Goran Dragic: Good or Bad Deal?

[slinslin]

Personally I am not impressed. Yes he is our most effective player this season but that means nothing. A somewhat inconsisten 14/6 is not impressive, I'd say that is barely earning his contract.

Can Dragic be a player that is a focus of the team? I think clearly not. He has no presence, does not command respect from his peers and has not been effective when not given the ball all the time.

Imo he needs to get better playing without the ball in his hands because he is not good enough to dominate posessions.

While he is earning his contract, I am not sure it was a good move for us because it is a sizeable contract that limits our options and Dragic is not good enough that you could say the position is locked for years. Dragic is probably a solid average starter, not sure if that is good enough to build a very good team around him.

Basically my thinking is that Dragic lacks star qualities. The Suns need a star shooting guard. Someone like Kobe or Harden. How efficient would Dragic be when he has to give up the ball consistently to the other guard?
We heard Dragic complain this season when not given the ball all the time to initiate the offense but with a star shooting guard he naturally will have to play more off the ball.

 

[hcsilla]

I think that Dragic is a nice 2nd-3rd option in a good team. He doesn't make too much sense for a bad team like the Suns other than waiting for better times to come.

He seems quite versatile too, can play some traditional PG and initiate the offense, can play-off the ball and be a 2nd-3rd option in offense and especially useful in an up-tempo style because of his pace, good size and finishing ability.

Besides he is a willing defender and based on eye-test maybe even an above average one, especially if he could get some help from his frontcourt.

And yes, I do think that he would be more effective with Harden as a true star next to him.

Overall, I think that signing him on that contract was a good move and it will pay its dividends more when the management (this or the next one) can build a good team in Phoenix.

 

[SunsTzu]

Per 36

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Steph Curry 2012-13 24 33 33 1248 6.6 15.3 .435 2.9 6.3 .450 3.0 3.3 .896 0.6 3.5 4.1 6.2 1.5 0.2 2.9 2.4 19.1
2 Goran Dragic 2012-13 26 34 34 1104 5.7 12.6 .455 1.5 4.5 .328 3.2 4.5 .710 0.8 2.4 3.2 7.1 1.8 0.3 2.5 2.9 16.1
3 Jrue Holiday 2012-13 22 32 32 1212 7.0 15.4 .454 1.1 3.0 .366 2.4 3.1 .769 1.1 2.9 4.0 8.5 1.2 0.4 3.6 2.3 17.5
4 B. Jennings 2012-13 23 33 33 1251 6.3 15.6 .405 1.8 5.1 .360 2.7 3.2 .838 0.9 2.5 3.4 5.6 2.0 0.2 2.4 1.7 17.2
5 Ty Lawson 2012-13 25 35 34 1203 5.6 13.4 .420 0.9 2.9 .316 2.4 3.4 .702 0.7 2.0 2.7 7.1 1.6 0.1 2.8 1.9 14.6
6 Jeremy Lin 2012-13 24 35 35 1157 5.1 11.6 .438 0.9 3.3 .283 2.4 3.0 .800 0.6 3.6 4.2 6.9 2.1 0.5 3.4 2.7 13.4


All these guys were signed this off-season for more than Dragic is making with the exception of Jennings who is soon to be a RFA, most of them signed for far more.

I'm actually very happy with Dragic's play and contract as I don't think it's wise to invest heavily in a pg(with exception of a couple of players). The problem isn't Dragic but the team that he is surrounded by. To me he should be playing a role similar to Conley but instead he's forced into a role of being the teams best player.

 

[elindholm]

You can't just play 12 D-League guys while waiting around for your next franchise player. Someone has to take the floor. Dragic is playing around the level of an average starting PG, and making less money. I was against his signing this summer, but so far he has worked out okay.

 

[slinslin]

The question is what you believe in:

Do you think production and salary is a linear correlation? or exponential?

think signing average players to medium contracts is probably bad business.

And it also looks like the NBA is getting more and more PG oriented. And while I also thought Dragic looked like a bargain and average starting PG we have seen him getting obliterated by Jrue Holiday, Brandon Jennings, Chris Paul and others...

Look at the amount of quality PGs

Paul, Irving, Lillard, Rose, Westbrook, Jennings, Bledsoe, Holiday, Curry, Rondo, Wall, Parker, Nash, Felton, Dragic, Williams, Lin, Rubio, Shved, Lawson, Conley, Vasquez, Lowry, Walker.. (Calderon, Hill, Knight, Collison )

Those are 23(27) PGs and Dragic is not a clearly better than any of them. With 30 teams in the league calling Dragic average at his position as a starter might be a stretch.

If I had to rank them in order of my own preference regardless of contracts, not going to look up any statistics right now

1st tier Paul, Westbrook, Irving, Rose, Lillard
2nd tier Bledsoe, Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Rubio, Holiday, Curry, Williams, Parker
3rd tier Vasquez, Walker, Nash, Felton, Conley, Lawson, Dragic, Shved, Lin, Calderon, Hill, Knight, Collison

Bledsoe should be our #1 offseason target. He fits the rebuilding motive. He is incredibly efficient player that needs more minutes and young. His PER is insanely high. (Actually just looked it up his PER dropped to 20 which is still high, earlier it was up around near 24)

 

[Mainstreet]

You can't just play 12 D-League guys while waiting around for your next franchise player. Someone has to take the floor. Dragic is playing around the level of an average starting PG, and making less money. I was against his signing this summer, but so far he has worked out okay.

Well said.

 

[hcsilla]

The question is what you believe in:

Do you think production and salary is a linear correlation? or exponential?

think signing average players to medium contracts is probably bad business.

And it also looks like the NBA is getting more and more PG oriented. And while I also thought Dragic looked like a bargain and average starting PG we have seen him getting obliterated by Jrue Holiday, Brandon Jennings, Chris Paul and others...

Look at the amount of quality PGs

Paul, Irving, Lillard, Rose, Westbrook, Jennings, Bledsoe, Holiday, Curry, Rondo, Wall, Parker, Nash, Felton, Dragic, Williams, Lin, Rubio, Shved, Lawson, Conley, Vasquez, Lowry, Walker.. (Calderon, Hill, Knight, Collison )

Those are 23(27) PGs and Dragic is not a clearly better than any of them. With 30 teams in the league calling Dragic average at his position as a starter might be a stretch.

If I had to rank them in order of my own preference regardless of contracts, not going to look up any statistics right now

1st tier Paul, Westbrook, Irving, Rose, Lillard
2nd tier Bledsoe, Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Rubio, Holiday, Curry, Williams, Parker
3rd tier Vasquez, Walker, Nash, Felton, Conley, Lawson, Dragic, Shved, Lin, Calderon, Hill, Knight, Collison

Bledsoe should be our #1 offseason target. He fits the rebuilding motive. He is incredibly efficient player that needs more minutes and young. His PER is insanely high.

Knight and George Hill are not even PG's. Calderon and Vasquez can't guard a chair. Dragic is obviously a better player than Felton, Lin, Shved and Collison.

Walker, Conley and Lawson are at least debatable. Post-injury Rubio is as well. Jennigs too. Bledsoe is super-athletic and a suffocating defender, can drive and finish but not sure he can run the offense and his J doesn't have range. He may be an excellent fit next to a star SG with excellent passing like Harden (don't tell this to the Rockets because their future backcourt (with Bledsoe possibly) might be formidable...or ours if we wouldn't have been lame when we had the chance of acquiring Harden).

That pretty much puts Dragic at least between your 2nd and 3rd tier.

 

[slinslin]

Dragic Drtg 109

Dragic has been terrible defensively too that does not sperate him from Vasquez, who is regularly putting up near triple double stat lines recently or Calderon

 

[slinslin]

Nevermind Bledsoe is RFA in 2014, not 2013... too bad for some reason I thought he was RFA this year.
Jennings then would be a good target, he is improving and vocal.

 

[SunsTzu]

Dragic Drtg 109

Dragic has been terrible defensively too that does not sperate him from Vasquez, who is regularly putting up near triple double stat lines recently or Calderon

Drtg such a useless stat, especially for a guard. How do you expect Dragic, or any PG to have an impact playing with such a porous interior? Tucker must be an even worse defender than Dragic with his 110 drtg right?

The Suns main problem in defending opposing PGs is off the P&R as it has been for years. The bigs are absolutely terrible at hedging and recovering off the P&R. I often see them wash out the guards who are trying to recover as they retreat to the paint.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

You can't just play 12 D-League guys while waiting around for your next franchise player. Someone has to take the floor. Dragic is playing around the level of an average starting PG, and making less money. I was against his signing this summer, but so far he has worked out okay.

Yep, and it's really hard to run an offense without one decent scorer. Goran is much more the solution than the problem.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You can't just play 12 D-League guys while waiting around for your next franchise player. Someone has to take the floor. Dragic is playing around the level of an average starting PG, and making less money. I was against his signing this summer, but so far he has worked out okay.

This.

 

[slinslin]

Yep, and it's really hard to run an offense without one decent scorer. Goran is much more the solution than the problem.

you are paying Goran 8M$ per season and he plays up to that contract but in the NBA you probably need 2 if not 3 max slots to be successful.
And I don't think Goran is a top 3 player on a good team.

Can you afford to pay a #4 or #5 guy 8M$ per? Probably not so I don't think Goran really is a long term solution. He is a value signing and if you find a team desperate for a PG you might take the deal if it is good value.

I often see fans writing about how the Suns should trade anyone excluding Goran Dragic but to me he is in the same boat as Gortat, Dudley and anyone else.

Think 2013 draft - the clear cut best player on the board at either lottery pick is a PG, would you pass because we have Dragic?

What I am trying to say is : In the NBA you pay top dollar for the premium players and pay little to the support guys. Signing those average players to considerable deals very rarely is a good idea unless that player clearly outplays the contract.

 

[SunsTzu]

Can you afford to pay a #4 or #5 guy 8M$ per? Probably not

Number of players making more than Goran on contending teams:

Thunder: 4
Clips: 4
Spurs: 4
Grizz: 4
Jazz: 4
Heat: 3
Knicks: 3
Celtics: 4
Bulls: 4

 

[Chaplin]

Sometimes (or most of the time), slinslin pulls this stuff out just to complain. He must lead such a strange life--consistently negative with nothing but statistics to get by.

Of all the things we have wrong with this team, he starts in on Dragic? In the list of 100 things wrong with this team, Goran is probably #85.

 

[slinslin]

Number of players making more than Goran on contending teams:

Thunder: 4
Clips: 4
Spurs: 4
Grizz: 4
Jazz: 4
Heat: 3
Knicks: 3
Celtics: 4
Bulls: 4

Half of those are not contending.

The other half does not care about the luxury tax.

Two of them are below the magic number which would be 4.

And some of them are already looking to cut salary which is why names like Gay and Deng continune to show up in trade rumors.

 

[SunsTzu]

Half of those are not contending.

The other half does not care about the luxury tax.

Two of them are below the magic number which would be 4.

And some of them are already looking to cut salary which is why names like Gay and Deng continune to show up in trade rumors.

Some of them may not be legit contenders but all the legit contenders are listed.

1 of the 2 listed has a trio that isn't going to be replicated by any team under the current CBA, the other is the oldest team in league history. Is it your contention that the Suns should be signing aging vets like the Knicks?

Regardless of what the teams intentions are every contender is paying 3 or more players more than Dragic as are most other teams in the NBA.

Dragic's contract is perfectly fine given his production. The idea that his contract is going to prevent the team from being good is absolutely absurd, especially coming from someone who defended the Beasley signing.

 

[slinslin]

Sometime

​

s (or most of the time), slinslin pulls this stuff out just to complain. He must lead such a strange life--consistently negative with nothing but statistics to get by.

Of all the things we have wrong with this team, he starts in on Dragic? In the list of 100 things wrong with this team, Goran is probably #85.

I start on Dragic? Not at all.

Fact is Dragic gets away with poor play for whatever reason. The perception is that he is a bright spot but reality is that he is underperforming almost everyones expectations. If you go back you will find that almost everyone expected more than 14/6 with poor defense. 18/8 and good defense were mentioned most often.
And this team is so bad he had all the chances to shoulder the load and put up some big games but he is struggling like everybody and like I said doesnt seem to command respect. The team needs him to step up and lead right now.

 

[elindholm]

you are paying Goran 8M$ per season and he plays up to that contract but in the NBA you probably need 2 if not 3 max slots to be successful.
And I don't think Goran is a top 3 player on a good team.

Can you afford to pay a #4 or #5 guy 8M$ per?

It's $7.5M per, and there are no raises, so in NBA money he'll be making less every year.

Besides, there is no chance whatsoever of the Suns landing three max players before Dragic's contract is up. It would be a miracle if even one max FA signed, given how bad the Suns' outlook is, so that leaves the draft. A franchise player drafted next summer won't get his big raise until 2017, long after Dragic's current deal ends.

Dragic isn't interfering with the Suns' long-term future in any way, unless you say that maybe he's responsible for a couple more wins per season, which hurts their draft position.

If you go back you will find that almost everyone expected more than 14/6 with poor defense.

For the record, I had lower expectations for Dragic than almost anyone, and went on and on about how I hated the signing. Then when the real numbers came out, it wasn't so bad as first reported, so I toned it down a bit. But I expected erratic mediocrity, and that's what we have.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think Dragic's success last year as a starter was not a fluke, but he had something with the Rockets that he really doesn't have here. He had guys like Budinger and Coutney Lee who are athletic guys that can score on the break as well as catch and shoot at the 3 point line. He had Parsons who is a versatile scorer as well as a good catch and shoot 3 point shooter. He had Scola like he has here, but this team lacks 3 point shooters and especially catch and shoot 3 point shooters. Jared Dudley is probably the only guy on this team that is a solid catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Point being there is absolutely no floor spacing on this team and the only way for this team to score well is to have tremendous ball movement from the whole team and not just 1 drive and kick from their PG.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Dragic's success last year as a starter was not a fluke, but he had something with the Rockets that he really doesn't have here. He had guys like Budinger and Coutney Lee who are athletic guys that can score on the break as well as catch and shoot at the 3 point line. He had Parsons who is a versatile scorer as well as a good catch and shoot 3 point shooter. He had Scola like he has here, but this team lacks 3 point shooters and especially catch and shoot 3 point shooters. Jared Dudley is probably the only guy on this team that is a solid catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Point being there is absolutely no floor spacing on this team and the only way for this team to score well is to have tremendous ball movement from the whole team and not just 1 drive and kick from their PG.

Agree. Dragic would be a much better player if he had some shooters around him. I never expected him to be a star player, just a solid PG.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dislike his mopey attitude he has out there on the court when things get rough but I am okay with his current contract and play. Dragic is a newly minted contract that is actually moveable on the trade market, which stands in stark contrast to just about every deal the Suns have handed out in the last 3-4 years.

And I agree with the sentiment that if the team around him were better he would certainly look better. Lots of guys on this team stop the ball when they get it. Dudley is basically the only guy who can catch and shoot. Our ball rotation is bad, our court spacing is really bad. Makes life tough on a point guard.

 

[hcsilla]

Dragic Drtg 109

Dragic has been terrible defensively too that does not sperate him from Vasquez, who is regularly putting up near triple double stat lines recently or Calderon

Last season Dragic was an average defender while Calderon and Vasquez were among the worst at PG.

I don't know the advanced def stats this season but the eye-test seems to show that Vasquez and Calderon did not improve while for Dragic at least the effort is there and you can't forget that the Suns team defense behind him collapsed totally this season.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's $7.5M per, and there are no raises, so in NBA money he'll be making less every year.

Besides, there is no chance whatsoever of the Suns landing three max players before Dragic's contract is up. It would be a miracle if even one max FA signed, given how bad the Suns' outlook is, so that leaves the draft. A franchise player drafted next summer won't get his big raise until 2017, long after Dragic's current deal ends.

EXACTLY. Remember this was already supposed to happen for us. We had this cap room, we were supposed to sign all these top tier free agents and we ended up with none.

Why do people continue to think just because the Suns clear up cap space free agents are going to come here? We had our once every 15 to 20 year luck signing with Nash like the Cards signed Warner.

Dragic isn't interfering with the Suns' long-term future in any way, unless you say that maybe he's responsible for a couple more wins per season, which hurts their draft position.

For the record, I had lower expectations for Dragic than almost anyone, and went on and on about how I hated the signing. Then when the real numbers came out, it wasn't so bad as first reported, so I toned it down a bit. But I expected erratic mediocrity, and that's what we have.

Agree with this too. I had low expectations but have been impressed by his improvement. However, I never expected him to be the Suns future at the position and I think his contract is OK.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I dislike his mopey attitude he has out there on the court when things get rough but I am okay with his current contract and play. Dragic is a newly minted contract that is actually moveable on the trade market, which stands in stark contrast to just about every deal the Suns have handed out in the last 3-4 years.

And I agree with the sentiment that if the team around him were better he would certainly look better. Lots of guys on this team stop the ball when they get it. Dudley is basically the only guy who can catch and shoot. Our ball rotation is bad, our court spacing is really bad. Makes life tough on a point guard.

I loved his attitude and his impact on the game early in the season but something has changed the chemistry out there. These guys really don't look like they like each other and there are a couple of people that appear to be playing for a contract elsewhere. This team hasn't exactly given up but they've stopped being a team IMO and I see no reason to believe they will come together at any time soon.

Seriously, other than Tucker and Scola, there isn't a player out there that isn't underachieving. That's a far cry from the first few weeks when they all seemed to be in each other's corner and despite some horrible performances by a couple of players they were competitive in each game.

Steve