Fresh Start? (again)

[Chaplin]

That's just it--which is considered more important--Kobe Bryant, or the possibility of being able to sign a first round draft pick in 2007?

IF we were able to get Kobe Bryant, for the length of his and Amare's contracts we'd be getting most likely later first rounders--very little value in the first place. And with the age of this CURRENT Suns team, who would we need to sign?

Of course, there's always the injury issue, but if we ran the organization based on injuries, we'd never get to the Finals.

However, you bring up a good issue in the center area, but I think you are overrating our ability to get one, and the amount of money it would take in relation to our current salary situation.

The REAL problem with Kobe Bryant (assuming we are able to sign him, which means getting rid of Jahidi or Eisley), and this can't be stressed enough, will be a couple years down the line. The REAL problem we would face with signing Kobe is NOT Kobe, but resigning Amare Stoudemire, assuming he will blossom like many of us think he will.

Call me crazy, but I don't want to sacrifice our future just so that we can extend Stoudemire in 2 years. He's not going to get us to the promised land alone. That's a fact.

 

[elindholm]

George O'Brien:

My thought is that a max cap guy should be the last major piece of the puzzle.

It sounds like you just have a lower opinion of Bryant's talent than some of us. Bryant is the most major piece of the puzzle there is, in my opinion. I think if you have the best player in the league, it doesn't matter what position he plays, and it doesn't matter whether he was the "last" acquisition or has been on board a bit longer.

I guess the question boils down to, "Could a team based on Bryant and Stoudemire win a title with an improvised, by-committee center rotation?" I think the answer is yes and you think it is no. Is that a fair assessment?

Chaplin:

The REAL problem we would face with signing Kobe is NOT Kobe, but resigning Amare Stoudemire, assuming he will blossom like many of us think he will.

Why? The Suns could have Bryant and Stoudemire on max deals and still have a payroll within normal bounds for an NBA franchise. Sure, they'd be over the cap, but so is almost every team in the league. Before the big trade, the Suns were prepared to head into the future with three max players (Marbury, Marion, and Hardaway until Stoudemire's turn came up). If Bryant were on board, what would be the problem with Stoudemire being the third max contract then?

creed:

The contract could be a for a couple mill less than max but have big raises as Suns payroll comes down.

Annual raises in a multi-year contract are restricted by the CBA.

cly2tw:

What's the implication? It's imperative to get rid of Marion's max contract, for cap!

Good luck.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by elindholm

What's the implication? It's imperative to get rid of Marion's max contract, for cap!

Good luck.

Hey, when Marion starts shooting a bit better, he will again be a top-10 fantasy player. Isn't that worth anything to the GMs around the league?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm


Chaplin:

The REAL problem we would face with signing Kobe is NOT Kobe, but resigning Amare Stoudemire, assuming he will blossom like many of us think he will.

Why? The Suns could have Bryant and Stoudemire on max deals and still have a payroll within normal bounds for an NBA franchise. Sure, they'd be over the cap, but so is almost every team in the league. Before the big trade, the Suns were prepared to head into the future with three max players (Marbury, Marion, and Hardaway until Stoudemire's turn came up). If Bryant were on board, what would be the problem with Stoudemire being the third max contract then?

Well, considering the talk around here is how Shawn can't be moved (even though it strangely appears everyone wants him out).

 

[Djaughe]

Whats so special about Kobe?

Maybe I'm in the minority on this subject - But I don't think Kobe has showed that he would be a good fit. As a player he's in the top 3 in the NBA - but as a leader he's a disapointment.

I'd rather have the suns get a vet. that can be a good example and help develop the players.

If the suns really want to spend money go after Kevin Garnett! I think that'll increase ratings in a more positive way!

Of course it all depends if the T-Wolves stumble again in the playoffs. The problem is finding a team that can afford him. It's unlikely that Garnett will want to leave Minnesota for a rebuilding situation in Denver or Utah. That means that either Garnett takes one of the biggest pay cuts ever to join a contender or he convinces GM Kevin McHale to do a sign-and-trade. I think the suns could be that dark horse since KG has limited options.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm just wondering why the possibility of getting a basketball player like Kobe Bryant would be bad to some people. (Trial not withstanding)

In my case, I'm not interested in seeing the team that I've rooted so long for--and which has been nursed so carefully to get to this point--suddenly transformed into the "supporting cast" (wink wink, nudge nudge) for this would-be GOAT who happens to be a complete @#$hole, and the second-most-self-centered great player in NBA history.


I'm also not interested in having to look at the NBA's worst tattoo, or sharing my team with about 5 million of the league's worst fans.


From a talent standpoint, of course, the Suns would be crazy not to do anything in their power to sign Kobe, if he's actually willing to grace them with his presence for the next few years...that's not the question you asked here, though.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by F-Dog
In my case, I'm not interested in seeing the team that I've rooted so long for--and which has been nursed so carefully to get to this point--suddenly transformed into the "supporting cast" (wink wink, nudge nudge) for this would-be GOAT who happens to be a complete @#$hole, and the second-most-self-centered great player in NBA history.

I'm also not interested in having to look at the NBA's worst tattoo, or sharing my team with about 5 million of the league's worst fans.

From a talent standpoint, of course, the Suns would be crazy not to do anything in their power to sign Kobe, if he's actually willing to grace them with his presence for the next few years...that's not the question you asked here, though.

Ouch. I'm not THAT negitive.

My concern is practical. I cannot see the Suns winning without at least a middle class center. Someone who can play defense, grab rebounds, block shots, and put up enough points to keep opponsnts from being able to double Amare all the time. I love Jake, but that's not him.

What does that have to do with Kobe? To sign Kobe the Suns will have to use one or both of their lottery picks to get rid of enough cap space to have a chance. They will almost certainly have to get rid of White. Even if they had a chance to get a real center prospect in the draft, they couldn't draft him because they the rookie salary would count against the cap.

This means the Suns would enter next season with only Voskuhl and Lampe playing center. I am excited about Lampe's potential, but he is 18 years old and has not played a minute of NBA basketball. If he's not ready, the Suns would be forced to play Voskuhl and small ball.

Some people have said the Suns can find another center by using their mid cap exception. But when I ask who they have in mind, I keep hearing that there aren't any centers out there anyway.

The point behind signing Kobe is to get a shot at winning it all just like adding Barkley almost did. But without the ability to stop opponents, the Suns will not be a playoff teams, let alone a championship contender. I think being able to pay a Brad Miller contract would give the Suns a better chance to get there than to sign a Kobe without the other pieces.

I say all this while assuming Kobe would turn into a great team player and lockerroom leader.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't think getting a player like Kobe is bad for the team but this team has a gaping hole at center and Kobe is not going to make it go away. Of course, the Bulls proved you don't absolutely need to have a good center but it takes a tremendous amount of talent elsewhere to make up for it.

For a while I thought that with Marbs, Marion, JJ and Stoudemire Voskuhl might be enough if he developed some sort of a passable jump shot out to 15-17 feet - and, of course, assuming JJ and Amare fulfilled most of their potential. Well, Jake hasn't shown a glimmer of a jump shot. Besides that he's committing as many stupid fouls as ever. (Jahidi isn't cut out for the high post so he'll never be able to keep his man from doubling Amare as needed.)

To me the bottom line is that the team needs to spend some money to fix the center position and getting Kobe rules that out. The sad thing is that there isn't a decent center FA next summer and with their usual blind spot regarding centers the Colangeli missed the chance to try for Brad Miller last year. The year before they passed on Gadzuric to take Casey Jacobson. Maybe they could still 'finesse' him or Diop from Cleveland or the young center Philly has. None of them is proven quantity but if they were you could forget getting them until they were FAs. I suppose Mihm is in the same category and there may be some others.

We can hope that Lampe will fill the bill but he's probably two plus years away from the point you can even tell whether he's got what it takes. Another two years after that to develope so he's outside the window of opportunity Kobe might give us. In that time frame theres a better chance that Amare, Z, and Shawn will beome a viable frontcourt.

 

[Errntknght]

Sheesh, George O', I missed your post completely... oh well, it's such a good point it bears repeating!!

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Errntknght
To me the bottom line is that the team needs to spend some money to fix the center position and getting Kobe rules that out. The sad thing is that there isn't a decent center FA next summer and with their usual blind spot regarding centers the Colangeli missed the chance to try for Brad Miller last year. The year before they passed on Gadzuric to take Casey Jacobson. Maybe they could still 'finesse' him or Diop from Cleveland or the young center Philly has. None of them is proven quantity but if they were you could forget getting them until they were FAs. I suppose Mihm is in the same category and there may be some others.

We can hope that Lampe will fill the bill but he's probably two plus years away from the point you can even tell whether he's got what it takes. Another two years after that to develope so he's outside the window of opportunity Kobe might give us. In that time frame theres a better chance that Amare, Z, and Shawn will beome a viable frontcourt.

Forget about, i.e. trade away, Shawn, you have enough cap to sign a Brad Miller caliber center to play with Kobe and Amare. This will give you a much better chance than a team based on Amare, Shawn and whoever got the other max contract for the Suns who is not Shaq or Duncan!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

And who is this magical FA center with Brad Miller's skills????

Your plans sound nice, and would work well, however you need to come back to reality and realize there isn't a great FA pool. We missed it by a summer.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
In my case, I'm not interested in seeing the team that I've rooted so long for--and which has been nursed so carefully to get to this point--suddenly transformed into the "supporting cast" (wink wink, nudge nudge) for this would-be GOAT who happens to be a complete @#$hole, and the second-most-self-centered great player in NBA history.

Pssst. Just wanted to tell you, our entire team is nothing but a supporting cast. It's no wonder we're losing.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Pssst. Just wanted to tell you, our entire team is nothing but a supporting cast. It's no wonder we're losing.

Wow, you really have given up on Amare.

I think he'll be a better Karl Malone, without the dirty play or the inability to come through in the clutch. That doesn't seem like a "supporting cast" member to me.



Even if the team is nothing but "supporting cast" (which I obviously dispute), I would rather they were the "supporting cast" for a player from this year's draft, or the next year's, etc.

I'm willing to wait an extra five years for another chance at the championship, if that means the Suns are doing it with players that I can stand to root for.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog

I'm willing to wait an extra five years for another chance at the championship, if that means the Suns are doing it with players that I can stand to root for.

But you're willing to bet that Amare Stoudemire alone, assuming he will be a superstar will be able to get us a championship.

And that simply is wrong. Amare probably will be superstar, but he alone won't be able to carry the Phoenix Suns to a championship.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog


Even if the team is nothing but "supporting cast" (which I obviously dispute), I would rather they were the "supporting cast" for a player from this year's draft, or the next year's, etc.

Who on the Suns RIGHT NOW is more than that? Shawn Marion? He's clearly our best player, but most agree that he is a complimentary player, not a primary one.

 

[Chaz]

This really is a fresh start.

Once Googs is gone the Suns will have completely turned over the roster starting with Marion.

 

[Chaplin]

Like many have said, we need to have a plan and stick to it.

Many on this board are perfectly happy with what we have, and are willing to wait 5 years for it to come to fruition.

I, however, am not one of those people. I thought we had a pretty good plan about 3 months ago, we had a nice core with good secondary players. We weren't playing well, that was a given, but we were suffering with injuries to two of our top 7 players and a coaching change.

That said, I still don't like the trade. But the fact of the matter is that it happened. And though I like every player on our team and what they bring, I think if THIS is their plan, it's not a very good one. I want Amare to become the star we all think he'll be, but again, and I can't stress this enough, he's not going to be able to do it by himself. Shawn will help, but we need someone in the backcourt to stabilize this team on the floor. Plain and simple.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
But you're willing to bet that Amare Stoudemire alone, assuming he will be a superstar will be able to get us a championship.

And that simply is wrong. Amare probably will be superstar, but he alone won't be able to carry the Phoenix Suns to a championship.

I think you're the one assuming here. You assume that the Suns won't ever be able to acquire a second superstar--not through the draft, or in free agency, or through a trade--if they don't get Kobe Bryant right now.

To me, the Suns are beautifully positioned to exploit the draft in particular; as the prospects get more and more obscure, teams that can recognize and aggressively pursue talent have more and more of an advantage. Of course, the Suns are also in a great position to trade some of their many prospects for a disgruntled superstar, and they'll be able to clear cap room to go after a max free agent in 2005 and 2006 if they don't sign a major FA in 2004.


Most teams' executives wince with envy when they look at the Suns right now.


What I'm looking for from the Suns is progress, and that wasn't happening, before or after the injuries and the coaching change. The trade was an extreme response IMO, but at least this way the team is able to redefine the remaining players' roles to give them room to grow and improve, if they can.

I'm already willing for the team to stick with that plan for a while.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Shawn will help, but we need someone in the backcourt to stabilize this team on the floor. Plain and simple.

This is true. I think that our back court has really struggled without Marbury. I am hoping that we get a good point guard soon. Or I hope that Barbosa learns how to run a team really fast. But like I have pointed out ad nausium in other threads. I don't want Kobe.

 

[cly2tw]

I'd be pissed if the Colis didn't try to move Marion's contract after they moved Marbury's, to have a really fresh start.

In fact, imagine what if they just dumped Marion's contract for nothing. They'd be able to sign a Brad Miller caliber center (trading White's final year + pick in sign and trade e.g.) with that money plus a Jim Jackson, D. Marshall kind of vet SF. Or even without the new vet SF, Penny could start at the SF as he does it for NY.

A Marbury/Amare/B.Miller core plus the projects in Zarko, Barbosa will be a contender in 2 years, plus couple of MLE players! The problem with many posters idea of Kobe-signing being incompatible with signing a good center lies on the assumption that this team NEEDS Marion and his contract!

 

[George O'Brien]

Every year there are trades where the team that gets the best deal is the one with cap space. It is hard to plan for a "smoking deal" but they will get a lot of offers.

One final (yeah right) summary of my concern about the quest to get Kobe.

1. The Suns are at least $5 million short of being able to give a serious offer.

2. Anyone drafted in this summer's draft counts against the Cap BEFORE the Suns are even allowed to negotiate with Kobe. Two lottery picks could chew up another $4 - 5 million. The Suns cannot afford to draft people if they want to sign Kobe.

3. In order to off load either White or Easley, the Suns would have to give up at least one of the picks.

4. After signing Kobe, the Suns would be permanently over the cap and all future acquisitions would require trading low priced rookies or settling for mid cap people.

5. If the Suns trade away White (for cap space) and cannot use the two lottery picks to get a shot at a big man, the Suns would start next season with Voskuhl and Lampe (who has yet to get into an NBA game). The most they could offer in the future would be mid cap for a center.

I think the Suns COULD find a center over the next two years if they have some cap space to work with. If they wait until 2005 when White comes off cap, they would have more buying power. (Kobe could choose to stay with the Lakers for another year, so it might work out anyway without giving up the draft picks).

Who knows, maybe one of their draft picks could be the answer. I'd hate to pass up the draft this year on the outside chance that Kobe MIGHT say "yes".