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joeshmo

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Snakester said:
Gerald Hayes is the best athlete out of the three and he is not what I would call a speed demon.

Compared to Parham, Hayes is a speed demon. 4.75 compared to 4.98. Parham is the slowest LB in the draft. DT's and OL can beat him.

And all of the LB's you mentioned all have one thing in common, they are all still pretty fast 3 down MLB's with size.

Now I still like Parham as a 5th rounder as a goaline short yardage LB specialist while we try to train his speed and agiliy in a real NFL program for a few years type prospect.
 

kerouac9

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I'd respond to you comparing a prospective 4th round draft pick to the current NFL Defensive Player of the Year (who I happen to believe wasn't even the best defensive player on his team) and a former NFL Defensive Player of the Year, but just re-phrasing your comment kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it, Snakester?

Lance Mitchell = Kai Parham. Why would we want two of these guys. At least Mitchell has the excuse of coming off injury. Parham makes sense for a 3-4 team, but not for this one.
 
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Harry

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Okay, where to start with Mr. Clancy? First of all on the allegation that I am not aware of his recent performance, I think one looks at a player’s entire history before making determinations. I've known too many one year wonders. There is no arguing that he had the best year of his career last season. So did Mr. Ross the previous year at Pittsburgh and did you like his performance last season?

As to his impact on the passing game, where I think he will have most of his impact, while in JUCO he had 17.5 sacks. At Mississippi he had 7 sacks in his senior year when he played in what amounted to only 8 games. He needs polish, but with his strength in penetrating and with the Cards’ defensive ends both coming in hard, I think he will meet quite a few quarterbacks stepping into the pocket. He needs to learn how to finish, but he will set a career record in sacks. I believe his 2 last seasons were his only career sacks. I look for 4 in 2006. Also, because Clancy is a penetrater, expect to see the opposing quarterback flushed more often, which should provide even better sack opportunities for the ends. When the QB is on the move, it’s hard for his blockers to know where to steer the rushers. So Joe, I have to wonder if you aren't one of those people you asked about, "if people know who Clancy is at all some times."

As to run stopping, I agree that he did have a good season last year. He had 37 total tackles. However, Davis in 2004 (his last full season), had 49 tackles. That’s 32% more tackles if you’re keeping score. Perhaps Davis saw more running plays, but he clearly played well inside. The 37 tackles represented a high for Clancy and exceeded his previous career total. Davis has had as many as 54 in his Cardinal career. Davis is more of a stay-at-home, traditional anchor tackle. I continue to think it will be hard to get a team off the field if the run right at our tackles.

As to upon what did I base may durability concern, the answer is Clancy’s career. Last year was the first time in 9 seasons that he has played a significant amount in every game. I know some will say he’s not worn down, but you just don’t know about his durability. In the 4 years previous to last year’s injury, Davis played in 15 games once and in 16 games 3 times. He average 46 tackles and was on the field for a vast majority of the plays. Based on the nature of his injury, there is a good reason to presume he will remain durable. Clancy may prove able to handle that workload, but he hasn’t proved it yet. This is not a concern about size. Hovan, who’s even smaller, did a great job against the run last season. This is about history.

Finally if Clancy was so great last year for the Giants, why didn’t they re-sign him? He was a bargain if that good. Ron Del Duca, Clancy’s agent stated, “I think the Giants are a little displeased, but I went to them with the offer and they elected not to match it.” In fact the Cards could have had him for far less in October of 2004 when he was given his outright release by the Steelers. They re-signed him after Hampton was hurt, but then let him walk at the end of the season. The Giants took a chance on him because his coach, Tim Lewis, had moved to the Giants and he liked Clancy’s attitude and hustle. Clancy rewarded him with a big year and then took the money and left. As to that major improvement the Giant's made against the run, you might want to give Tim Lewis's defensive scheme some of the credit. The brought him in from Pittsburgh for just that reason. Clancy helped, but it is simplistic to credit him as the difference maker.

Overall Clancy is a good citizen who plays hard. He played great against Seattle, which likely peaked the Cards’ interest. Switching from a steady Davis to a hard-charging Clancy may prove to be the right move, but to class it as a certain major upgrade is simply not supported by the facts.

Now as to the rest of this "stuff." I have to love Krangs', "Harry's been wrong a lot lately." Wouldn't it be boring if I was always right? It wouldn't be much fun for any of us if I always knew what would happen. I've already made my apologies for my prediction on last year's record. I was fairly accurate in saying the O-line would be the big concern. How about my obsevation that "Warner would be injured much of the season?" Then there was my note that Arrington was nothing more than a "change of pace" back. I'm sure I made as many wrong predictions, but I'll take my overall record and live with it.

As to the question about Parham, he's a tough call. He does play the run well, but is poor in coverage and does not get a deep enough drop when playing zone. He's much better going forward. Thus, he's more of a 2 down player you have to constantly keep replacing. Because of end game, shotgun formations and hurry-up offenses, teams are looking for a better speed-size combination. If he lasted until the fourth round, I'd take him, but he will probably be gone in the third. He would really strengthen the middle run defense.

As to whether I would have kept McCown, the answer is yes. Then I would have kept Davis and fixed the O-line. I think the Cards are playing to star power for the new stadium and looking ahead to 2007 when they have phenomenal cap room. I'd be okay with that if they had the guts to say it.

I think they will draft to the O-line and if they get lucky and get Gilles, then maybe it all works out in the end.

If I missed any other embedded questions, shout them back at me. Lastly, don't get me wrong on James. He's a fine back who will be fun to watch. I just believe games are still won in the trenches and the Cards look light in the offensive trench to me.

Thanks for the kind words about my being back. Hopefully this is all medical interruptions for awhile. Before I forget it, I will apologize in advance for not being in the chat room on draft day. It's great fun and I encourage you all to attend. I actually have a job on the west coast for that weekend, but I hope to get something posted by Monday or Tuesday.
 

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Harry said:
Before I forget it, I will apologize in advance for not being in the chat room on draft day. It's great fun and I encourage you all to attend.

I'm sorry to hear you won't be in the chat this year. I think we've been in the same draft day chat for the past five years. Your comments and insight will be sorely missed this year.

Go Cards!!!
 

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Harry said:
So did Mr. Ross the previous year at Pittsburgh and did you like his performance last season?
Ross was the worst lineman on that Pitt. line and was also the worst starter here.

Harry said:
As to his impact on the passing game, where I think he will have most of his impact, while in JUCO he had 17.5 sacks. At Mississippi he had 7 sacks in his senior year when he played in what amounted to only 8 games. He needs polish, but with his strength in penetrating and with the Cards’ defensive ends both coming in hard, I think he will meet quite a few quarterbacks stepping into the pocket. He needs to learn how to finish, but he will set a career record in sacks. I believe his 2 last seasons were his only career sacks. I look for 4 in 2006. Also, because Clancy is a penetrater, expect to see the opposing quarterback flushed more often, which should provide even better sack opportunities for the ends. When the QB is on the move, it’s hard for his blockers to know where to steer the rushers. So Joe, I have to wonder if you aren't one of those people you asked about, "if people know who Clancy is at all some times."
2 Sacks in 6 years and 7 TFL last year, he is not a penetrator and is not a pass rusher. He played lighter in College but beefed up to fit in Pitt. I'm sure he will get a few sacks this year but he is far from a pass rusher.

Harry said:
As to run stopping, I agree that he did have a good season last year. He had 37 total tackles. However, Davis in 2004 (his last full season), had 49 tackles. That’s 32% more tackles if you’re keeping score. Perhaps Davis saw more running plays, but he clearly played well inside. The 37 tackles represented a high for Clancy and exceeded his previous career total. Davis has had as many as 54 in his Cardinal career. Davis is more of a stay-at-home, traditional anchor tackle. I continue to think it will be hard to get a team off the field if the run right at our tackles.
Davis was getting pushed off the line and was making those plays five yards downfield, hardly an anchor and yes Davis did see more running plays. How does it bode for Davis if as soon as he is hurt our Run D improves greatly with waiver wire guys and career back-ups.?

Harry said:
As to upon what did I base may durability concern, the answer is Clancy’s career. Last year was the first time in 9 seasons that he has played a significant amount in every game. I know some will say he’s not worn down, but you just don’t know about his durability. In the 4 years previous to last year’s injury, Davis played in 15 games once and in 16 games 3 times. He average 46 tackles and was on the field for a vast majority of the plays. Based on the nature of his injury, there is a good reason to presume he will remain durable. Clancy may prove able to handle that workload, but he hasn’t proved it yet. This is not a concern about size. Hovan, who’s even smaller, did a great job against the run last season. This is about history.
Clancy got the chance to play and he played and started all his teams games, what more do you want honestly? Davis is coming off a season ending injury, I can't believe you even tried to make that argument.

Harry said:
Finally if Clancy was so great last year for the Giants, why didn’t they re-sign him? He was a bargain if that good. Ron Del Duca, Clancy’s agent stated, “I think the Giants are a little displeased, but I went to them with the offer and they elected not to match it.” In fact the Cards could have had him for far less in October of 2004 when he was given his outright release by the Steelers. They re-signed him after Hampton was hurt, but then let him walk at the end of the season. The Giants took a chance on him because his coach, Tim Lewis, had moved to the Giants and he liked Clancy’s attitude and hustle. Clancy rewarded him with a big year and then took the money and left. As to that major improvement the Giant's made against the run, you might want to give Tim Lewis's defensive scheme some of the credit. The brought him in from Pittsburgh for just that reason. Clancy helped, but it is simplistic to credit him as the difference maker.
THey let him walk because they had a Pro-Bowler in Casey Hampton and when he was injured in 2004-05, Chris Hoke filled in incredibly well and elevvated the Steelers Run D to #1 overall. So why keep Clancy when the Steelers knew he wanted to play? Also, Tim Lewis was the guy who played LeThon Flowers and Brent Alexander as the Steelers Ss while Polamalu rode the bench.

editors note: Fixed the quoting for you
 
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JeffGollin

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You said it perfectly when you asked who the leader of this o-line is? There isn't a take-charge player on it.
To use a hockey analogy, a couple of days ago, I was watching the NJ Devils uncharacteristically blow a 3-goal 3rd period lead.

The inevitable question arose - "What's wrong with the Devils?" Answer - No more Scott Stevens. No more Ken Daneyko. No more Scott Neidermier. All defensemen/all provided veteran leadership.

There are no leaders on our O-line. We've got KW leading the over all offense and Q appears to be the lead dawg of the receiving corp. But that's about it for the offense.

On defense, we've got B-Train leading the D-line, Darling the logical veteran leader of the linebacking crew and Robert Griffith the veteran leader of the secondary (with Adrian Wilson carrying the defense on his back more and more).

Aside from Elton Brown, nearly all our starters and potential starters can no longer be considered "youngsters" - they all have at least a couple of years under their belts. Maybe one of them will step up. (Hmmm. "step" - interesting choice of words).
 

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a very thoughtful piece by harry.....i am continuing to "waste ink" insofar as the game is won and lost on both lines....can't question the james signing because under the right cirumstances he is going to be great to watch as was stated and give us a whole new dimension....this goes out the window without a major improvment up front....however we get there...the way it looks is that the decision makers seem to feel we have the right people there with the right coach...i'll buy into the coaching theory...but don't believe we have the right stable of horses...on the DL i sorta' like what i ...but it's not deep....a first round choice could mean instant gratification....DT's if the are worth their salt can hit the ground running with a very short learning curve....when all is said and done...if young is there at 10 that is who they will take...one other point..runyon was NEVER considerting going too far from the NY to DC area...so we should not be too upset about that.
 
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Harry

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Mr Big Where did you get your TFL stats from?
 
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Harry

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Okay we're talking fantasy football. You're referring to "stuffs," which include stop-for-no-gain, I believe. I wasn't aware the NFL was tracking these now. In any case, I guess it doesn't help me much if Davis doesn't have many, which I'll accept since he is not a penetrating tackle. I guess we'll see when the year starts. By the way this pass rush thing started with my comment Clancy would improve the pass rush. Not that he would be a leading sack artist personally. I added the college stuff to indicate he has the ability. Anyone who averages a sack a game in college is usually a decent rusher in the NFL, though there have been some noteable exceptions. I guess the season will tell. Let's move on, as reasonable fans can reasonably differ.
 
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Harry

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Ngata, but then so does everyone else. I'll give you a couple more in an article before the draft.
 

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Harry said:
Ngata, but then so does everyone else. I'll give you a couple more in an article before the draft.

Looking forward to it!!! Is Babatunde from Stanford one of 'em? Gonna miss having you in the draft chat this year too btw.
 

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Here are 5 DT players who we should look at between the 4-6 rounds.

These are not in order of perfrence.

1. Dusty Dvoracek DT 6'2 3/4" 306 5.03

2. Montavious Stanley DT 6'2 313 5.20

3. Titus Adams DT 6'3 3/8" 308 5.14

4. Johnny Jolly DT 6'3 1/4" 317 5.43

5. Steve Fifa DT 6' 322 5.15

These 5 are good at the 4-3 DT spots. Stout against the run but are average against the pass. These 5 have upside and with the right coaching and getting them in better shape they could be good Pro players for us.



Navy Mike
 

joeshmo

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BigRedArk said:
Looking forward to it!!! Is Babatunde from Stanford one of 'em? Gonna miss having you in the draft chat this year too btw.

What I saw of Babatunde wasnt really a run stuffer but a jack of all trades. Not a great run stufer or great pass rusher but better then avverage to good at both with some upside to get better at both. Strong Kid up top but needs to get stronger in the legs.

Here are all of his combine measurements. Now when looking at DT or OL measurements I tend to look more at the 10 yard, 20 yard times for their speed since most DT won be running 40 yards ever. The Bench for upper body strength and the Vertical and Baord jump to show lower body strength and explosiveness. Shuttle and cone for agility.

Babatunde -
Height - 6' 1 5/8"
Weight - 304
40 - 5.27
20 - 3.04
10 - 1.80
Bench - 33
Vert - 32
Broad - 8'9"
Shuttle - 4.57
Cone - 7.89

Here are the DT's that the Cards interviewed at the combine andmight be a good indication as to some 2nd day picks or Gabe Watson.

Gabe Watson (Michigan, DT) – 6-3 1/2, 339, 5.25
Kyle Williams (LSU, DT) – 6-1 1/4, 299, 5.15
Johnny Jolly (Texas A&M, DT) – 6-3 1/4, 3.17, 5.43
Tommy Jackson (Auburn, DT) – 6-0 3/8, 304, 5.26

Here are their measureables.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/rating...r=2006&GenPos=DT&sortorder=LastName&order=ASC
 

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joeshmo said:
What I saw of Babatunde wasnt really a run stuffer but a jack of all trades. Not a great run stufer or great pass rusher but better then avverage to good at both with some upside to get better at both. Strong Kid up top but needs to get stronger in the legs.

Here are all of his combine measurements. Now when looking at DT or OL measurements I tend to look more at the 10 yard, 20 yard times for their speed since most DT won be running 40 yards ever. The Bench for upper body strength and the Vertical and Baord jump to show lower body strength and explosiveness. Shuttle and cone for agility.

Babatunde -
Height - 6' 1 5/8"
Weight - 304
40 - 5.27
20 - 3.04
10 - 1.80
Bench - 33
Vert - 32
Broad - 8'9"
Shuttle - 4.57
Cone - 7.89

Here are the DT's that the Cards interviewed at the combine andmight be a good indication as to some 2nd day picks or Gabe Watson.

Gabe Watson (Michigan, DT) – 6-3 1/2, 339, 5.25
Kyle Williams (LSU, DT) – 6-1 1/4, 299, 5.15
Johnny Jolly (Texas A&M, DT) – 6-3 1/4, 3.17, 5.43
Tommy Jackson (Auburn, DT) – 6-0 3/8, 304, 5.26

Here are their measureables.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/rating...r=2006&GenPos=DT&sortorder=LastName&order=ASC

Interesting stuff joe. The two DT's that standout as far as I could tell were Ngata and Bunkley. Bunkley has good 10 and 20 yrd times and incredible strength (44 bench press reps) and great broad jump. He looks great on paper lol. Of the 4 the Cards interviewed Kyle Williams looks the best it seems like. Jolly looks kinda slow.
 

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BigRedArk said:
Interesting stuff joe. The two DT's that standout as far as I could tell were Ngata and Bunkley. Bunkley has good 10 and 20 yrd times and incredible strength (44 bench press reps) and great broad jump. He looks great on paper lol. Of the 4 the Cards interviewed Kyle Williams looks the best it seems like. Jolly looks kinda slow.

I would like to get Williams in the middle rounds, he doesn't have huge upside and is decently slow but I really like his ability to just make plays and be a football player. I think the Cards are looking for a guy who can play both tackle spots unless a great Nose like Watson falls right into their laps.
 
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vinnymac

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the only thing i am upset about is not getting larry allen. everone in this thread has agreed that the offensive line needs leadership and larry allen was that guy. the worst thing about not getting larry allen is that he went to the 49ers. a division foe. i believe larry allen would put the cardinals in the nfc championship game. i know everyone thinking that i have lost my mind with that statement. remeber that the cardinals where the worst team in the redzone last season. how many rushing tds do the cardinals rb have. 2 or 3. most of it is from the offensive line not having that nasty streak in them and no one to put that nasty streak in them. larry allen would provide all that. with larry allen the cardinals offensive line would have one of the best o-line in football this season. that is just my opinion.
 

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Larry Allen was not a leader of the Dallas line. Why does anyone think that he would be the leader here? It just doesn't make any sense.
 

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vinnymac said:
the only thing i am upset about is not getting larry allen. everone in this thread has agreed that the offensive line needs leadership and larry allen was that guy. the worst thing about not getting larry allen is that he went to the 49ers. a division foe. i believe larry allen would put the cardinals in the nfc championship game. i know everyone thinking that i have lost my mind with that statement. remeber that the cardinals where the worst team in the redzone last season. how many rushing tds do the cardinals rb have. 2 or 3. most of it is from the offensive line not having that nasty streak in them and no one to put that nasty streak in them. larry allen would provide all that. with larry allen the cardinals offensive line would have one of the best o-line in football this season. that is just my opinion.

Give Loney a chance with this line. It will be much improved. Milford Brown should be a pleasant surprise. It's C and RT where we're most unsure.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Mitch said:
Right on the money, Harry. You said it perfectly when you asked who the leader of this o-line is? There isn't a take-charge player on it. Leonard Davis is too introverted...and the rest are sheepish, at best. The one player who may have some leadership instincts is Nick Leckey. I thought he grabbed the bull by the horns when he became the starter at center...but Leckey hasn't been a starter long enough for anyone to know for sure what kind of a leader he is.
Bertrand Berry's leadership galvanized the defensive line when he arrived. What the Cardinals need is an offensive lineman to do the same...which is one of the MAJOR reasons why the team needs to sign a veteran free agent...one who upgrade the talent level and provides much needed leadership.
Aren't you the one who was trying to base assumptions on Anquan Boldin's body language last year:doi: ? How do you know who's introverted, a leader, or sheepish? Unless you have some interaction within the team, to assume otherwise is pure guesswork.
 

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kerouac9 said:
Larry Allen was not a leader of the Dallas line. Why does anyone think that he would be the leader here? It just doesn't make any sense.

you are trying to tell me that the only player left on the roster from the cowboys last superbowl win, spent all of his 12 years in the nfl with the cowboys, and 10 time pro bowl ol is not the leader on that oline. i am afraid you might be mistaken.
 

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