the offensive line.

In 2005, offensive guard Taitusi Lutui and offensive tackle Sam Baker were All-American first teamers and they joined center Ryan Kalil on the All-Pac-10 first team.

USC played in the 2006 Rose Bowl (BCS Championship Game).

Ruel, 55, spent the 2004 season as an offensive line assistant with the New York Giants.

He worked on the college level for the first 26 years of his career before moving to the NFL for the next 5 years. His coaching career began in 1973 as a graduate assistant at Miami, his alma mater. He was promoted to a fulltime assistant handling the offensive line for the Hurricanes for the following 3 years (1974-76).

He next was the assistant offensive line coach at Arkansas in 1977 (USC head coach Pete Carroll was a member of that Razorbacks' staff and the team played in the 1978 Orange Bowl).

He then spent 4 years (1978-81) at Washington State, the first 2 seasons as the offensive line coach before adding offensive coordinator duties for his final two seasons. The 1981 Cougars played in the Holiday Bowl.

He was the offensive coordinator and offensive line coach at Texas A&M for the next 3 years (1982-84), then had similar duties (along with being the assistant head coach) at Northern Illinois for 3 seasons (1985-87).

He spent the next 9 years (1988-96) at Kansas, the first 3 as the offensive coordinator and offensive line coach, then adding assistant head coach to his title the final 6 years. The Jayhawks played in the 1992 and 1995 Aloha Bowls.

After spending 1997 in private business, he then was at Michigan State for 2 years (1998-99), the first year as the offensive line coach and then adding assistant head coach duties in the second season. The Spartans played in the 2000 Florida Citrus Bowl.

He moved to the NFL in 2000 as the offensive line coach with the Detroit Lions, then spent the next 2 seasons (2001-02) as the assistant offensive line coach for the Green Bay Packers. The Packers were in the NFC playoffs both seasons. He was the offensive line coach with the Buffalo Bills in 2003 before going to the Giants.

He lettered at offensive guard for Miami in 1971 and 1972. He received his bachelor's degree in psychology from Miami in 1972.

He prepped at Coral Gables (Fla.) High, where he starred in football.

He was born on Dec. 5, 1950. He and his wife, Marti, have a daughter, Sabra, 19, currently a student at USC. His full name is Golden Pat Ruel.


RUEL SNAPSHOT
BIRTHDAY: Dec. 5, 1950
FAMILY: Wife, Marti; Daughter, Sabra, 19
HIGH SCHOOL: Coral Gables (Fla.) HS
EDUCATION: Bachelor's degree, psychology, Miami, 1972
PLAYING EXPERIENCE: Coral Gables (Fla.) HS
Miami, offensive guard, 1971-72
COACHING EXPERIENCE: 32 years

YEAR TEAM POSITION BOWL
2005 USC Offensive Line Rose
2004 New York Giants Offensive Line Asst. --
2003 Buffalo Bills Offensive Line --
2002 Green Bay Packers Asst. Offensive Line NFC playoffs
2001 Green Bay Packers Asst. Offensive Line NFC playoffs
2000 Detroit Lions Offensive Line --

 

[BACH]

Gawd...no kidding, and I agree they have "tried". Just didn't get the "right" talent. Brown? Ross? Step? YUCK!

Maybe just bad talent "assesments"? Or Denny's offensive philosophy? It is maddening...

I just think the league is no longer suited for HUGE lumbering linemen. The game has been all about speed the last 10 years. Even at the "big dog" positions in the trenches. Why oh why can't Denny see that adaption in the last 7-8 years.

Having Big at guard, with smaller athletic (fast) linemen would be a great improvement and something the Cardinals should make a move to for next season.

An even bigger problem than getting the scheme up to par is Green's arrogant approach that an O-Lineman is an universal position and that you can put any player at any position.

When Green first got here, he stated that there where two positions where they felt Big would excel - RT or LG. They moved him to LG, because Big was more comfortable on the left side. Then LJ goes into the doghouse and Big get put at LT. Three months earlier he listed two positions where Big would excel - LT wasn't one of them...

Ross was a borderline G/RT, that Green felt could play RT for us eventhough most other teams had doubts about his pass-protection. He struggles as the frontsode OT, but Green naturally assumes that he can play the blindside...

 

[joeshmo]

In no particular order:

1. We have way to much cap space. Some would say to much knowing the upcoming FA class will be the worst ever. Which leads me to this. Keep everyone we have for next year. No that doesnt mean they wont be cut later or even keep their starting jobs either. Franchise Davis, yes I know how can you pay a guy like him 11 Mill. Easy, we will still have over 35 Mill in cap space and in such a crappy year in FA he can easily be traded, when teams actually have cap space to take him instead of the trying what we did 2 weeks ago when no one had that space.

2. Everyone that we have right now will know from the beginning you are not a starter, the postition you play now may not be the position you are at in training camp, the guy sitting next to you could easily take your spot, the guy we bring in via trade, FA, or Draft could easily take your spot. No whining or egos will be tolerated in this process.

3. "Hit the gym Fatty" - In Two cases it means to get stronger and add some muscle weight and that is for Leckey(295 to 300 range) and Gorin (310 to 315 range). Both could use the extra muscle but not to much to sacrfice speed or agility. Wells needs to get back below 310, the extra 10 lbs of weight he added ove the last year or so is very noticable, and Davis needs to lose even more then he already has over the last 2 years, 5-10 more lbs. As for these guys Elton Brown (340 Lbs), Lutui (340 Lbs.), and Milford Brown (330 lbs.), all of you need to lose 10 or more. As for Ross I think he is fine at 327 if he were to play OG, but maybe in the 315-320 range would be best if staying at OT. Big Fatties is no longer the trend in todays NFL. Teams are no longer getting the big fat DT to stop the run, schemes are no longer called for smash mouth straight up blocking.

4. "Cakewalks are for Church fundraisers" - No more cakewalk practices, training camps or preseason. We cannot be afraid of injuries, you do that and your players will never be prepared. It is the risk you take for winning attitude and ability. We have had semi to very much so cakewalk type offseasons for far to long. If I dont hear players complaining you arent doing your job IMO. Our guys are way to soft mentally and physicaly.

5. "Trades never Happen" - The offseason market is going to be so full of cash with no one to spend it one we are going to see a big spike in trades, more then normal IMO. And normal is much higher then people give trades credit for in the first place. Teams wont be able to upgrade very much via FA, or spend their cap money, so trades just may very well be the only way to upgrade your team. Franchising Davis who in such a bad market will actually be one of the most saught after FA's is the only way to go. Even if that means trading for a draft pick to use on OL, or for players at other postions even for depth which would make it easier to pick nothing but OL in the draft. Or he is kept and moved to Gaurd by a new coaching staff. Either way we get something to help this OL more so then if we dont franchise him. Besides possibility of trading Davis there will be other opportunities for trades, not for world beaters but better then we have right now. Other then that happening besides a Davis trade the odds of a good trade is slim to none, but this may be the year to be able to work something out more so then any other year.

6. "Ok I got a lot of money to spend and only a tootsie roll to spend it on". I am not putting to much stock in the FA market helping fix the OL. Lots of money for all teams, very little FA OL to spend it on. What does that mean, a third of the possible FA's wont even be UFA's when FA starts being re-signed by there own teams, and 32 teams fighting it out for only a few above average OL. Honestly looking at this list with RFA's taken out of the picture, we have about 10% chacne of even getting one above average OL on this list. Doesnt mean you dont try your hardest though, just dont expect to fully rely on it.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/2007/nfl/freeagentsOL.html

7. Coaches, Scheme, Motivation - I dont really need to go further.

8. "Rookies dont start". I hate that saying. It just isnt true. OL rookies start and do well just as fast and often at a good level just as much as any other position. Other teams do it and other rookies do it with success why not us. It just so happens this will most likely be our best bet at fixing the OL. I know it will be tempting to pick another postion if another fallen player is looking right at you for great value, but we have to resist that urge and pick the best available OL instead. We can bandaid other positions at the moment with players we already have, can pick in other rounds, or pick up in FA but that is not true for the OL. At minimum we need to pick 1 in the first round and 1 in the 2nd or 3rd round, and 1 more on the 2nd day of the draft. That is just a minimum.

I dont like any of the OG in the draft what so ever so I would suggest trying to piece together our RG and LG from the peices we already have, Davis, Browns, Ross, Lutui, and so on. So I would concentrate on the OT's and OC's. And I like a few of them:

Joe Thomas, Wisconsin
Doug Free, Northern Illinois
Sam Baker, USC,
Ryan Harris, Notre Dame
Jake Long, Michigan

Centers -

Kyle Young, Fresno St.
Ryan Kalil, USC

I suggest a 1st and 2nd round combo of Thomas/Baker and Young/Kalil. I could care less if they are reaches where ever we pick.

 

[BACH]

I noticed Edge several times just go 3-4 yards out and stop and Matt only threw to him once, one of them being the first pass of the game which was too hot and bounced right off his hands. I assume that's the design but I don't like it, Edge is doing NOTHING after he catches those balls. 5.7 YPC that's just not enough to justify that, either keep him into block, or put him in the pattern where he can actually catch the ball with room to run.

I guess some of this is also Matt as a young QB is still not seeing the whole field so they're trying to put guys in places that Matt sees, which limits our play selection, makes us easier to defend, and tougher on the OL to block?

Matt's inexperience definately has something to do with that.

For us, it's hard to say if Edge is called into a pattern or he releases from his pass-protection. But in the cases where he releases that will most likely be out of Leinart's primary vision. Edge first read in pass-protection is the gap between inside of Ross next to the RG, which is to Leinart's blindside.

If nothing comes in that hole, then he releases into a pattern. Edge doesn't do anything, because he's a dump-off target. He only gets a short gain because he's got a LB playing man on him. If that LB isn't playing Edge, then he would have room to run, but when he is playing Edge, then Boldin and Fitz get more room in the intermediate routes, because the LB is keyed on Edge.

Again I'm speaking the general/default blocking scheme here.

 

[SeaChicken]

...
I’d also go after Porkchop Womack like crazy, seriously explore trade possibilities for starting RTs and Cs and draft a tackle in the first round (looks like there will be around 3 tackles that go in the top 15)…hopefully the 2007 first-rounder will be a backup for a year.

Good call on Womack. He's a very good RT and can even play LT. The Seahawks have him playing out of position at LG. The only problem with Womack is that he's injury prone. Even playing as a backup in spot duty, he's managed to average two injuries per year. Imagine if he were starting...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I posted this in the sticky article, but I will post it here too.

Seriously. At this point, I want to try and use a 6 O Lineman set. Throw in an additional lineman and leave him there the entire game. Don't even announce him as an eligible receiver.

LT: Big (since we pretty much know he wont be moved to G)
LG: Lutui
LG: Wells
C: Leckey
RG: Liewinski/Brown
RT: Gorin/Ross

 

[Pariah]

I posted this in the sticky article, but I will post it here too.

Seriously. At this point, I want to try and use a 6 O Lineman set. Throw in an additional lineman and leave him there the entire game. Don't even announce him as an eligible receiver.

LT: Big (since we pretty much know he wont be moved to G)
LG: Lutui
LG: Wells
C: Leckey
RG: Liewinski/Brown
RT: Gorin/Ross

A) Why limit yourself--and therefor limit what the defense needs to think about--by not declaring one of these guys as "eligible?"
B)We're in essence already adding a 6th lineman when we have Wakefield on the field.

 

[Russ Smith]

A) Why limit yourself--and therefor limit what the defense needs to think about--by not declaring one of these guys as "eligible?"
B)We're in essence already adding a 6th lineman when we have Wakefield on the field.

I said this a few weeks ago. At some point in the season we're going to play action and Wakefield is going to be completely uncovered on a key short yardage play. Will we throw him the ball, and will he catch it?

My guess is he would, then fall down, fumble and lose the ball.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

A) Why limit yourself--and therefor limit what the defense needs to think about--by not declaring one of these guys as "eligible?"
B)We're in essence already adding a 6th lineman when we have Wakefield on the field.

Limit ourselves?? With the way that our line blocks, there needs to be AT LEAST 6 on the line, possibly 7. If you do not want to limit ourselves, change it this way.

LT: Big (since we pretty much know he wont be moved to G)
LG: Lutui
C: Leckey
RG: Liewinski/Brown
RG/T: Gorin/Ross
RT: Wells/Wakefield

Make Wells/Wakefield eligible for EVERY play.

 

[kerouac9]

Awesome post, joe. Just great stuff.

Ross and Wells are the biggest problems on this team right now. Wells in run blocking especially and Ross in pass pro. DEs just line up so far outside Ross's shoulder that he can't get into his drop fast enough, and when he does, it opens up the hole between him and Milford Brown too easily for blitzing linebackers.

We need to get used to the fact that this team isn't throwing to the TEs. I think that if Leonard Pope was doing well in practices or on the field, we'd hear about it. Put Bergen or Wakefield in and let them chip guys; Pope isn't going to be an option in this offense this season.

 

[Pariah]

Limit ourselves??...

Make Wells/Wakefield eligible for EVERY play.

All I meant was you earlier stated that you wouldn't even have the "extra" lineman report as eligible. That limits the offense. And, if you ever DID want to run an eligible play, you'd have to report and tip your hand. That's all.

 

[john h]

You stated that pretty well.

I think part of this just goes to either the players heart or ability, tough to say which it is.

You almost don't want the next guy to fall into the same trap and try and save these guys, it may be time for a clean slate like you said but the downside is you do realize how long that will take don't you?

That's the incredibly tempting part of trying to save some pieces, if you burn this down, it's 3 years at best until you have a good Oline, that's about my most optimistic scenario for burning it down and starting over, that's a long time to waste Leinart and Boldin and Fitz et al.

Would Fitz and Boldin still be here? Good guys like this will be out of here in a flash if we are not much improved when their contract is up. Being the team we are we are a proving ground for players who move on to good teams. How do you get out of such a vicious cycle? By the time your new guys are ready to make a contribution your good older guys are ready to leave.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

All I meant was you earlier stated that you wouldn't even have the "extra" lineman report as eligible. That limits the offense. And, if you ever DID want to run an eligible play, you'd have to report and tip your hand. That's all.

I do get what you are saying. My point is that they need more protection. Maybe they make them eligible on some plays. You can still run a spread offense with an extra lineman in there, rather than a TE. Even Bergen, our best blocking TE, is worse than all of our backup linemen.

 

[Pariah]

I do get what you are saying. My point is that they need more protection. Maybe they make them eligible on some plays. You can still run a spread offense with an extra lineman in there, rather than a TE. Even Bergen, our best blocking TE, is worse than all of our backup linemen.

Yeah. Got that. But my point was that we already do it quite a bit--Wakefield is not a TE, despite his jersey number.

 

[Duckjake]

My guess is he would, then fall down, fumble and lose the ball.

Probably fall down but not lose the ball. After all if Mackovica could catch a pass and hold on to it Wakefield can.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yeah. Got that. But my point was that we already do it quite a bit--Wakefield is not a TE, despite his jersey number.

I would like to see the numbers, but I would venture to say that when Wakefield is in, 75% of the time or more, it is a run. That is part of the problem.

 

[Russ Smith]

Probably fall down but not lose the ball. After all if Mackovica could catch a pass and hold on to it Wakefield can.

Are you forgetting his momentous KO return against the Raiders?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Probably fall down but not lose the ball. After all if Mackovica could catch a pass and hold on to it Wakefield can.

A Joel Mackovica reference ,nice.

 

[Duckjake]

A Joel Mackovica reference ,nice.

I'll never forget the Detroit game where JM actually ran with the football. The defenders were so surprised he gained 22 yards. Ran with his head down and both arms wrapped around the ball the entire way. I don't think he got tackled he just fell down and a defender touched him down.

Had another 17 yard run against the Rams a week later.

I think his ypc that season was 10.8.

 

[Duckjake]

Are you forgetting his momentous KO return against the Raiders?

Wakefield or Macovica?

I didn't watch much of the Raider game it was on my TV but I didn't pay much attention after it became obvious it was Texans part two.

 

[abomb]

I'll never forget the Detroit game where JM actually ran with the football. The defenders were so surprised he gained 22 yards. Ran with his head down and both arms wrapped around the ball the entire way. I don't think he got tackled he just fell down and a defender touched him down.

Had another 17 yard run against the Rams a week later.

I think his ypc that season was 10.8.

Nice memory...well, close anyway.

Week 14 DET 2 carries, 27 yards, 3 rec 1 TD
Week 15 STL 0,0 22 yards rec

http://pro-football-reference.com/games/MakoJo00.htm#2002

 

[Russ Smith]

Wakefield or Macovica?

I didn't watch much of the Raider game it was on my TV but I didn't pay much attention after it became obvious it was Texans part two.

OH that explains it. They squibbed a KO short, Wakefield got it and started running/falling forward. Got hit, fumbled, and I think Schable recovered it. Fred was doing exactly what you described of Mackovicka, he just ran falling forward until he ran into someone and fumbled. Very lucky we recovered the ball.