Gameday Thread: Suns @ Lakers 11-6-2016

leclerc

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The Watson hate. . . wow.


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It should be allowed to be critical without calling it hate.

Seems so obvious to give the rooks another chance since most of us remember how well they did in a similar situation on the season opener.

Personally I'm okay with Watson so far. It's just that I'm seeing the same pattern as sunsfan88 was describing where mediocre vets are getting us nowhere while our young players are not getting valuable experience.

This also was the case with previous coaches. I mean in other clubs I have seen kids get PT even outside of garbage time. Why not in Phoenix?

Just disappointed because they saw the floor in game 1 and performed well but that was not rewarded at all.
 
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hcsilla

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He was nothing special and he's shown literally nothing so far.

You look at the Lakers and they have prob comparable talent to us... but another super young HC who actually looks like he has a SYSTEM and the team actually looks like a TEAM.

We look like a pickup basketball team with talent. Anyone can do the job Watson's doing.

Can you tell me anything, any change, any aspect of the team that's good and say that's on Watson?

Not only that but I honestly don't see what is the plan except Warren's transition baskets, Booker's straight drives after hesitation moves and some lobs to Chandler.

I have no regret at all that we gave up the 2 PG's system but our new identity seems that we don't have one.
 

leclerc

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Hopefully the new system will be more apparent after another month.

Not starting Knight as a dual PG is the best thing that happened this year outside of that amazing draft of pine riders.
 

sunsfan88

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It should be allowed to be critical without calling it hate.

Seems so obvious to give the rooks another chance since most of us remember how well they did in a similar situation on the season opener.
Its a part of this new generation where everyone is baby'd and soft. A parent takes away a kid's phone because of low grades and now the parent is "hating" on the kid. A cop pulls someone for speeding 20 miles over the speed limit and the cop's a "hater". You criticize a basketball coach for his rotations that are not working and its labeled "hate".

Unfortunately this is the future. Wouldn't surprise me if Donald Trump makes the claim tomorrow night that the election was rigged because the government and Republicans "hate" him.

If you don't agree with someone, there's no such thing called disagree anymore...its hate. Those random surveys in which they ask you if you agree with a statement or not, the options should now be "agree/hate" rather "agree/disagree" to reflect today's society.

Sorry to go on this rant about the term "hate" and JC please don't feel this is intended just at you, most people I interact with on a daily basis whether its new or old faces are all part of this trend.

I do agree that it worked in the season opener and yet Watson is still too stubborn to see it.
 

sunsfan88

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He was nothing special and he's shown literally nothing so far.

You look at the Lakers and they have prob comparable talent to us... but another super young HC who actually looks like he has a SYSTEM and the team actually looks like a TEAM.

We look like a pickup basketball team with talent. Anyone can do the job Watson's doing.

Can you tell me anything, any change, any aspect of the team that's good and say that's on Watson?
Arizona Sports actually had a good article on this

Evolution occurs organically.

A biologist probably would read that sentence and think it’s redundant if not stupid, but when it comes to sports, the point is that a team’s flaws lead the charge when it comes to its identity changing. For example, injuries to Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight led to the rise of Suns guard Devin Booker.

Booker and the Suns have taken another step down the evolutionary road this season under first-year coach Earl Watson. T.J. Warren’s emergence alongside Booker is as important as Booker’s own improvements.

Need proof this is Booker’s and Warren’s team and no longer defined by point guards Bledsoe and Knight? In Phoenix’s 119-108 loss to the Los Angeles Lakers on Sunday, the wing duo took 49-of-91 field goal attempts, or 54 percent of the team’s shots.

But through just seven games in 2016-17, Booker and Warren’s success comes as a result of serious flaws for the Suns.

1. Rotation inconsistencies

Sunday night was a poor one for the Phoenix second unit, especially in context of where the Suns’ bench roles have been going since Watson’s announcement after an opening night blowout that the young players would play.

Knight, the man Watson called the most important player on the team, played 17 minutes, going 1-for-8 with four assists, a turnover and three personal fouls. Aside from Alex Len, the entire bench unit looked fairly untrustworthy enough for Watson to cut their minutes.

But on a team constructed and expected to lose its fair share of games, Watson put the extra minutes on his starters rather than on the young player who in brief stints have played with gusto, if not outright success.

The result: Booker played 45 minutes, lost his legs on offense late, and the Suns still lost. Warren played 39 minutes.

The lack of trust is concerning beyond Knight’s ongoing acclimation to the sixth man role.

It’s representative of missed opportunities to develop Tyler Ulis, Marquese Chriss and Dragan Bender, who also each bring a change-of-pace skill. The bench veterans like Knight, P.J. Tucker and Len don’t especially bring much different than their starting counterparts Bledsoe, Jared Dudley and Tyson Chandler.

2. Unbalanced offense

It’s exciting that Booker and Warren are excelling with expanded roles.

Booker (44 percent shooting, 32 percent from three) and Warren (46 percent and 40 percent from three) have also been efficient despite having to carve out their own shots too much.

Watson expected the Suns to run more motion plays and fewer pick-and-rolls. But while there has been less Bledsoe and Knight over-dribbling in pick-and-rolls, the lost possessions there have only turned into more onus on Booker and Warren to carry the scoring weight.

Phoenix is ninth in the NBA in isolation play frequency and 10th-worst in points per possession of ISO plays. As far as spot-up shooting goes, the Suns have the fifth-lowest rate of taking spot-up shots at 14.5 percent of their plays, well below league-leader Brooklyn at 25.7 percent.

They could take more, but it’s a matter of whether the Suns have the shooters to take advantage.

Even Warren could be set up better. Not a noted shooter, he is sixth in the entire NBA by scoring 1.29 points per 24 possessions of spot-ups.

http://arizonasports.com/story/891657/rise-devin-booker-t-j-warren-suns-flaws/
Even the Nets HC Kenny Atkinson who came from the Budenholzer coaching tree of no stupid iso plays and rely on ball movement leading to spot up shots ability is doing a better job with a WAAAAAYY less talented roster in the Brooklyn Nets.

I really want Watson to prove me wrong. Its still somewhat early even though he does now have like 40 games worth of HC experience which again is about the same or less than what guys like Walton or Atkinson have.

He needs to quit preaching philosophy and start focusing on the playbook. Basketball isn't about trying to be everyone's best friend or father, at some point there has to some sort of a system in place here.
 

leclerc

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But I thought the millenials needed a friend..?
 

slinslin

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The hate on Watson by cheesebeef is utterly ridiculous. Watson was pegged by many NBA decision makers as one of the next great head coaches.

We improved miles under Watson and comparing us to the Lakers right now is a joke. We are 7 games into the season and we had a tough schedule with our bench struggling while the Lakers get the most bench scoring right now in the entire NBA.

Hardly Watsons fault that veterans like Knight, Dudley, Barbosa and Tucker are not helping the team win right now.

Under Hornacek we were struggling to even score 80 points every other night.
 

3rdside

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It's not just cheesebeef bro, singling him out sounds pretty aggro - there's no need for that. (says I who told a gun nut on the p and r board to go fck himself earning me a ban...whaaaat, I'm learning!)


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elindholm

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The hate on Watson by cheesebeef is utterly ridiculous. Watson was pegged by many NBA decision makers as one of the next great head coaches.

Yes, and Mark Jackson before him. The "NBA decision makers," just like any other talking heads, grab onto a narrative and run with it. Having 20 people say it instead of 2 doesn't make it any more legitimate.

Hardly Watsons fault that veterans like Knight, Dudley, Barbosa and Tucker are not helping the team win right now.

Yes it is. The offense is completely uncoordinated and aimless. What did they work on during training camp? What differences are there between this team at the end of last year and the beginning of this one, other than some minor personnel changes and Warren's improvement?

Under Hornacek we were struggling to even score 80 points every other night.

For a time, the defensive accountability under Hornacek was impressive. It didn't last, but it was still much better than anything we've seen from Watson.
 

Chaplin

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Its a part of this new generation where everyone is baby'd and soft. A parent takes away a kid's phone because of low grades and now the parent is "hating" on the kid. A cop pulls someone for speeding 20 miles over the speed limit and the cop's a "hater". You criticize a basketball coach for his rotations that are not working and its labeled "hate".

Unfortunately this is the future. Wouldn't surprise me if Donald Trump makes the claim tomorrow night that the election was rigged because the government and Republicans "hate" him.

If you don't agree with someone, there's no such thing called disagree anymore...its hate. Those random surveys in which they ask you if you agree with a statement or not, the options should now be "agree/hate" rather "agree/disagree" to reflect today's society.

Sorry to go on this rant about the term "hate" and JC please don't feel this is intended just at you, most people I interact with on a daily basis whether its new or old faces are all part of this trend.

I do agree that it worked in the season opener and yet Watson is still too stubborn to see it.
This coming from the guy who is the quickest to hate on players/coaches.
 

Chaplin

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Yes it is. The offense is completely uncoordinated and aimless. What did they work on during training camp? What differences are there between this team at the end of last year and the beginning of this one, other than some minor personnel changes and Warren's improvement?
Marginalize much? Warren's "improvement" isn't just improvement. It's actually PLAYING.
 

elindholm

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Marginalize much? Warren's "improvement" isn't just improvement. It's actually PLAYING.

He's playing more now than he played last year, and also playing better.

But that has nothing to do with the point. This team looks clueless and it's because they are. Some of the players, with Tucker and Knight leading the way, can't be anything but clueless. But the rest of the roster really should be capable of better. It's not about the wins and losses.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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LOL. People will find any excuse to call Watson a poor coach...
I think you got it backwards. I think he was saying the flitting up and down the sidelines is a sign of a bad coach. I somewhat agree. Good coaches exude confidence. And it trickles down to their teams. Thus when they get upset people (refs and players) listen. Pop is like that. So was Phil. Refs didn't listen to Dantoni because he was going nuts the whole game.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The hate on Watson by cheesebeef is utterly ridiculous. Watson was pegged by many NBA decision makers as one of the next great head coaches.

We improved miles under Watson and comparing us to the Lakers right now is a joke. We are 7 games into the season and we had a tough schedule with our bench struggling while the Lakers get the most bench scoring right now in the entire NBA.

Hardly Watsons fault that veterans like Knight, Dudley, Barbosa and Tucker are not helping the team win right now.

Under Hornacek we were struggling to even score 80 points every other night.

It is the coach's job to put in place a system that leads to success. It is the players job to effectively implement the system. If there is failure it is likely shared. This is proven by the point that these players fared better under other coaches. Which leads to a legitimate conclusion that Watson's "system" (which as of today I could not describe) is failing to maximize the players' abilities. If it were just one, okay player failure. But when there's a collection of failure it leads to the coach.
 

Chaplin

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Let's just get to the big question: How many of you are advocating the firing of Watson right now? Seems like at least a few are considering it.
 

3rdside

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Well I'd start with firing Sarver if I could, mcd as my second choice, but if we're talking realms of possible then I'd fire Watson - worst opening night loss in history was enough for me - except for the fact that he'll get us a ton more ping pong balls.

So fire him after one season, so long as he plays the rooks, but if he doesn't even do that then fire him yesterday.


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JCSunsfan

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Let's just get to the big question: How many of you are advocating the firing of Watson right now? Seems like at least a few are considering it.
Lets just have a constantly revolving door. That will be the path to greatness and stability. The SacKings model...that's the ticket.
 

elindholm

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Let's just get to the big question: How many of you are advocating the firing of Watson right now? Seems like at least a few are considering it.

No, of course not; might as well hope that he can learn on the job. Having a bunch of "analysts" call you the Next Great Coach doesn't train you for the position. Actually doing it does. So he sure isn't ready now, but maybe he'll get better.

Waiving Tucker would be a big step in the right direction. This is the last year of his contract, and it's for only $5.3 million. It's a small loss. He's not helping the team win, he's taking minutes away from other players, he isn't part of the future, he makes the same mistakes over and over, and he's a lousy citizen and role model. He needs to go, absolutely as quickly as possible.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm not advocating firing him. The players seem to like him, so if he can get everyone to kumbaya this year compared to past messes, and lose whilst doing so, he did the job this year.

If, in so doing, he learns enough to be an effective X's and O's guy who implements a system wherein everyone knows their roles, buys-in, it maximizes (and even magnifies) each players' abilities, and leads to success, great! Keep him! If not, draft another stud and bring in a guy like Collins that excels in young player development for a year or two.

I think most of us just aren't seeing anything in terms of X and O (albeit it is VERY early in this young season).
 

sunsfan88

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This coming from the guy who is the quickest to hate on players/coaches.
First of thanks for once again proving my point about everyone so quick to use the term "hate".

And secondly, yeah because I was so wrong about saying Hornacek would not work out for us. He sure proved me wrong. Or remember when I "hated" the Brandon Knight trade the day it happened? Yea at least Knight has secured his place in the Suns Ring of Honor since coming here.

And to whoever said that we shouldn't have a revolving door at HC, well it's about getting it right. The Lakers went through Mike Brown, then Mike D'Antoni and then Byron Scott before finally finding the right guy in Luke Walton. I think the Lakers are still even paying all those former coaches. You think the Lakers regret firing those HCs though? Heck no.

Like I said multiple times earlier, it's too early to say Watson should be fired because we have to see if he learns on the job. Does he stay stubborn to playing guys like Brandon Knight/PJ Tucker while no minutes for the 3 rookies that the Suns worked hard to suck for and get from last season? Or does he start playing them and slowly decrease the minutes for guys like Knight/Barbosa/Tucker? Too much to be seen. But this immediate defense of Earl Watson when even the slightest criticism is thrown his way is rather interesting.
 

Cheesebeef

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The hate on Watson by cheesebeef is utterly ridiculous. Watson was pegged by many NBA decision makers as one of the next great head coaches.

We improved miles under Watson and comparing us to the Lakers right now is a joke. We are 7 games into the season and we had a tough schedule with our bench struggling while the Lakers get the most bench scoring right now in the entire NBA.

Hardly Watsons fault that veterans like Knight, Dudley, Barbosa and Tucker are not helping the team win right now.

Under Hornacek we were struggling to even score 80 points every other night.

Horny sucked as well.

And Watson being pegged by "many NBA decision makers to be one of the next GREAT head coaches" is about as likely as Magic Johnson being pegged as a PG by the same people.
 

Cheesebeef

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Let's just get to the big question: How many of you are advocating the firing of Watson right now? Seems like at least a few are considering it.

I'm not. I just think he's nothing special and to be honest, I think it was ridiculous we didn't even interview anyone else for the job and said so at the time.
 

GatorAZ

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Watson is a young guy who's ultra positive so the players love him. I remember something about them going to McD last year saying that he should remain the coach. Tyson Chandler was on ESPN telling Dan Le Batard that Watson will eventually be a top-5 coach. After Hornacek's boring demeanor they probably thought it was a great change of culture. Whether or not he can actually coach is TBD. I'm more interested in playing the young guys and getting another top-5 pick.
 

Phrazbit

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But this immediate defense of Earl Watson when even the slightest criticism is thrown his way is rather interesting.

lol, "slightest" criticism? In this thread alone you said Watson is "horrible", is "a coward", and is an "idiot". Then you proceed to get all worked up when people ask "Whats with the Watson hate?"

Hilarious.

Your glass house has a lot of holes in it.
 

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