Gibson

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I was not a fan of Gibson's promotion, but I understood it. I'm very reluctant to give a thumbs up to any full-time status because (a) I like my managers to be former pitchers and catchers and (b) Gibson's entire career was made by his football-inspired aggression.

In the meantime, he has impressed me with his pre-game interviews. He sounds very rational, he's in tune to the players, and hasn't shown he's a maniac. Still not sure about his field decisions. If they do extend him, I'd really love to see them bring in a strong bench coach, a former catcher or pitcher, who can help him manage a game.
 

Lefty

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I think the hiring of Towers all but guarantees that he's gone after this season.

From what Towers said today I think it's not a done deal yet. Looks like he might give Gibson a shot.
 

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Kirk Gibson deserves the chance to work what he's started this season.

It doesn't show in the record but, from everything we read, it shows in the psyche of the team.

I am glad that is the case, because it would have made the D'backs look foolish to make still another managerial change.

At least the experiment with back-to-back introverts is over.
 

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Guess I could be wrong. Still think this team could benefit from a manager from outside the organization much like the GM position (which was filled by Towers). It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
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Love it, but think he needs a new hitting and pitching coach.

Honestly, I think these are two of the most pointless positions in pro sports. Baseball players receive thousands of hours of professional instruction before they get to the pros. When they're off and they don't have the personal drive to fix it, that's an attitude problem, not a technical problem. Occasionally you get one who's just born to do it and catch nuanced problems early, but those guys are rare. I don't think there are 10 hitting/pitching coaches in the MLB who are really earning their money.

If anything, I think we can question the scouting staff, because many times it looked like our pitchers were working off old scouting reports.

On the other side, bench coach is the most overlooked position, because they're often the ones that make the managers look good -- and bad. Good bench coaches are the real brains behind a successful operation ... and only lacking whatever it is managers have that make the team want to rally around them. And sometimes good bench coaches are just good managers in waiting.
 

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Looking at it politically, Gibson is the insurance policy for Towers. If the team performs well then keeping Gibson doesn't hurt Towers credibility, but if the team falters like previous years, Towers can bring in "his own guy" and get a reset.
 

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Honestly, I think these are two of the most pointless positions in pro sports. Baseball players receive thousands of hours of professional instruction before they get to the pros. When they're off and they don't have the personal drive to fix it, that's an attitude problem, not a technical problem. Occasionally you get one who's just born to do it and catch nuanced problems early, but those guys are rare. I don't think there are 10 hitting/pitching coaches in the MLB who are really earning their money.

If anything, I think we can question the scouting staff, because many times it looked like our pitchers were working off old scouting reports.

On the other side, bench coach is the most overlooked position, because they're often the ones that make the managers look good -- and bad. Good bench coaches are the real brains behind a successful operation ... and only lacking whatever it is managers have that make the team want to rally around them. And sometimes good bench coaches are just good managers in waiting.

That is a pretty ignorant view. These guys are just like a finely tuned car. Just a tiny change can drastically alter their performance. And then when they start to press trying to fix things that can only make things work. The main point for a pitching and hitting coach is to have an extra set of eyes on these guys to help detect problems with their wind-up/stance.
 
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That is a pretty ignorant view. These guys are just like a finely tuned car. Just a tiny change can drastically alter their performance. And then when they start to press trying to fix things that can only make things work. The main point for a pitching and hitting coach is to have an extra set of eyes on these guys to help detect problems with their wind-up/stance.

Show me 10 position coaches who earn their money and I'll defer. After Charlie Lau and Leo Mazzone, the names of "great" position coaches in the past are lost on me.

I'd be willing to bet position coaches do as much or more harm than good. Not all tinkering is beneficial or even welcome at the MLB level.
 

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Honestly, I think these are two of the most pointless positions in pro sports. Baseball players receive thousands of hours of professional instruction before they get to the pros. When they're off and they don't have the personal drive to fix it, that's an attitude problem, not a technical problem. Occasionally you get one who's just born to do it and catch nuanced problems early, but those guys are rare. I don't think there are 10 hitting/pitching coaches in the MLB who are really earning their money.

If anything, I think we can question the scouting staff, because many times it looked like our pitchers were working off old scouting reports.

On the other side, bench coach is the most overlooked position, because they're often the ones that make the managers look good -- and bad. Good bench coaches are the real brains behind a successful operation ... and only lacking whatever it is managers have that make the team want to rally around them. And sometimes good bench coaches are just good managers in waiting.


This is the second time you have said as much. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree now. Ever hear of Rudy Jaramillo? Look what he did with the Rangers. Hitting coaches can improve a team or bring it down. Same with pitching coaches. They find flaws and address/fix them. The good ones do anyway, and Jaramillo is living proof.
 
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This is the second time you have said as much. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree now. Ever hear of Rudy Jaramillo? Look what he did with the Rangers. Hitting coaches can improve a team or bring it down. Same with pitching coaches. They find flaws and address/fix them. The good ones do anyway, and Jaramillo is living proof.

Like I said, if you can find one of the small handful that are good at it, good on you. But they're a rare breed, and just because pitching/hitting is awful doesn't mean it automatically falls on the shoulders of the position coach. I think it's a total crap shoot and these days the scouts doing the film work are infinitely more valuable (or more likely to blame for poor performances).
 

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"I'd be willing to bet position coaches do as much or more harm than good. Not all tinkering is beneficial or even welcome at the MLB level."

This is a pretty ridiculous statement and I disagree completely. Even though they're Major league players they're still human and develop bad habits. I'm sure even A-rod and Pujols ask for the coaches to look for stuff while they hit, let alone a rookie or second year guy. And it may not even be necessarily mechanics, the mental side as well. You're severely underestimating how much these guys know and how beneficial having an objective set of eyes is.

Also I'd say they're at least as valuable as having a good manager. The manager isn't out there every day working with guys on their swings, what does he do for a starting pitcher besides tell him what day he's starting? The pitching coach is the one that basically does all the work with the staff with communication and watching them throw the most at least triple what the manager does.
 
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And I think you're underestimating how much work these guys do on their own already. The amount of film work a pitcher does exceeds an NFL coach, both on himself and his opponents.

I'm not saying the positions shouldn't be there. What drives me crazy is when a side is playing bad, people think it's the position coach, when from my perspective these people just don't have 1/10th the impact people think they do. It's not at all like being a coordinator in football where you have a down-to-down impact on each and every game.
 

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I'm not saying the positions shouldn't be there. What drives me crazy is when a side is playing bad, people think it's the position coach, when from my perspective these people just don't have 1/10th the impact people think they do.

This is something I can agree with. I think batting and pitching coaches are some of the voodoo of MLB. What might work with one player or set of players could be a disaster with another. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the coaches do or say, the player doesn't take the advice. These things make it extremely difficult to grade the job.

That any average fan can look at something as objective as on field performance and assume one way or another that these coaches are doing their job well or not is the joke.

I think maybe the reason you have the perspective that there are only a select few that make a difference is that it takes years to determine the impact of a particular hitting or pitching coach on the players and there are only a few who have any sort of record long enough and dramatic enough to see at the distance a fan is from the happenings.
 
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This is something I can agree with. I think batting and pitching coaches are some of the voodoo of MLB. What might work with one player or set of players could be a disaster with another. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the coaches do or say, the player doesn't take the advice. These things make it extremely difficult to grade the job.

That any average fan can look at something as objective as on field performance and assume one way or another that these coaches are doing their job well or not is the joke.

I think maybe the reason you have the perspective that there are only a select few that make a difference is that it takes years to determine the impact of a particular hitting or pitching coach on the players and there are only a few who have any sort of record long enough and dramatic enough to see at the distance a fan is from the happenings.

You summed it up nicely for me. That's my exact perspective. Two thumbs up.
 

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A Pitching coach is no different than any other industry in that they are responsible for post-training and evaluation (regardless of how much or how little experience each pitcher brought to the team).

For example, companies pay Shipping supervisors (who report to the Distribution or Operations Manager) to do just that for order packers day after day.

Is the packer coming to work in a condition to do his best? Is he concentrating? And if not, why not? Is he working efficiently? Is he developing bad habits (which is typical of most people over time)? Is he careful to avoid injury (in this case to the products being packed), leading to costly returns?

Regardless of experience with another company (or team) or how long he or she has been an employee there, you wouldn't let the last set of eyes, who sees each order before it goes out the door to the consumer, to work unsupervised.

As you should not downplay the importance of the Shipping supervisor, you should not downplay the role of the Pitching coach . . . or the bullpen coach either. They are the difference between mediocrity and excellence.

People who haven't worked in management, and perhaps see them as the enemy hulking over employees' shoulders, don't really understand the effect that good management has on the bottom line.

For the record, even with the bad job Josh Byrnes did in stocking the bullpen, I don't think Mel Stottlemyre, Jr., is anything more than a mediocre supervisor. He is not his Dad.

If we had a good one, you'd see the difference. Just as if we had better than a mediocre Batting coach, Mark Reynolds would not be batting .200 He is the only full-time position player in history with his strikeout total higher than his batting average. The only one in history! On a team setting batters' strikeout records.

Another case of an incompetent supervisor (Coach) affecting the bottom line.

Degrading the position will accomplish nothing. Filling it with a talented person will make all the difference.
 

Mulli

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I was not a fan of Gibson's promotion, but I understood it. I'm very reluctant to give a thumbs up to any full-time status because (a) I like my managers to be former pitchers and catchers and (b) Gibson's entire career was made by his football-inspired aggression.

In the meantime, he has impressed me with his pre-game interviews. He sounds very rational, he's in tune to the players, and hasn't shown he's a maniac. Still not sure about his field decisions. If they do extend him, I'd really love to see them bring in a strong bench coach, a former catcher or pitcher, who can help him manage a game.

Football-inspired maniacal aggression.
 

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