Give Amare MAX or let him walk>

[jibikao]

I didn't make an option because I don't mind giving him Max but just not 6 years. 3-4 years then I would pick yes.

 

[Errntknght]

I'd just as soon the Suns didn't give him an offer and leave it on the table... if its close to what he's actually worth someone else will top it. Better to just tell him they will not pay the max for his services and leave the other teams in the dark as to what kind of contract they're willing to compete against.

 

[Irish]

I really hate this poll. It's just another excuse to beat up Amare without defining what an exceptable contract would look like

Is a max contract $90 million, $100 million? $110, $120, $130, or`$140 million? How am I supposed to choose if low end is OK and high end is not?

 

[pokerface]

I really hate this poll. It's just another excuse to beat up Amare without defining what an exceptable contract would look like

Is a max contract $90 million, $100 million? $110, $120, $130, or`$140 million? How am I supposed to choose if low end is OK and high end is not?

I dont care what the max is...he shouldnt get it whatever it is. Besides that, Amare has already expressed he wants max and/or he will go to the highest bidder...unless the Suns match the offer....goody.

 

[cly2tw]

I thought the alternatives were:

1. Contend with Amare signed
2. Rebuild by letting Amare walk

It looks like most fans on this site picks option 2 over option 1.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought the alternatives were:

1. Contend with Amare signed
2. Rebuild by letting Amare walk

It looks like most fans on this site picks option 2 over option 1.

That's not a simplification, it's a complete distortion of the facts. Perhaps you meant something like this.

1. Possibly contend with Amare signed if his bloated contract leaves us enough room to find a missing piece or two and if his health miraculously holds up and if Nash can squeak out another year or two before he completely breaks apart and if Lopez can overcome his back injuries and continue to improve.
2. Rebuild by trading Amare if possible otherwise regrettably let him walk.

Steve

 

[cly2tw]

That's not a simplification, it's a complete distortion of the facts. Perhaps you meant something like this.

1. Possibly contend with Amare signed if his bloated contract leaves us enough room to find a missing piece or two and if his health miraculously holds up and if Nash can squeak out another year or two before he completely breaks apart and if Lopez can overcome his back injuries and continue to improve.
2. Rebuild by trading Amare if possible otherwise regrettably let him walk.

Steve

We fans worry too much about the owners' finance. If retaining Amare implies no way we build a contender, I believe the management would choose the option #2. If they sign Amare, you don't need to worry too much about the follow up plans.

 

[Joe Mama]

That's not a simplification, it's a complete distortion of the facts. Perhaps you meant something like this.

1. Possibly contend with Amare signed if his bloated contract leaves us enough room to find a missing piece or two and if his health miraculously holds up and if Nash can squeak out another year or two before he completely breaks apart and if Lopez can overcome his back injuries and continue to improve.
2. Rebuild by trading Amare if possible otherwise regrettably let him walk.

Steve

I am with you except for all of your worrying about Steve Nash. I can't remember if I posted something about this already or not. I know I've read this from a couple other people. I just don't understand this idea that Steve Nash is going to suddenly drop off. The only evidence I've seen presented so far was that he was inconsistent in the middle of the season when he had a torn stomach muscle or something like that. if he had some off nights because he was injured he must have been amazing the other nights because his stats are just as good or better than they have been the entire time he's been here in Phoenix. Sometimes when I read these posts about how he is certain to fall apart I wonder if I'm on that show Fringe and some people are watching a different Steve Nash in an alternate reality.


Sure, we all know he's a liability on defense. that problem is exacerbated when he is playing with Amare and vice versa. Still, offensively Steve Nash may still be the best point guard in the NBA. He doesn't have an outrageous contract. How many games has he missed since he signed with us? In six seasons he has missed 26 games. Last season he missed just one game. I mean knock on wood for me, but he's one of the last people I worry about on this team, especially with the emergence of Dragic.

Now having said all that I could see the Phoenix Suns struggling for one reason or another this season heading into the trade deadline. I mean the margin of error in the Western Conference is razor thin. I could see management going to him and saying, "we are getting a lot of really good offers for you. We hate to lose you, but do any of these destinations interest you?"

I think it was a couple weeks ago right after the Suns got knocked out that I saw that local guy who now works for ESPN talking about Amare Stoudemire's future with the team. At that time he said that according to his sources management was split on whether they even wanted him back. The way it was said I took it to mean that regardless of whether it was what they have reportedly already offered (contract averaging $18 million) or the maximum the front office was split about whether they even wanted Amare Stoudemire to continue with the Phoenix Suns. Mean we all know the problems with signing him to a maximum contract or anything near it. I don't think anybody believes he is truly a maximum contract player, and a lot of us are worried about his knees and other possible injuries. I mean if he was without a history of knee problems and showing no loss of athleticism I would probably say keep him even at the max. If he was a good defender and had shown me more in the playoffs, especially on the boards I would say sign him to the max even with the history of injuries. But you put the two together, and I just think it's too risky. I think it's too risky with a contract starting at $18 million much less $21 million. I don't think there's a chance in hell they offer him a sixth season, nor should they.

I have read at least one prominent poster here who repeatedly says that if we don't want to Amare Stoudemire down the road we can just trade him. There's a major problem with that logic though. If we don't want him chances are neither does anybody else. If he gets injured again he's unmovable. If his productivity drops off he is virtually unmovable. Unfortunately Isaiah Thomas is out of the league, and I don't think we are allowed to trade him to Central Florida or wherever it is that Thomas coaches now. No, either he'll be playing at a level where we don't want to get rid of him, or we would have to give away the farm to move his contract.

The problem, of course, is how do you find somebody to replace him. I wouldn't touch David Lee for the money he's likely to get. His defense is as bad as Amare's, he's nowhere near the offensive player, and he is smaller than Amare Stoudemire. I would try to bring back Channing Frye and count on him to keep improving. I know he had some rough stretches, but without him this team would not have made the playoffs. Losing both him and Amare would be devastating. I'll be curious to see what other teams offer him.

I agree that Lou is almost certainly gone. Although, if they couldn't get a sign and trade done with Amare Stoudemire there would be room for him as long as he would sign for a reasonable contract. That only works if Earl Clark can consistently knock down jumpers though. The reason he has worked so well here is that all of his teammates are good shooters. I don't think you can play him with another big man who can't consistently knock down an open jump shot.

I know I'm rambling here, but I don't see Barbosa getting traded this summer either. I mean I would never say never, but I just can't imagine a scenario where they could get him moved. I don't think they'll be giving away their draft picks to get things done in the near future. This summer especially when so many teams are trying to shed salary because of the free agent market and the economy I think we are stuck with Barbosa. That doesn't bother me so much. I could see him having a bounce back season. I., along with everyone else, just wish we had that $7 million to play with in free agency.

I think it was slin who mentioned Chandler in another thread. I wonder if there's any way they could get him for a reasonable price on a one-year deal with a player option. It seems to me they could sell him on our medical staff and the chance to play with Steve Nash in a Phoenix Suns system that is sure to increase his value. I'm not sure that would be enough to get him here, but I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibilities. Who else could be that next Phoenix Suns rehab project?

Okay, I think I'm about done here. If anybody actually reads this entire post please tell me if it made sense. There's no way I'm going back to reread it all. I think Amare Stoudemire will walk without needing a sign and trade. I think we should re-sign Channing Frye. I think we all better pray that Earl Clark improves drastically this summer and that Robin Lopez can stay healthy next season.

Joe

 

[AzStevenCal]

if he had some off nights because he was injured he must have been amazing the other nights because his stats are just as good or better than they have been the entire time he's been here in Phoenix.

He was amazing on his good nights. The problem is that his bad nights were more than just a few. Between his stomach tear, his hip problem and his chronic back problem, he was a downright liability for a significant portion of the season. It isn't so much that we can't afford the 20-30 games that he was sub-par; it's the concern that it's a sign of things to come.

I have read at least one prominent poster here who repeatedly says that if we don't want to Amare Stoudemire down the road we can just trade him. There's a major problem with that logic though. If we don't want him chances are neither does anybody else.

I think the only reason this franchise is considering a big deal for the guy is for this very reason. Sign him and in a year or two, when Nash's run is clearly over, move him elsewhere. Without injuries, even playing at his current level, I believe Amare is worth the max under the current CBA. However, we just don't know how the landscape will change once the new CBA is put in place. It really could turn Amare into an anchor that just can't be moved. Once you factor in his injury risks and the fact that he is just barely worth the max, it's just not a smart business decision. Especially in a market such as Phoenix.

I know I'm rambling here, but I don't see Barbosa getting traded this summer either.

I think we could move him this summer but we'd pretty much have to give him away. On the cheap, another team would probably be willing to gamble against his contract that he could return to form. However, if we want to recieve something of value we're going to have to keep him until at least the mid-season trade deadline. BTW, your post made sense.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

He was amazing on his good nights. The problem is that his bad nights were more than just a few. Between his stomach tear, his hip problem and his chronic back problem, he was a downright liability for a significant portion of the season. It isn't so much that we can't afford the 20-30 games that he was sub-par; it's the concern that it's a sign of things to come.

30 games that were "sub-par"? Do you have a list? I mean, sure, if you look at the stats and see he scored 6 points, you can infer he had a bad game. I'd like to know what makes you think so badly of him. I mean, this is the main reason we have been good for 6 years. He had some bad games, sure, but a liability for a "siginificant" portion of the season? That's pretty harsh.

I think the only reason this franchise is considering a big deal for the guy is for this very reason. Sign him and in a year or two, when Nash's run is clearly over, move him elsewhere. Without injuries, even playing at his current level, I believe Amare is worth the max under the current CBA. However, we just don't know how the landscape will change once the new CBA is put in place. It really could turn Amare into an anchor that just can't be moved. Once you factor in his injury risks and the fact that he is just barely worth the max, it's just not a smart business decision. Especially in a market such as Phoenix.

If one of the reasons the Suns won't sign him for a lot of years is because they are leary about the strength of his knees down the road, what makes you think they'd sign him in the hope of trading him later? That doesn't make any sense.

I think we could move him this summer but we'd pretty much have to give him away. On the cheap, another team would probably be willing to gamble against his contract that he could return to form. However, if we want to recieve something of value we're going to have to keep him until at least the mid-season trade deadline. BTW, your post made sense.

Steve

I have a feeling IF LB is traded, it will be more for cap space than for a player in return.

 

[elindholm]

Without injuries, even playing at his current level, I believe Amare is worth the max under the current CBA.

Not his max, no. Can the Magic trade Rashard Lewis, except for more bad contracts? Does anyone want Michael Redd, except as an expiring? Kirilenko? Carter? Brand?

Unloading a huge contract for a non-premium player is extremely difficult. It's like buying a new luxury car: Sure, it's "worth" $50,000 in the sense that that's what other people will pay for it, but as soon as you drive it off the lot, you've taken an instant loss on a depreciating asset.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not his max, no. Can the Magic trade Rashard Lewis, except for more bad contracts? Does anyone want Michael Redd, except as an expiring? Kirilenko? Carter? Brand?

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here. You quote my statement that Amare would be worth the max if he was not an injury risk and if the current CBA were to continue but you don't really address those points.

I don't think Lewis has ever been the player that Amare is. Carter has been worthy of a max contract in the past but probably not the last time he got a big deal. Brand, like Amare, has had multiple injuries and for that reason only is not worth the max (again, like Amare).

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

30 games that were "sub-par"? Do you have a list? I mean, sure, if you look at the stats and see he scored 6 points, you can infer he had a bad game. I'd like to know what makes you think so badly of him. I mean, this is the main reason we have been good for 6 years. He had some bad games, sure, but a liability for a "siginificant" portion of the season? That's pretty harsh.

No, I don't have a list of his bad games. And I didn't mean to imply that he was a liability in all 30 of his sub-par games. I really don't know exactly how many times he actually hurt us more than he helped us (15 games, maybe 20?) but it was certainly more than a handful and IMO it was for a significant portion of the season. The stretch with his stomach tear lasted quite awhile and as I mentioned that was just one of his injury issues. It's possible I've overstated the problem but it's not an intentional exaggeration, it's simply my best guess/recollection.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here. You quote my statement that Amare would be worth the max if he was not an injury risk and if the current CBA were to continue but you don't really address those points.

But he isn't. Scoring 20 points a game is nice, but do you want to pay him a million bucks per point? Considering he can't do anything else except score? How is that work the "max". (And let's all agree that the max number is the maximum dollar amount he can receive from the Suns--it's not worth haggling about what the "max" is to different people--it's still a simple number)

I don't think Lewis has ever been the player that Amare is. Carter has been worthy of a max contract in the past but probably not the last time he got a big deal. Brand, like Amare, has had multiple injuries and for that reason only is not worth the max (again, like Amare).

Agree with you here, but in the long run, none of those players matter. If Amare wants to use the "well, Rashard Lewis got the max, why shouldn't I" reasoning for him getting the max, then fine. Doesn't mean we should give it to him.

He is worth a lot of money, no question, but he's nowhere near worth the true max.

 

[elindholm]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here. You quote my statement that Amare would be worth the max if he was not an injury risk and if the current CBA were to continue but you don't really address those points.

You're right, I was unclear. I was trying to address your claim that (barring further injury) there will always be a market for Stoudemire ("Sign him and ... move him elsewhere"). For all but the very best players in the league, the amount that a team is willing to dole out for a new contract (or extension) exceeds the amount that any other team is willing to pay the player a year or two later.

Realistically, the list of suitors for Stoudemire is short. The Suns sort of want him, and the teams with cap space will consider him as a second option if they fall short of their primary targets. But that leaves probably 75% of the league who really have no interest in him, probably not even for $90M/5yr, and certainly not for a top-five, supermax contract. Whoever gets him now is stuck with him.

 

[devilalum]

The Suns haven't been able to move Amare for anything useful for the last 2 seasons. How is that going to improve if he's in the second year of a $100 million contract?

If the Suns sign Amare he's here for the duration.

Its pretty much universally accepted that teams are lining up for LBJ, Wade and Bosh but I don't think the same is true for Amare. He might get a max deal from a desperate team but the rest of the league is concerned about the same stuff we are.

Is it possible to do a double sign and trade with Dallas for Dirk?

 

[elindholm]

Is it possible to do a double sign and trade with Dallas for Dirk?

It's theoretically possible, but Cuban would never agree to it.

 

[devilalum]

It's theoretically possible, but Cuban would never agree to it.

I'm sure you're right but on paper it does make sense to a certain degree. The Mavs other stars are younger than Dirk. Amare would be a better fit in that way. Cuban has demonstrated that he is willing to spend the money. Amare and Haywood would make a nice tandem.

I'd much rather the Suns give Dirk big money for 4 years than give Amare max for 6.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You're right, I was unclear. I was trying to address your claim that (barring further injury) there will always be a market for Stoudemire ("Sign him and ... move him elsewhere"). For all but the very best players in the league, the amount that a team is willing to dole out for a new contract (or extension) exceeds the amount that any other team is willing to pay the player a year or two later.

I guess I didn't make my point clear. I'm concerned that the team may feel it's best option is to re-sign Amare with the intention of moving him once Nash is used up. Like you, I have serious doubts as to whether he can be moved at that time.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

But he isn't. Scoring 20 points a game is nice, but do you want to pay him a million bucks per point? Considering he can't do anything else except score? How is that work the "max". (And let's all agree that the max number is the maximum dollar amount he can receive from the Suns--it's not worth haggling about what the "max" is to different people--it's still a simple number)

Amare is a flawed player, no question. However, once you get past a very small handful of players his game is as impactful as anyone in the league. If you consider the "max" as something that should only go to a player capable of putting you on your back and dragging you to a championship than Amare falls well short but I didn't think that's what the "max" was supposed to be for.

Beyond his scoring, he forces the opposing team to account for him at all times. He's also capable of carrying a team for stretches (witness the 2nd half of this season). I'm well aware of his faults, I've pointed them out many times myself. But, there just aren't that many players in the league that are better than him, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely do not want to sign him for anything more than a 6yr/90mil deal (and that still scares me) but the next CBA and Amare's injury risk are the reasons I'd be against anything more.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Like you, I have serious doubts as to whether he can be moved at that time.

Okay, right, but you suggested that it's because of upcoming changes to the CBA, whereas in my opinion a super-maxed Stoudemire would be untradeable even under the status quo. (Needless to say, the new CBA is likely to make matters even worse.)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Okay, right, but you suggested that it's because of upcoming changes to the CBA, whereas in my opinion a super-maxed Stoudemire would be untradeable even under the status quo. (Needless to say, the new CBA is likely to make matters even worse.)

Yeah, we disagree here. Although, I added the stipulation that it's an injury free Amare under discussion. I still believe, even with the super max, that under the current CBA an injury free Amare is worth the super max and would have reasonable trade value. There are only 4 or 5 franchises that could afford to pay a non-Kobe kind of player that much money but they are out there, IMO.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah, we disagree here. Although, I added the stipulation that it's an injury free Amare under discussion. I still believe, even with the super max, that under the current CBA an injury free Amare is worth the super max and would have reasonable trade value. There are only 4 or 5 franchises that could afford to pay a non-Kobe kind of player that much money but they are out there, IMO.

Steve

I guess my question to you then is, in your opinion, why is a healthy Amare worth 21 million per, but 15 million per is low?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I guess my question to you then is, in your opinion, why is a healthy Amare worth 21 million per, but 15 million per is low?

It was a hypothetical situation. Even healthy, Amare isn't worth the max today because the upcoming CBA is likely to seriously alter the salary situation. Other than Lebron, Durant and Howard I wouldn't risk a max year/max dollar deal on any player in today's game until we find out how much the economy will shape the next players agreement.

I think starting somewhere just under 15 mil annually on a max length deal is about the most I'd be willing to pay someone like Amare or Bosh (Wade because of injuries and Kobe because of mileage would fall here also). Even a 6 year/90 mil deal for Amare would come with significant risks but they're risks we'd have to take IMO.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

It was a hypothetical situation. Even healthy, Amare isn't worth the max today because the upcoming CBA is likely to seriously alter the salary situation. Other than Lebron, Durant and Howard I wouldn't risk a max year/max dollar deal on any player in today's game until we find out how much the economy will shape the next players agreement.

I think starting somewhere just under 15 mil annually on a max length deal is about the most I'd be willing to pay someone like Amare or Bosh (Wade because of injuries and Kobe because of mileage would fall here also). Even a 6 year/90 mil deal for Amare would come with significant risks but they're risks we'd have to take IMO.

Steve

But you have continually claimed that Amare is definitely worth the super max. Sorry, but it's just confusing.