FJ's Motto

[elindholm]

What makes you so sure that's who I am? What about that new guy from wherever it is.. little rock? What makes you so sure that's not him?

It's obvious that you're all the same person. (Ever heard of IP addresses?) You can deny it for as long as you want, but all it does is make you look more devious, and I don't think that's going to win you any support from anyone.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't see what the fuss is about FJ's indecision about who is going to start at center. Jahidi had a pin inserted in his finger and Williams was very well rested. He might have wanted to gauge the amount of rust...

What got to me was the apparent magic caused by his telling Marbs to pass the ball more - the number assists almost doubled the last two games. (Frank was quoted on that in some recent interview.) Does that mean he'd forgotten to spend some time with his point guard working out the approach he wanted in their half-court sets? You really do wonder. Frank phrased it so it was somewhat critical of Marbury, who when asked about Frank's comments replied, "Thats (expletive deleted)." It sure doesn't sound like the communication is what you'd expect.

Maybe this team needed a little controversy... Marbs did come out dealing the rock and it was contagious - Amare quadrupled his season total of assists in one game, for instance. And Penny played like he was part of the team - despite his recent whining to the press. Happily for us the timing was perfect as Chicago and Orlando cooperated with nice soft defenses. We even dealt with their zones. It doesn't mean the world of course, but those games should be confidence builders - and in the right direction.

I was particularly glad to see Zarko taking to the middle against the zones and being effective there. Luckily one of the reporters asked him about it and we had the quotes Z. offered about his prior experience with zones in Europe. That should raise it to a conscious level with FJ and he may further encourage it - and may, dare we hope, even put Zarko on the floor when teams start zoning us!

 

[Skkorpion]

I'm in the minority but I think Frank Johnson will be okay in the long run.

If not, Jerry Colangelo will make a change. He always does.

No worries. I actually like the makeup of this team and find them entertaining. If zones keep bogging them down, I may change my mind. We'll see.

Giving Googs any playing time at all is really the only thing FJ does that really bugs me.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I'm in the minority but I think Frank Johnson will be okay in the long run.

If not, Jerry Colangelo will make a change. He always does.

No worries. I actually like the makeup of this team and find them entertaining. If zones keep bogging them down, I may change my mind. We'll see.

Giving Googs any playing time at all is really the only thing FJ does that really bugs me.

I don't mind seeing Tom Gugliotta every once in a blue moon, but putting him in a relatively soft lineup that included Little Jake and Penny Hardaway was a mistake.

Joe Mama

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Skkorpion

Giving Googs any playing time at all is really the only thing FJ does that really bugs me.

I'm content to see Googs here and there. If Amare is in some foul trouble and Zarko needs a breather, its ok to bring in Googs for a few minutes.

My problem is when we see one of those really bad lineups on the floor. You know, the "Casey, Penny, Marion, Googs, and Jake " type of thing. I just can't figure out why a coach would not see the problem with putting a line up like that on the floor.

FJ is probably safe for now, but FJ will never take us to a championship. If he's smart, he'll find a way to get "promoted" within the organization when the time is convenient for everyone.

 

[elindholm]

FJ is probably safe for now, but FJ will never take us to a championship. If he's smart, he'll find a way to get "promoted" within the organization when the time is convenient for everyone.

If Frank Johnson were smart, most of these discussions would never have taken place.

 

[Errntknght]

Skkorpion wrote, "I'm in the minority but I think Frank Johnson will be okay in the long run.

If not, Jerry Colangelo will make a change. He always does."


Even if I agreed with you about FJ, I'd worry about the 'long run' not being soon enough. I know people like to say we are three or four years away from our golden opportunity for a championship but you never know when it may present itself - it's not impossible this year. What I mean is that if we had a top notch coach it wouldn't be impossible this year. The other thing is that if often takes a couple of years of near success in the playoffs before a team gains that toughness needed to beat a team that is just as talented as itself. And a playoff like last year doesn't count - heck, we were thrilled we pushed the Spurs to six games.
Next year, if we don't get unlucky with injuries, is more likely to be an opportunity if we are ready for it. If FJ is not up to the task of leading the team where it could go will Jerry have recognized it in time... it took him longer to realize Skiles wasn't fit to be a head coach and his case was more obvious than Frank's, who doesn't seem to truly be psychologically disturbed.
Every year after that the risks mount as injuries accumulate and financial questions loom about retaining our young guys. Bad blood may develope between players and FJ or among the players. Opportunities may evaporate for reasons we aren't even speculating about now.
In my view, Frank's shortcomings are too fundamental for him to progress much. I mean every major plan the guy's come up with has been wrong! His plan for the 'pinch post motion offense'; his defensive scheme he had to dismantle last season. "Run, run, run" hasn't showed up at all yet - the team doesn't even take the ball out of bounds like a running team. As far as I can see he hasn't a clue about solving zone defenses... the team may do it if he doesn't interfere but I'm worried - I mean, can you see Zarko jumping up and saying 'hey, Frank, it's time to get me in there!'
I expect the team to get better as they play together longer with Frank's freestyle offense but without some organization I can't see it winning against the best teams under playoff pressure. It would be a first in the history of the league, that's for sure.
In short, I can see the team playing well enough in spite of FJ to save his useless fanny for a couple of seasons but seizing the opportunity to win it all, no way.

 

[elindholm]

I really disagree that the Suns can entertain any fantasies of competing for a title this year. In my opinion the team is clearly too far away. The "big four" in the West (Minnesota being the odd team out) may have their struggles right now, but all are still clearly much better title contenders than Phoenix is. Some sort of significant disaster would have to befall all four of them, which is surpassingly unlikely.

Stephon Marbury may be great, but I don't believe he will ever be good enough to be the best player on a championship-caliber team. He just isn't at that level. The Suns cannot compete for a title until Stoudemire becomes their franchise player. I do hold out hope that that will happen, but I think it's entirely unrealistic to think that it could be as soon as this year. He is just too young, raw, and one-dimensional at this point.

In other words, the stakes for this season aren't quite so high. Yes, it would be nice to make the playoffs, yes, it would be nice to maintain some semblance of chemistry, and yes, it would be nice for the young players to continue to develop. But if the team fumbles its way to a 35-win season and has to spend the summer refocussing on their priorities, I don't think that will be a disaster.

 

[George O'Brien]

I have no doubt that Stephon is capable of being a championship level point guard. There is no way I would trade him for Tony Parker to give just one example.

The real problem is that the Suns still play like a bunch of second and third year players - which most of them are. The talent is close to being competative, but they have some growing up to do.

 

[elindholm]

I have no doubt that Stephon is capable of being a championship level point guard.

That's not what I said. I said he can't be the best player on a championship-level team.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
I have no doubt that Stephon is capable of being a championship level point guard.

That's not what I said. I said he can't be the best player on a championship-level team.

And, that, simply, is misguided and naive.

So let's see, you have a point guard that dishes out 8 assists and scores 20 per game. What makes a poing guard that averages also 8 assists and only scores 12 a game better? I'd like to see the semantics you're basing your entire arguement on.

Why can't he be the best player on a championship team? Simply because he's never had a chance to show that he can be? To me, it sounds like another one of those lame excuses as to why Marbury's teams haven't gotten very far. And the fact of the matter is, you have nothing to really measure it up against.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by elindholm
I really disagree that the Suns can entertain any fantasies of competing for a title this year. In my opinion the team is clearly too far away. The "big four" in the West (Minnesota being the odd team out) may have their struggles right now, but all are still clearly much better title contenders than Phoenix is. Some sort of significant disaster would have to befall all four of them, which is surpassingly unlikely.

Stephon Marbury may be great, but I don't believe he will ever be good enough to be the best player on a championship-caliber team. He just isn't at that level. The Suns cannot compete for a title until Stoudemire becomes their franchise player. I do hold out hope that that will happen, but I think it's entirely unrealistic to think that it could be as soon as this year. He is just too young, raw, and one-dimensional at this point.

In other words, the stakes for this season aren't quite so high. Yes, it would be nice to make the playoffs, yes, it would be nice to maintain some semblance of chemistry, and yes, it would be nice for the young players to continue to develop. But if the team fumbles its way to a 35-win season and has to spend the summer refocussing on their priorities, I don't think that will be a disaster.

I hope you don't think I said they are competing for a championship THIS YEAR. Its quite clear that this team has a way to go, no matter who coaches them. There is always the outside chance the team develops in some extraordinary way, and Shaq and Tim Duncan collide knocking each other out of the season.

I completely disagree with you on Stephon. He is quite capable of being the best player on a championship caliber team, especially if he has a supporting cast of quality players. Steph has the skills AND the mentality to lead a team at the highest level. I believe he is more likely to be the best player on a championship quality team than KJ ever was (and I think alot of KJ).

Fumbling away this season would be a disaster for the long term psyche of these players. JMO.

 

[elindholm]

And, that, simply, is misguided and naive.

Imagine, for a moment, how you would react if someone said that about one of your posts.

So let's see, you have a point guard that dishes out 8 assists and scores 20 per game. What makes a poing guard that averages also 8 assists and only scores 12 a game better?

Huh? I don't have a clue what you're talking about. This mythical point guard who posts 12/8 isn't good enough to be the best player on a championship team either.

Why can't he be the best player on a championship team? Simply because he's never had a chance to show that he can be? To me, it sounds like another one of those lame excuses as to why Marbury's teams haven't gotten very far.

I never said Marbury can't "lead his team" to a championship, whatever that means.

And what do you mean, "he's never had a chance to show that he can be?" If you put him on any roster of any championship team over the past 20 years, he wouldn't be the best player. If you put him on the roster of any NBA finalist over the past 20 years, he wouldn't be the best player, except maybe on the Pacers team led by Reggie Miller.

And the fact of the matter is, you have nothing to really measure it up against.

The fact of the matter is, I have plenty to measure it up against.

If you look at the best players on the last 20+ years' worth of championship teams, you're talking about players like Adbul-Jabbar, Bird, Magic Johnson, Jordan, Olajuwon, O'Neal, and Duncan. I don't think Marbury will ever be at their level. I'm sorry, I just don't. Those are probably among the best 20-25 players ever to play in the NBA. I just don't see it with Marbury, even though I think he's very good.

The worst player to have been the best player on a recent championship team is Isaiah Thomas, whose first name I have probably misspelled, because I am sick of looking it up. Now, I was never a big fan of Thomas's, and those were unique circumstances -- Johnson and Bird had finally faded from power, and Jordan didn't quite have it together yet. Even so, I don't think Marbury is at Thomas's level, and I doubt you'd find 1% of non-Phoenix NBA fans who think he is.

Don't make this into something it isn't. I'm not bashing Marbury or saying that the Suns are doomed as long as he is with the team. I'm saying that they can't win a title until he has a teammate who's even better than he is.

Finally, it was Errntknght who wrote,

I know people like to say we are three or four years away from our golden opportunity for a championship but you never know when it may present itself - it's not impossible this year.

This is what I was disagreeing with. It is impossible this year, or as close to impossible as anyone needs to worry about.

 

[Joe Mama]

Eric, while I believe you make an interesting argument you seem to have conveniently forgot about Isaiah Thomas and the Detroit Pistons. That said, I do agree that Amare Stoudemire needs to get a lot better if the Suns are really going to compete for a championship. They might put the scare into a few teams until then though.

I do agree with JCSunsfan that fumbling away this season would be a disaster. The Suns really need to maintain the winning attitude. This is a young team, and they need to be going forward.

I don't think the Colangeli will hesitate to make a coaching change if they feel this season is really getting away from them.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

Trajan Langdon is one-dimensional. Amare is one-directional. There's a big difference.

Personally, I think that Amare is already the best player on the team--he controls the area immediately around the basket, and he doesn't have any weaknesses that make him a target for mismatches. That's enough to make him one of the ten most valuable players in the league already IMO.


Anyway, I think the Suns are fine with FJ for this year. It's not possible for a team to steal three playoff series in a row anymore--the officials will eventually get to you--so I don't see them having any chance to win this year, in any case.

I think the team will eventually need to bring in somebody who can coach playoff-caliber offense and defense, but right now the Suns have a lot of guys who still need to learn the basics, and with FJ they'll be able to learn those basics on the court where we can all enjoy watching them play.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by F-Dog
I think the team will eventually need to bring in somebody who can coach playoff-caliber offense and defense, but right now the Suns have a lot of guys who still need to learn the basics, and with FJ they'll be able to learn those basics on the court where we can all enjoy watching them play.

Isn't FJ going through the same OJT on his job that most of our players are on theirs?

The Suns recent history of move-em-up, give-em-2-or-3-years, move-em-out, move-up-the-next-one doesn't build stability, or allow experience to be a factor in a Head Coach.

Your point about someone who can coach playoff-caliber offense and defense is a good one. But the time is now while the team is developing.

A strong foundation now rather than icing on the cake later.

 

[George O'Brien]

That's not what I said. I said he can't be the best player on a championship-level team.

I admit I misread your quote. I have to admit it is because I don't understand it.

"Best" is not really a box score concept. There are some great box score players that do not play good defense or do various other things that aren't measured. J White sets monster picks that are never measured. Boxing out helps other guys get rebounds. It goes on and on.

Great players generally combine strong box scores with strong intangibles. The proof is in the results. Winning is what matters, not whether someone things you are better than your teammate.

 

[Errntknght]

Eric, you quoted my post correctly but you did leave out the key sentence, which was that winning a championship wouldn't be impossible this year if we had a top notch coach. Gosh, you weren't imagining I thought FJ was a top notch coach, were you? Maybe I've been too subtle in my remarks about him. With Frank at the helm a championship is impossible... pick any year you like.

We really don't have a very good idea how good this team can be. Look back over Frank's tenure as head coach and notice that the only time this team showed any improvement on the offensive end was when Frank dropped his attempt at employing a motion offense. Pollyanna wearing her rose-colored glasses might think this showed Frank had some coaching ability but it really showed how clueless he is. Heck, even if he'd have had suitable players he didn't know enough about the motion to make it fly.
With our youthful players we ought to see rapid improvement in the area of team play but we see very little. Compare them to Utah or Cleveland, also very youthful teams, as far as team play goes and you get an idea just how poor Frank is. The guys are improving individually and learning to play together but the progress is glacial.
We did get a little peek at what the guys can do in the Chicago and Orlando games. Against their weak defenses we were getting guys open near the basket and getting the ball to them. So they can recognize opportunities and make the passes but against better defense you have to stress the defense to create opportunities. Miami quickly demonstrated we don't know how to do that - luckily for us we were hitting our outside shots and managed to squeak out a win against a cellar dweller.
Here is a very specific failing - remember that nice jumper Marion used to get curling up from the baseline to the stripe? What happened to that play... oooops, that's it, it was a play and therefore, now forbidden.

 

[elindholm]

Eric, you quoted my post correctly but you did leave out the key sentence, which was that winning a championship wouldn't be impossible this year if we had a top notch coach.

Sorry, I did take it partially out of context, and that was inadvertent.

Even so, I disagree. In my opinion the Suns simply do not have championship-level talent this season, under any scenario. That isn't to say this roster can't, more or less as constituted, improve over time -- by which I mean multiple seasons -- until they are at that level.

 

[matt_whitlock]

Here is a very specific failing - remember that nice jumper Marion used to get curling up from the baseline to the stripe? What happened to that play... oooops, that's it, it was a play and therefore, now forbidden.

Yeah, that and the fact that Marion took this summer off basketball-wise and decided to persue his dream as a body-builder. Now, 3 months later, Marion isn't noticebly heavier by an ounce, and, maybe the more important thing:

Shawn Marion can't shoot.

Remember when Marion used to be one of the, if not the best mid-range shooter in the NBA? That was 3 years ago. Two years ago he started shooting the 3 point shot, last year he started hitting it effectively, and this year he just plain can't shoot. I knew I was worried when I was watching the Vince Carter all-star game over the summer and Marion said he hadn't really played since the Spurs series.

Now, it's possible Marion has just been in a month-long slump. I don't know, I mean the guy used to be a very good shooter. He's probably best suited for being a team's 3rd option guy anyway, with Amare and Stephon sharing honors for the 1st.

Regardless of all this, however, I'm not sure what kind of plays this team runs, but you can't really be sure either. Unless you watch the Suns offense really closely, sometimes what looks like pick-up style basketball is actually a play with a lot of different options depending on how the defense plays it. Just because the guys aren't robots out there doesn't mean they're not running a structured offense. And just because they're not running a structured offense doesn't mean that's a bad thing. After all, Stephon, Shawn and Penny went in to talk to Frank about running too tightly strung an offensive set last season. Now Penny doesn't really play, and JJ will be happy as long as he gets to shoot lots and lots of jumpers, but the same thing still applies.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

I think marion would be better as a 4th option player personally. He's really fast, he hustles and they don't really have to run plays for him. If JJ can step it up even more he can be the 3rd option.

 

[cly2tw]

In a nutshell, Marion is just not a go-to-player and way overpaid. I'd rather have Artest or even Harpring at this moment. I hope the Colangelli could strike a deal and ship him to the new expansion team, since I don't know which other team would take him with his contract!

 

[George O'Brien]

Up to a week ago Marion was doing weight lifting on the day of the game. Aparently no one realized this was not a great idea.

Marion did not make the all star team last year by fluke. Read his profiles on some of the fantasy forum sites where he is always in the top two or three at his position. He is widely considered the best rebounder from the small forward position even if he has not been as effective the last few games. He well above average as a defensive player and is a great finisher on the break.

Marion, along with Marbury, have been slow to adjust to the new zone rules. I expect he will improve his scoring stats once he focuses on moving without the ball.

 

[Errntknght]

Matt_W wrote, "Regardless of all this, however, I'm not sure what kind of plays this team runs, but you can't really be sure either. Unless you watch the Suns offense really closely, sometimes what looks like pick-up style basketball is actually a play with a lot of different options depending on how the defense plays it."

I do watch the offense closely. Of course, it's hard to tell 'pick-up' style basketball from what the Suns do because they play pick-up style. However, the Suns play together a lot so it is a bit more polished than your average pick-up game. It's not polished enough to succeed against good defensive teams in the NBA. It was good enough against Chicago and Orlando and it resulted in lots of assists that were to guys shooting close in shots. Against Miami we got quite a few assists but they were mainly on made jumpers after a kick out. That's fine if the if the team is a good jump shooting team which the Suns usually are not. Good one-on-one play carried the team last year and I'm sure it will do about as well this year but it's not going to carry us into serious contention. We might net even make the playoffs if we don't figure out zone defenses.

There are offenses that are built around the idea of maneuvers with lots of different options depending on how the defense plays it. Of course, I'm referring to the triangle and motion offenses. No team has successfully played a true motion offense in the NBA... successful to the extent of winning a title, anyway. The triangle is a close relative of the motion offense but it has only been successfully used in the NBA by Tex Winter (the guy Phil Jackson fronts for...) The point is that while it may sound easy to take what the defense gives you, it is anything but. It's clearly difficult to implement motion and triangle offenses so they'll succeed at high levels and why would one imagine or hope that the ad hoc variety that the Suns are apparently using will improve on them?

It's not the case that classic NBA type of plays are without options depending on how the defense reacts... it's just that they are small scenarios rather than grand scripts. Which is what requires them to be signaled in order to start. That makes them a lot easier to learn though they can be greatly enhanced by polished execution - witness the two man game in the hands of Stockton and Malone. Hardly robotic.



"After all, Stephon, Shawn and Penny went in to talk to Frank about running too tightly strung an offensive set last season. "

I don't know about tightly strung but Frank didn't know enough about the motion offense to allow the bending of it's "rules" to accomodate the pick and roll type maneuvers that Stephon thrives on. So he pitched it out and didn't replace it with anything but the pick and roll... and two variants - the illlegal-pick and roll and the fake-pick and roll.

I'd kind of like to see Frank put in the 'pinch post' maneuver that is the signature of the "pinch post motion" offense he tried last year. It's what you see Bibby and Webber running a lot. Webber pops out to the knuckle on the weak side and Bibby passes the ball to him as he crosses over from the strong side on top. Then Bibby cuts just outside of Webber for a possible return pass if he's gotten some space. In general Webber is a threat to shoot, drive or pass inside at that location. (In motion offense lingo, he's a 'triple threat' for the defense to deal with.) I can see Zarko playing Webber's role with Marbs in place of Bibby.

 

[George O'Brien]

Some teams like the Jazz and the Hornets seem to be comfortable with running complex offenses. That does not mean they are always successful as was shown by how much they stuggled when Baron Davis was hurt last year.

the difference between the Hornets and the Jazz is that while the Hornets are a mostly veteran team, the Jazz are young. Young teams get into trouble when they try to think too much (and become tenative), while it does not bother most veterans. European players are better trained at running offenses against the zone which is why I expect big things from Carbakapa.

:-|