Giannis vs Ayton / Middleton vs Bridges

[82CardsGrad]

And their games are just different. I don’t ever expect Ayton to initiate the offense at the top of the key and drive the ball. And needn’t do so in order to become a dominant force offensively.

Agree...

To be clear for all who have chimed in on this thread, the point of this post was to merely illustrate the stats of players many on this board have been tossing up in a comparative manner, saying "I would trade Middleton for Bridges," "Ayton is so soft compared to Giannis," "Middleton is so much more reliable than Bridges," etc... illustrating the stats of Giannis and Middleton when they were at the same age of Ayton and Bridges today.
If you were to compare the stats of Giannis and Middleton in their 3rd years in the league, those stats point even more favorably in the direction of Ayton and Bridges. In other words, both Giannis and Middleton showed substantial improvement after their 3rd year.

While it might appear that both Ayton and Bridges might not possess as much upside as Giannis and Middleton showed in their 3rd seasons, IMHO, both have shown more than enough potential to suggest there is much better to come in the years ahead. Dunno precisely what that will look like - and neither do any of you. But I do feel quite confident that both of them, along with Cam Johnson, will show meaningful, important develop over the next 2-3 years and beyond. And, having gone through the fire of a post season where they reached a Game 6 of the Finals (something Giannis and Middleton hadn't experienced), this experience will act as a powerful boost to their coming development.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

A team full of Bridges would tie a team full of Middletons.

I doubt that.

 

[ajcardfan]

Reality post playoffs....

We caught a perfect storm of major injuries to each one of our playoff opponents. We were getting beat up by the Lakers and AD went down. The Nuggets didn't have Murray and the Clippers didn't have Leonard. IMO, we definitely lose to the Clippers and most likely to the Nuggets.

Before the series, it looked like Giannis wouldn't play. We lost the series when he stepped on the court game 1.

We certainly don't suck. We lost 3 close games. But we had to, for the first time, matchup with a full strength elite NBA team.

Of course Giannis and Middleton and better players than Ayton and Bridges. Right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the Middleton and Bridges comparison has the potential to be a good one.

I see no reason Mikal cant become a very similar player.

Ayton vs Giannis - don't see that one. Ayton is just 20 times more passive than Giannis, and I don't see that changing.

He can but right now he has no game at all off the bounce. More than one dribble and if it's not a dunk or layup he's not scoring. Middleton is no Kyrie off the bounce but he's very good at getting to his spot rising and hitting the midrange off teh bounce.

 

[Mainstreet]

I just happened to be thinking about Khris Middleton and Mikal Bridges at the same stage of their 3-year career and it's remarkably similar. See link below.

Does this give us a clue how much Mikal Bridges should be paid?

After two seasons Middleton earned a 5-year $70 million contract and later on inked a a 5-year, $177.5 million contract.

Versus Finder | Player and Team Comparison and Head-to-Head Stats - Pro Basketball | Stathead.com

Versus Finder is a comparison tool by Stathead.com that lets you compare players and teams across basketball. If you're looking for head-to-head comparisons, the Versus Finder is your go-to tool

stathead.com

 

[Cheesebeef]

I just happened to be thinking about Khris Middleton and Mikal Bridges at the same stage of their 3-year career and it's remarkably similar. See link below.

Does this give us a clue how much Mikal Bridges should be paid?

After two seasons Middleton earned a 5-year $70 million contract and later on inked a a 5-year, $177.5 million contract.

Versus Finder | Player and Team Comparison and Head-to-Head Stats - Pro Basketball | Stathead.com

Versus Finder is a comparison tool by Stathead.com that lets you compare players and teams across basketball. If you're looking for head-to-head comparisons, the Versus Finder is your go-to tool

stathead.com

i think you have to count a little for inflation. 5 years 80 million sounds reasonable to me. Maybe 85 million.

 

[Mainstreet]

i think you have to count a little for inflation. 5 years 80 million sounds reasonable to me. Maybe 85 million.

I've seen a lot of 4-year estimates on Bridges ranging up to 4/$100 million.

I'm thinking a 5-year contract would have to be for the maximum?

A 4-year $88 million contract sounds close. Then a player option in the final year plays into the equation which could effect final price.

 

[Hoop Head]

We can only offer 5 years with a max salary otherwise 4 years is the longest contract we can offer. 4 years/80 million is fair. I'd be surprised if its higher than that given how well JJ has handled negotiations thus far.

 

[Hoop Head]

I've seen a lot of 4-year estimates on Bridges ranging up to 4/$100 million.

I'm thinking a 5-year contract would have to be for the maximum?

A 4-year $88 million contract sounds close. Then a player option in the final year plays into the equation which could effect final price.

Are you suggesting we give Mikal an out after 3 years? I'd rather overpay a little than allow him a player option.

I've seen a player or team option suggested in an Ayton max and I can agree with that. Especially if we had the option for year 5 at max money. That could help us.

 

[Mainstreet]

Some spontaneous thoughts about extensions for Deandre Ayton and Mikal Bridges.

I think the Suns are in the position where they almost have to give Deandre Ayton a 5-year max extension which I understand is worth about $168 million. He is the #1 overall first round pick in the 2018 draft and in this market I think he is worth it.

Luka Doncic, Trae Young and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander have all received max extensions.

I'm less sure about how much to pay Mikal Bridges but he is a must signing as well. If the Suns can sign him for something like a 4 year extension at $88 million I'd probably go that high without a player option. Hopefully it will be less.

I guess the Suns could wait until Bridges is a RFA but I think they are likely to get a better deal on him now. Something like 4 years/$80 million would be a sweet deal.

 

[Covert Rain]

Some spontaneous thoughts about extensions for Deandre Ayton and Mikal Bridges.

I think the Suns are in the position where they almost have to give Deandre Ayton a 5-year max extension which I understand is worth about $168 million. He is the #1 overall first round pick in the 2018 draft and in this market I think he is worth it.

Luka Doncic, Trae Young and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander have all received max extensions.

I'm less sure about how much to pay Mikal Bridges but he is a must signing as well. If the Suns can sign him for something like a 4 year extension at $88 million I'd probably go that high without a player option. Hopefully it will be less.

I guess the Suns could wait until Bridges is a RFA but I think they are likely to get a better deal on him now. Something like 4 years/$80 million would be a sweet deal.

In this market after his playoffs? Ayton is getting a MAX deal. If not by the Suns then by someone else. That is the market for someone who played like he did in the playoffs. Bridges is an important cog on a winning team so if you want those types of players you have to pay. The Suns just have to decide if they want to be perennial winners or a turn style for talent that goes elsewhere contently in either rebuild or retool mode. The team has enough core talent to keep retooling for the near future and keep making runs.

 

[Mainstreet]

Here is a compilation of defensive plays by Mikal Bridges this past season. It's worth the look.

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[Mainstreet]

I think Mikal Bridges is starting to realize how good he is athletically and applying it in game action. Those steals and blocks are amazing not to mention how good he is at finishing plays. Also he seems to be dunking more than ever before and with such ease.

 

[Phrazbit]

we really didn’t handle the pressure well in three fourth quarters of tight games.

Yeah. As much as we talk about small ball and injuries and Scott Foster... when it comes down to it, in games 4 and 5 we had the ball in the final minute with a chance to go ahead and on both occasions we dribbled into traffic and lost the ball. Our ball movement offense went out the window and we tightened up. It's no knock on the incredible run we had, but we needed to execute better in the final moments.

 

[1Sun]

Yeah. As much as we talk about small ball and injuries and Scott Foster... when it comes down to it, in games 4 and 5 we had the ball in the final minute with a chance to go ahead and on both occasions we dribbled into traffic and lost the ball. Our ball movement offense went out the window and we tightened up. It's no knock on the incredible run we had, but we needed to execute better in the final moments.

Don't you think having an inside player other than Ayton would have helped in those situations (or perhaps even helped the Suns avoid those situations in the first place)?

Put Bobby Portis on the Suns rather than the Bucks, and the Suns win that series in 5, maybe even 4.

 

[Phrazbit]

Don't you think having an inside player other than Ayton would have helped in those situations (or perhaps even helped the Suns avoid those situations in the first place)?

Put Bobby Portis on the Suns rather than the Bucks, and the Suns win that series in 5, maybe even 4.

I think one of the biggest factors in our favor was our ability to spread the court. Another true interior player and it negates half of what Paul and Booker do with their penetration game. Put Portis out there instead of Crowder and we are almost certainly a WORSE team.

It would have been nice of Saric hadn't blown out his knee and if Patrick Beverly hadn't attempted to murder our back court. But in your world those injuries don't matter while Will Barton missing one of the 4 games in our sweep of Denver totally invalidates our victory.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think one of the biggest factors in our favor was our ability to spread the court. Another true interior player and it negates half of what Paul and Booker do with their penetration game. Put Portis out there instead of Crowder and we are almost certainly a WORSE team.

It would have been nice of Saric hadn't blown out his knee and if Patrick Beverly hadn't attempted to murder our back court. But in your world those injuries don't matter while Will Barton missing one of the 4 games in our sweep of Denver totally invalidates our victory.

There were long stretches where we shot jumper after jumper after jumper. One of the best weapons we have is our guards going to the free throw line. They MUST be able to drive and pick up fouls to get to the line. They took that away from us and it hurt big time. Especially, when the clock was an issue.

 

[1Sun]

There were long stretches where we shot jumper after jumper after jumper. One of the best weapons we have is our guards going to the free throw line. They MUST be able to drive and pick up fouls to get to the line. They took that away from us and it hurt big time. Especially, when the clock was an issue.

And THAT is why we need another inside scorer...so we aren't so dependent on jump shots, particularly where the only real slashers we have are Booker and Nader.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think one of the biggest factors in our favor was our ability to spread the court. Another true interior player and it negates half of what Paul and Booker do with their penetration game. Put Portis out there instead of Crowder and we are almost certainly a WORSE team.

It would have been nice of Saric hadn't blown out his knee and if Patrick Beverly hadn't attempted to murder our back court. But in your world those injuries don't matter while Will Barton missing one of the 4 games in our sweep of Denver totally invalidates our victory.

BUT! Power Forward.

 

[Covert Rain]

BUT! Power Forward.

How does that invalidate the need for PF exactly? I mean there is zero doubt in my mind had we had a higher impact PF coming off the bench or even two way player that could play PF/C I have zero doubt we stand a better chance against the Bucks. It in a couple games would have allowed Crowder or Ayton to go to the bench and prevented the Bucks from keying on our guards all the time or playing the shooters.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think one of the biggest factors in our favor was our ability to spread the court. Another true interior player and it negates half of what Paul and Booker do with their penetration game. Put Portis out there instead of Crowder and we are almost certainly a WORSE team.

It would have been nice of Saric hadn't blown out his knee and if Patrick Beverly hadn't attempted to murder our back court. But in your world those injuries don't matter while Will Barton missing one of the 4 games in our sweep of Denver totally invalidates our victory.

I don't think you are giving Bobby Portis the credit he deserves. He shot .471 from 3-point range this past season and thus far is a better career career 3-point shooter.

Additionally Portis is a better career rebounder than Jae Crowder.

Also might check out his PER this past season.

Bobby Portis Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Bobby Portis. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Bobby Portis - Milwaukee Bucks Forward - ESPN

View the profile of Milwaukee Bucks Forward Bobby Portis on ESPN. Get the latest news, live stats and game highlights.

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Jae Crowder Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Jae Crowder. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Jae Crowder - Milwaukee Bucks Power Forward - ESPN

View the profile of Milwaukee Bucks Power Forward Jae Crowder on ESPN. Get the latest news, live stats and game highlights.

www.espn.com

 

[Krangodnzr]

How does that invalidate the need for PF exactly? I mean there is zero doubt in my mind had we had a higher impact PF coming off the bench or even two way player that could play PF/C I have zero doubt we stand a better chance against the Bucks. It in a couple games would have allowed Crowder or Ayton to go to the bench and prevented the Bucks from keying on our guards all the time or playing the shooters.

I'm joking.

 

[Chaplin]

How does that invalidate the need for PF exactly? I mean there is zero doubt in my mind had we had a higher impact PF coming off the bench or even two way player that could play PF/C I have zero doubt we stand a better chance against the Bucks. It in a couple games would have allowed Crowder or Ayton to go to the bench and prevented the Bucks from keying on our guards all the time or playing the shooters.

You mean like the guy that is already on the roster but suffered an ACL injury after the series had started?

I'm as critical as Dario as the next guy, but he would have given us a better chance in that series. Just bad luck is all.

 

[1Sun]

You mean like the guy that is already on the roster but suffered an ACL injury after the series had started?

I'm as critical as Dario as the next guy, but he would have given us a better chance in that series. Just bad luck is all.

He also didn't have the strength or athleticism needed at the position. He would have been better than nothing, but we needed to upgrade from him, not lose him and not bother getting a replacement.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How does that invalidate the need for PF exactly? I mean there is zero doubt in my mind had we had a higher impact PF coming off the bench or even two way player that could play PF/C I have zero doubt we stand a better chance against the Bucks. It in a couple games would have allowed Crowder or Ayton to go to the bench and prevented the Bucks from keying on our guards all the time or playing the shooters.

I think the biggest problem in this conversation isn't that there's two sides to the argument, it's that each side is arguing about a different issue. Yes, a better power forward makes us better, although I'm not sure an additional (slightly above average) power forward has any impact on the final outcome, but many of us don't believe it was what the Bucks did that handcuffed our offense.

I think many of us here believe that it was mostly Booker's hamstring, Payton's sprained ankle and Paul's shoulder, wrist and hand that limited our offense, rather than any changes the Bucks made. And had our three guards still been able to shoot, pass and penetrate effectively, Milwaukee wouldn't have been able to exploit our inability to match-up with Giannis and all their front court bodies.