For Those of You Who Continue to Apologize for Sarver

[chickenhead]

Again, the character assassination doesn't change the fact that JJ was a valuable (and tradeable) asset that could have possibly been secured for less money than he ultimately got from Atlanta. That's what some people are remembering. Criticism of JJ is fair, but he had and continues to have interest from other teams.

Replacing KT with Shaq doesn't fly because it wasn't a direct replacement. KT was traded WITH TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS to Seattle for cap relief a trade exception, and a conditional 2nd round pick. Shaq was not part of this plan. The Suns traded Marion for a short-lived Shaq mid-season, about the same time defending champ San Antonio traded for KT and subsequently proceeded to eliminate the Suns in the first round.

Kerr said after the KT trade, “We are doing everything we can to keep our core group together. Sometimes in doing so, you have difficult decisions to make.” Clearly he means money. He did not say, "we're positioning ourselves to make an acquisition like Shaq."

 

[AzStevenCal]

Again, the character assassination doesn't change the fact that JJ was a valuable (and tradeable) asset that could have possibly been secured for less money than he ultimately got from Atlanta. That's what some people are remembering. Criticism of JJ is fair, but he had and continues to have interest from other teams.

Replacing KT with Shaq doesn't fly because it wasn't a direct replacement. KT was traded WITH TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS to Seattle for cap relief a trade exception, and a conditional 2nd round pick. Shaq was not part of this plan. The Suns traded Marion for a short-lived Shaq mid-season, about the same time defending champ San Antonio traded for KT and subsequently proceeded to eliminate the Suns in the first round.

Kerr said after the KT trade, “We are doing everything we can to keep our core group together. Sometimes in doing so, you have difficult decisions to make.” Clearly he means money. He did not say, "we're positioning ourselves to make an acquisition like Shaq."

I think the JJ situation was a mistake albeit an understandable one. However, I think the Shaq deal was a pretty bad decision that would not have been made by real basketball people. The Kurt Thomas trade borders on criminal. All told, I think Sarver has done a poor job since buying the Suns and I'd love to see him divest himself of ownership.

All that said, I agree with the Sarver supporter(s) that he gets unfairly maligned and is rarely given credit for any of the successes this franchise has enjoyed during his tenure. I think he has tried to put a winning team out there and he's been willing to spend money to do it but he's used poor judgement in deciding where to save his pennies.

Steve

 

[chickenhead]

True, the Sarver hate does reach hysterical levels. However, I think the general take is that the credit he would get for making the WCF in '05 and '06 is undercut by the cap relief moves that many feel prevented the Suns from going further, or getting back. Kerr being asked to take a 10% pay cut after the WCF smacks of the same. If they hire a GM that most consider an improvement, I'll eat my words. But seriously, there's no way I can be convinced that Sarver "spends" when there are so many clear examples of him not avoiding spending to detrimental results.

I echo those who say he's not properly addressing the fan base. This is a fan base looking for an owner as fixated on a championship as they are. One who thinks that nothing less will do for the Pheonix Suns and their fans. Easy for me to say, I know. But that's who we are as Suns fans, and if he wants to sell tickets, he needs to understand that.

 

[elindholm]

I echo those who say he's not properly addressing the fan base. This is a fan base looking for an owner as fixated on a championship as they are.

I suspect that isn't true. While we would like to believe that the regulars on this board are a representative sample of the full fan base, probably most of the fans are more concerned with short-term entertainment.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I suspect that isn't true. While we would like to believe that the regulars on this board are a representative sample of the full fan base, probably most of the fans are more concerned with short-term entertainment.

Eh, I don't know...of all the teams in town, I'd say the Suns definitely have the most rabid, knowledgeable and desperate fan base. Getting close to that elusive championship and then kicked in the nuts has been almost an annual pleasure over the last decade or so, and it's understandable that the imminent dismantling of a team/front office two games away from the finals would ruffle some feathers. Further, it's pretty evident that most fans have very little confidence that an ownership group led by Sarver will ever get us a championship. Good times!

 

[devilalum]

The problem is that the same fans that all want the Suns to totally rebuild won't be paying to sit in USAC and watch a 20-42 team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem is that the same fans that all want the Suns to totally rebuild won't be paying to sit in USAC and watch a 20-42 team.

That is true. And we won't be the ones watching the bottom line suffer during that process. Still, you have an implied commitment to your fan base that you will endeavor to build a championship team and if it becomes obvious that you have no intention of doing that you'll eventually lose fans regardless.

But there's a lot of ground in between those two options and I suspect that's where we'll spend the next decade or so. They'll do just enough to keep most fans from going suicidal but without making a true effort to build a real winner. They'll convince me otherwise when they are willing to strip this team bare and take their lumps for a few years. And for those that believe it will happen, watch out for the low flying pigs.

Steve

 

[Gaddabout]

The problem is that the same fans that all want the Suns to totally rebuild won't be paying to sit in USAC and watch a 20-42 team.

Not my problem. Owners should only buy sports teams because they want a billion-dollar toy and can afford to maintain it. If they get involved for any other reason they're in the wrong business.

 

[Yuma]

Not my problem. Owners should only buy sports teams because they want a billion-dollar toy and can afford to maintain it. If they get involved for any other reason they're in the wrong business.

I just read an excerpt from the new book about Steinbrenner, and he only put like $160K of his own money into the Yankees. Now they think between the Yankees and the YES network, his family owns about 5 BILLION in value from those organizations!! Now THAT'S an investment!

 

[Gaddabout]

I just read an excerpt from the new book about Steinbrenner, and he only put like $160K of his own money into the Yankees. Now they think between the Yankees and the YES network, his family owns about 5 BILLION in value from those organizations!! Now THAT'S an investment!

Those days are long over, and it goes without saying a NY team will always have the potential to balloon in value like no other market.

Colangelo had less than six figures invested in the Suns and about $1 million in the D-Backs. He walked away with $10 million. *shrug* But he still did business to win.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns have received permission from the Spurs to speak with Dennis Lindsey about being their next GM on the condition they wait until after Thursday's draft, league sources said Tuesday.

Sources said owner Robert Sarver also hopes to talk to Boston Celtics GM Danny Ainge, former New Jersey Nets assistant GM Kiki Vandeweghe and former Portland Trail Blazers assistant GM Tom Penn.



Read more: http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...on_to_interview_dennis_lindsey/#ixzz0reIQCvyQ

Ainge and Vangeweghe (although not a fan of Kiki at all) are big names. So much for Sarver wanting to go the cheapest route although that has worked very well for Orlando and Houston getting noname GMs.

 

[Superbone]

Ainge and Vangeweghe (although not a fan of Kiki at all) are big names. So much for Sarver wanting to go the cheapest route although that has worked very well for Orlando and Houston getting noname GMs.

It's just a smokescreen. No way Ainge is interested in working with Sarver. It's for appearances only and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah I just love how people fall for the one-sided media coverage all the time and just take it as the truth what so called insider heard from people that heard from other people etc..

It might just as well be that Sarver's evaluation of Kerr's work was such that he did not think that Kerr deserved a raise if it is even all about the money.

We can't really assess Kerr's work anyway as we don't know what deals where on the table at all times and we have no idea what decisions Kerr made.

 

[chickenhead]

OT: Go USA!

If it really were about Kerr's work, why would Sarver pursue his chosen route? Did he actually think that Kerr accepting the pay cut was a reasonable expectation? Or did he think the scrutiny and criticism of forcing Kerr to walk would be less?

The news that the Suns are possibly talking with Ainge and Vandewheghe doesn't prove that Sarver is willing to spend more on the GM position. Until he actually does, the pay cut is the more telling evidence. We'll see.

 

[Irish]

I'm surprised the reality of the NBA is not being discussed. Last year, the following teams had salaries of:

Boston - 87.054
LA Lakers - 91.377
Orlando - 82.132
Cleveland - 84.153
San Antonio - 79.157
Dallas - 86.972
Utah - 74.86
Denver - 74.993
Phoenix - 74.927

In the West, only Portand and OK City of playoff teams were below the luxury tax line due to having star on rookie contracts. Since the Suns had a lot of money tied up in the Ben Wallace contract, the Suns will be below the LT line this coming season. The bottom line is that teams looking to get to the finals have paid upwards of $20 million more than the Suns have to current players.

 

[KloD]

I'm hoping someone by now in this thread has pointed out that Porter's contract, a Kerr mistake, is still costing Sarver 2.7 million a year and it's not like there aren't other costly mistakes. Kerr is/was paid in the top 1/3 of GM's in the league. How does that equate to a raise? He was asked to sign the same contract he had previously.

While I'm no fan of Sarver, I don't believe Asking Kerr to accept the same deal warrents the hate. Jeez, most of you wanted Kerr fired for the same reasons you are now praising him. Drafting Lopez and Dragic, Richardson/Dudley trade, ect., heck even the Gentry hire fell into his lap. He made some decisions that worked out, and others that bombed, I don't see anything in his track record that warrented a raise.

 

[Irish]

Unfortunately, many posters to sports boards think political talk radio is the model for their conversations. "Everything should be painted in extreme terms." "If in doubt, abuse your critics."

Personally, I feel I'm something of a Sarver critic, but I don't get some of the scorched earth tactics he's subjected to AT TIMES. He is far from blameless even though the cricticism tends to go over the top.

 

[pokerface]

What a lot of people dont get is an owner or gm can have an overall scheme or strategy that the average fan is unaware of. Fans judge each transaction on its own without knowing the full plans involved for "down the road"...like for instance one player may seemingly get dumped for peanuts while the owner may actually be looking to lock up a future player and is freeing up cash or space etc etc.

In the grand scheme of things Sarver has put together a good product. People can knock individual moves he's made but they cant knock the overall results he's acheived. The Suns have been competitive since he's been here. Now though things are resting on his shoulders more than ever and I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt until this offseason is over. Lets see how he handles these next few months.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What a lot of people dont get is an owner or gm can have an overall scheme or strategy that the average fan is unaware of. Fans judge each transaction on its own without knowing the full plans involved for "down the road"...like for instance one player may seemingly get dumped for peanuts while the owner may actually be looking to lock up a future player and is freeing up cash or space etc etc.

In the grand scheme of things Sarver has put together a good product. People can knock individual moves he's made but they cant knock the overall results he's acheived. The Suns have been competitive since he's been here. Now though things are resting on his shoulders more than ever and I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt until this offseason is over. Lets see how he handles these next few months.

I don't really have a problem with anything you're saying here other than perhaps one area. So far, he's done/said nothing to indicate that he's learned how stupid it is to routinely sell draft picks for cash. I'd have a lot more hope for the future if I thought he'd really learned from his past. Not saying he hasn't, just that there's no evidence yet that he has.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

I don't really have a problem with anything you're saying here other than perhaps one area. So far, he's done/said nothing to indicate that he's learned how stupid it is to routinely sell draft picks for cash. I'd have a lot more hope for the future if I thought he'd really learned from his past. Not saying he hasn't, just that there's no evidence yet that he has.

Steve

Well, he hasn't sold any in awhile, so that could be evidence.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, he hasn't sold any in awhile, so that could be evidence.

It could be. It hasn't happened enough yet to call it a trend though. And, like I said, it would be nice to hear him acknowledge it was a mistake. As it is, I'm not at all sure he doesn't feel that his selling of draft picks has contributed to the winning percentage he seems so thrilled with.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Chad Ford, ESPN Insider:
In case you missed it ... the best read of the draft season. Michael Heisley: Draft Expert. http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jun/20/owners-manual/
Wednesday June 23, 2010 2:58 Chad Ford, ESPN Insider
2:59


sportsguy33:
Chad, what do you think of this relatively new trend of owners running basketball operations? Seems like Heisley is doing it in Memphis, now Sarver in Phoenix...


Chad Ford, ESPN Insider:
I keep hearing that LeBron cares more about a team's owner than the city, coach or even team. After reading that story ... I think I know why. A bad owner kills any chance of winning a title. Good owners always find a way. And, by the way, good owners hire a GM who knows what they are doing and then gets out of the way.

sportsguy33:
Couldn't agree more. Look, Donald Sterling has proven for 30 solid years that everything good or bad that happens to an NBA team starts at the top and trickles down...

Here we are, beginning of a very important off season with no GM, no assistant GM and no plan in place. Very interesting read about how well owner meddling is working in Memphis: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jun/20/owners-manual

 

[Covert Rain]

Seriously...if I could start a F-bomb thread right now and just dedicate my first post to dropping more f-bombs...I would do it. I told everyone when Sarver first starting selling draft picks that this was only the beginning of the end for the winning culture around here.

Now with us losing GM's, VP's, letting FA's walk (Joe, Amare) and making bad signings etc........F@#$........F@#$........F@#$........F@#$........